Today, my guest is Selena Pepić. She is a computer science graduate from ETH Zurich, a rates trader at JP Morgan in Paris, and a member of the Serbian national mixed, women's, and junior teams. She won the gold medal at the World Youth Open Championship in Opatija 2015 (girls U26), the bronze medal at the World University Championship in Lodz in 2016, and also won an event at the Junior World Championship in 2016. Join us as we talk about Selena’s background, playing bridge in Paris, her thoughts on the American bridge community, winning women’s events, and more.
[04.08] Selena’s background – We start the conversation with a brief bio about Selena and her first junior world bridge championship in 2016.
[10.27] Bridge in Paris – Selena talks about playing bridge in Paris and how the division system works.
[20.51] American Sponsor – Selena shares the story of how she met Steve, her American sponsor.
[23.37] Expectations – Selena’s thoughts on the American bridge community as national champions
[31.55] Women’s Event – We talk about Selena’s thoughts on winning a women’s event in New Orleans.
[35.20] Professional Events – Selena talks about the professional bridge events & culture in Europe before the USA
[41.13] Playing with Family & Friends – Selena talks about how she played card games with her grandparents and later with high school friends.
[50.09] Catan – A multiplayer board game
Resources
Connect with Selena
LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/selena-pepic/
The Setting Trick - Selena Pepić - Part 1
John McAllister 00:08
I'm here with Selena Pepic, who has quickly become one of my favorite people to see at a tournament. And I'm delighted to have the winner of the most recent women's pairs at the New Orleans NABC, Selena. Here from Paris, originally from Serbia. Thanks for joining me, Solana.
Selena Pepić 00:38
Thanks for having me, John.
John McAllister 00:42
I just before we start, I want to start out with a little story, a quick story about you. So originally, this interview is taking place at 10am Eastern time. This interview is taking place on Saturday, April 15. And originally, we had scheduled our conversation to take place yesterday. And as it happened, I got invited to play a match against Michael Rosenberg and Max Schireson with my partner for the upcoming U.S. trials at the same time that we scheduled the match. And so I was kind of like, shoot, let me text you. And I said, I really hate to ask you this and think you’ll understand. And I explained the situation and you said, your response was, “John, please. I am offended. You have to ask me to understand, aren't we friends at all? It's Michael Rosenberg. You can't miss that. Even if it's our last chance to ever speak.” So you are a dyed in the wool bridge lover like me. You said Michael is one of your favorite players. Tell me about yourself. Like what? Tell me about your journey with bridge. Yeah, whatever you want to take from what I just said.
Selena Pepić 02:12
Well, from that side, yeah. Michael Rosenberg is indeed like I was I was a super fun girl. Before I read, that's the only book I read. His book is literally the only book I read. And then like, he's also a lot on Bridge Winners. So he was all like, he was always replying and commenting on Junior posts and everything. So I was extremely like I was like, if Michael Rosenberg says that, that's how it should be played. Like, there is like no. And then I completely disagreed on one board. And then after that, I had to like have multiple favorite bridge players. Before that, I was like, it's Michael Rosenberg, and then 10, 20 places. And then …
John McAllister 02:56
How did you come to read Michael's book in the first place? Like how did he become an authority to you?
Selena Pepić 03:04
I think just I think I played like a tournament in Budapest in a world national European national championship. And there was like a sign with books. And I would just glance into multiple books and like, I love bridge. But like, I just can't have like, dry book with bridge problem after bridge problems to bridge problem. And this book had a story and it had a story like, what kind of story do you want if you're, if you don't like if you want actually some more philosophical aspect of bridge and I really enjoy, like, philosophical approach. And that's like, I think as philosophical as it gets, so I've just immediately bought it.
John McAllister 03:49
When do you think that was?
Selena Pepić 03:51
That was 2016 I didn't read it. 2016. But I bought it that year. Yeah, that was my first.
John McAllister 04:02
That's it.
Selena Pepić 04:03
That was that was my first national tournament. Representing Serbia.
John McAllister 04:08
You started you sent me an email. Like I asked you some questions, some pre questions. In your first year of playing bridge, you won an event at the Junior World Championships. Is that right?
Selena Pepić 04:25
Yes. So I want that was the Junior thing. So 2016 was my first like, non-Junior events when I started playing for Serbia. So that's what I meant by like the first tournament actually representing. I was there and like all the best players were there. Not playing women's events, but it was still like, you know, for me, it was something really big and when I when I played in the past year, which was the tournament I played before, it's like I didn't know anyone like I was just there, taking cards and playing them and like, Zia could have been in front of me I wouldn't recognize him, I wouldn't be able to do so. So for me, this was like a big thing because it was like, I'm actually representing my country. And these guys are geniuses and they claim at trick three. And I'm like, what’s going on? I'm so smart. I can't claim at trick three. It was shocking.
John McAllister 05:21
What was the event actually then like what you said it was a national? National Team?
Selena Pepić 05:28
Yeah. European national championship like qualifiers for the Bermuda Bowl and Venice cup. So I played for women's in Serbia with Jovana.
John McAllister 05:38
In your second, you've been playing bridge for all of two years at this point.
Selena Pepić 05:43
Yes, I've been playing bridge for two years.
John McAllister 05:47
And you're playing on your country's women's team.
Selena Pepić 05:51
So like playing for Serbian Women's team wasn't really like biggest thing. We so we played Jovana and I play the first tournament after a year I played bridge. And we play the ladies there championship of Serbia. She called me and I said yes. And then we went there. And I was like, we were gonna be bottom last. But whatever. And then we just won the tournament. And I was like, wow, okay. That was interesting. Yeah. Then that was like when we decided we might actually start playing together.
John McAllister 06:31
This is the woman that you play with. That you play with in the United States. Jovana? You call her Yo for short?
06:43
Yeah I call her Yovana.
John McAllister 06:46
But you were saying you referring to her by another name.
Selena Pepić 06:49
I call her Yola. Sometimes. I call her all the names to be honest. But like, it's similar name to your teammate for from the Board-a-Match, so your Jovanka it's just like extra k?
John McAllister 07:06
Yeah. Got it. That's helpful.
Selena Pepić 07:09
She's actually originally Serbian as well. So it's basically same name.
John McAllister 07:14
Yeah, I know. And in the process of like, doing research on you, I came to realize I have a friend here who has a Serbian woman who lives in her on her property. And I didn't realize that there was like, there was war in Serbia. When you were when you were a child?
Selena Pepić 07:36
Yeah, yeah. It's actually funnily enough, my first memory of her it's like, sirens before the bombing. Is like kind of probably get stuck all the time. Like, I probably didn't know what's going on. But like, all the panic is kind of probably was like, I don't know, influencing me remembering that thing. But yeah, it was it was not ideal back then. And I mean, it's very scary thinking that it was just like, all the wars and Balkan are like swept into 30 years ago, which is so scary. Thinking about that like that. My parents already went through a couple of wars there. And it's just like, crazy to think about. I mean, some of that is, I think, coming to an end, the organized play today, tournament in Zagreb, in Croatia, alongside with, like, 10 20 30, other Serbians, and we have amazing relationships with them. They're coming in three weeks playing tournaments in Serbia. I mean, they are definitely my favorite people. If I have, if I choose to go to any tournaments like a bridge festival, I would always choose Croatia. So on that note, things are getting better. Some other notes, things are not getting better. Politics is not getting better are not getting better. But yeah,
John McAllister 08:59
We have that here, too. It's actually worse. Somehow, so the war was actually with Croatia, yours is that who you guys were fighting.
Selena Pepić 09:11
So there was like a war, beginning of 90s it was mostly in Bosnia. And it was in partially in Croatia as well. I don't think there was war where I live in Serbia, because my family, so my father's side of family, they live in Bosnia. So when the war started, they moved to Serbia. So and they moved because of war, but it was like a whole Balkan kind of thing, but mostly concentrated in Bosnia, and then some of it in Croatia. And then, late 90s, there was bombing of Serbia, because of problems in Kosovo, basically. But that had nothing to do with well, almost nothing to do with Bosnia or Croatia. But yeah, it was. It was. I'm not sure if there was like a prime minister President, I'm not even sure it's quite bad. I'm not sure. But yeah, he didn't want to find something. And then there was some problems between Albanians and Kosovo and Serbia and Kosovo. And that led to bombing. Scary.
John McAllister 10:27
I bet. Yeah. And now you're in Paris.
Selena Pepić 10:32
And now I’m in Paris. Yeah.
John McAllister 10:34
I understand there's some there's some rioting going on in Paris these days.
Selena Pepić 10:39
Oh, my God. Yeah. Yesterday was like, it was actually my street. So I couldn't sleep until I took like, a long time. They were like, just going back and forth with my street. And yeah, it's not it's not ideal. In that regard, seems like it's not gonna calm down very soon, either. So it's like, I'm following all the all the messaging around things like, but yeah, it's, they're protesting, because retirement age. Which comes 62 to 64. Even though like most of the world is at 67? already? I guess. Yeah. They don’t want to work when they're 64. But yeah. I mean, to be honest, like young generations and actually enjoys, they're like, Oh, can I see your party? And you're going out and practicing with everyone? So yeah.
John McAllister 11:44
How is your bridge? How's your bridge in Paris? How long have you been there? How, what kind of bridge community? Or do you have there?
Selena Pepić 11:56
I know most of the good players here. But there is not like that live, like strong club game like in New York for example, like most of the very good players wouldn't go to club, they would play like national divisions and stuff. And there is like a problem there regarding the need to have fundraising in order to play like top division. And so given that I didn't play in France before I could enter or like division four probably, like, you can't, you need to like jump from division to division. And that takes one year to like, go up one division. So I tried to like, at the Junior or bla bla bla bla bla to, like, convince them to play in Division Three, but like, they just want to let me which is similar in like we I was actually it was quite funny, because my good friend and partner for Strausberg. He didn't play in U.S. for two years. And then he wants to play Platinum Pairs. And they are like, well, you don't have enough platinum points to play platinum pairs. And he was like, This is ridiculous. The whole system is ridiculous, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, coming for it from a French person. You know? We're like, high cause can’t move up in division. But yeah, so I played, I played couple of club games with him. And I played mixed teams with amazing player. And very nice partner, Frederick Walker.
John McAllister 13:37
So the the division thing, how long does that last? Like? How long does it take? You said, it takes a year to get to the next division, like, what do you have to do to get to the next division?
Selena Pepić 13:46
Yeah, so you play three or four weekends. And then, like, first five, go to the division up and the last five from the, like, from the Division goes to division down, like below or something like that? I'm like, don't take what I say for granted.
John McAllister 14:08
Is it Team event?
Selena Pepić 14:10
That one is pairs, but there is there's teams as well. Yeah, there is like they have actually a lot of tournaments and a lot of divisions. I think they also have like 100 and something thousand players so like, registered ones. So like, they are they are quite big. They have like I would say when I Googled like a bridge club in Paris, we were like seven or eight like open. Like that something was going on there either classes or I don't know, tournaments or some sometimes like just I don't know weaker tournaments that not everyone can answer and a lot of things in general interest.
John McAllister 14:51
I looked up your Bridge Base playing record and said you hadn't played on Bridge Base in the last month either.
Selena Pepić 14:58
Ah, you see, I always say to Jovana about this. And I say it's creepy. Like, don't you think it's creepy? Like, every I'm like, I want to play a video. I'm like, I don't have a fake account. She does. And she sometimes goes, and she plays from fake account. And I'm like, I want to play from fake accounts sometimes. So like, because I get I want to play something stupid and dumb with like, 10% of my brain power. So like, nobody can check, like how many very stupid mistakes I made. I don't know, if you like go to Bridge Base Online and always play seriously. like, do you? Do you not to like just play randomly, like 10 seconds per board thing?
John McAllister 15:41
Before I answer that question, let me defend myself, I am interviewing you for my podcast. Like it's not creepy to like, go on Bridge Base. And see, like, I'm trying to get a sense of your bridge playing. I've gone to your ACBL Live, you've played 40 events in the ACBL, you are eligible for the platinum pairs. You did about as well in the platinum pairs as I did. And yeah, so how are you getting? Like you, you've had a ton of posts on Bridge Winners, like bidding problems, particularly, like how are you getting? How what how are you? Like, you love bridge, but you also have a job, which you’re trading rates. So like, you were in New Orleans for I think, all 10 days. So and then you're going back to Serbia in a couple of weeks for the festival that you help organize. How do you how do you juggle bridge and work?
Selena Pepić 16:51
Yeah, I think that you didn't ask me how I like Paris. So if you ask me, How do I like Paris, I would say I don't like it at all. But I'm here for 45 days of vacation. Which I guess if you work in JP Morgan in Paris, which is crazy, right? It's quite a crazy number. But it's something with a low and, and stuff. So that's why I'm here basically. So I can do like three nationals a year, and then you will be on our world championship and then one festival, and then possibly we go skiing. So that all fits in. So I was like, okay, Paris is fine. So that's regarding tournament. No, nobody speaks English.
John McAllister 17:49
Wow. That's amazing. 45 days of vacation. Wow.
Selena Pepić 17:51
Yeah. What was the question? Yes. Regarding the bridge base online. Yeah, before, like some, maybe a year ago. I was like, addicted to challenges and stuff. Like I would play probably like 160 boards a day. And then whenever when I was studying, I would play like, five times then more just to like, get anger out on myself. And then I would end up usually more angry after the session of that board. But I just find it very counterproductive. So I don't do that anymore. I honestly I opened. I don't know if I played or like even challenged or anything similar and replays online for months. I opened it to watch on Vugraph. But like, I haven't played much. I do a lot of Cue Bids. So the bidding app you are probably familiar with, right? Actually, I've seen you there. That I do probably like three hours today.
John McAllister 19:04
Three hours a day on Cue Bids? Who are you bidding with? You're playing the the mixed teams in Strasburg with this French fellow. So you're probably bidding with him. Jovana.
Selena Pepić 19:17
No, I'm bidding with Jovana. I'm bidding with her probably more than with anyone else. I’m bidding with Mikael, sometimes.
John McAllister 19:26
Mikael Rimstedt.
Selena Pepić 19:29
He introduced me to the app because it's, it's, it's coming from the Swedish community. So yeah. I'm sometimes bidding with him bidding with Sikorsky. Sometimes our friends from Croatia that is like younger than me but play for open team. And he's a very good player. I play with Steve sometimes a bit sometimes with other juniors from my team on not that often because I usually like to be beating with a better than myself or with my partner. I'm very sad now since recently with some other players as well, yeah,
John McAllister 20:16
So Steve is your American? Go ahead. Yeah, you actually what? Yeah, I'm saying I'm gonna say this
Selena Pepić 20:26
Recently I'm bidding with some other friends that I met. I mean, actually, like many people don't even know about yet. So when I showed him the app, they're like, oh my god, this is amazing. And then before they bring their regular partner see, and before they like get, like, completely hooked up on the app. They try bidding with me. And I'm like, yeah, so we keep this guy.
John McAllister 20:51
Mikael Rimstedt actually introduced me to it to Cuebids. We did a one of those, like daily challenges together. In Arizona right before the tournament, we were out there to play some golf. So Steve is your American sponsor? How did you guys get hooked up?
Selena Pepić 21:13
So I was in New York for a month last summer, doing some training with company and stuff. So Providence, just like what couple of hours from New York and this tournament, this training finished just before Providence. So I actually plan to play you know that I actually plan to play the pairs with Mikael. And then I told him, I can't play that because I have some exams and stuff on just before just on Friday of the tournaments. So I arrived on Sunday, and I just arrived there. I didn't have any plans, any agreements on anything for the whole week. But I was like, it's my first national. Even if I just sit next to like the and watch, which I did on Sunday, I was just I arrived like at 1pm or so. I just sat next to the chair. And I was just like, dragging it around following See, I'm like, looking at what he's doing. I'm like, I'm still a happy person. But then I played. So I went to like find a pick up partner, even though everyone was like, Don't do that. Don’t do that ever. Eventually, I did it on Monday, because I was like, I feel like play something like everyone was golfing that day. And I went on Monday, I found a pick up partner. And we won the first session of regional. And the guy played something like he didn't know what support double is but like he also he's, by the way, he's decent card player. Like, very decent. That was like a couple of times he played something. I was like, wow. But like bidding was like diamond, a heart. And he'd bid one spade with four cards. Now that okay, and then we're dealing with diamond, the heart and he'd bid double with four cards. And I was like, No, I just want to ask, like, how, like, what's the difference? And he's like, Well, double is showing clubs and spades because like it's a takeout of other two suits. And one spade is only spades. And I was like, Okay, I see like, bidding is not gonna be a big one here. He was fine.
John McAllister 23:38
You didn't try to fix him. You didn't try to change his mind about his bidding. You just sort of went you just wanted to know what you needed to know. Yeah, no, I'm not wanting to know what to expect.
Selena Pepić 23:48
Yeah, it's just like, it's just about managing expectations. In general, which I know some other people do with me, as well. They're like, Oh, can you play this? And then, you know, they try to figure out what's where it's when their expectations. But yeah, I played one board against Steve. And it was like, some three No Trump and I endplayed him. And he just doesn't like being endplayed He was like very angry. And, and then there was some time left off after a tournament and after the match, and he asked me where I'm from, and I said, I'm from Serbia. And he was like, Oh, I love Novak Jokovich. And my partner said he doesn't like Novak Jokovich. And I was like, Well, next time I'm, I'm playing with you because you like Novak Jokovich. Funnily enough, after a tournament, we start talking. Yeah, that's how we started playing together.
John McAllister 24:46
It was amusing to me looking through your ACBL live that you played like when I the first event you played in in the ACBL was the Monday open pairs that you're talking about. And then I saw you played in the Tuesday top flight pairs. You know, it's like you come all the way from, but it's cool that you I mean, it sounds like your your work sets up a lot for a bridge, you know, like you happen to do a training program that ended right at right before then NABC, and then you've got 45 days of a vacation. Yeah.
Selena Pepić 25:23
Jovana and I did plan to come to that NABC in Providence. But then I didn't know when the training is gonna end or not. And we just said, let's, let's just go to Phoenix. So this just lined up nicely, but we were planning this for, like, some time already know, yeah.
John McAllister 25:44
What was your expectation for the nationals? And then versus what the reality was?
Selena Pepić 25:51
In terms of like, the field or the, or everything,
John McAllister 25:55
Whatever, whatever comes to mind? Yeah.
Selena Pepić 25:59
Well, I would say like, I definitely heard a lot about this already. So I would say I was pretty confident about what I'm going to find when I arrive. It's like, sometimes it's a tougher field than I expect. And sometimes it's less tough. And I expect sometimes, like I didn't know what to expect regarding American community, but I haven't met. And like, sometimes I am surprised regarding. Definitely regarding style, for example, it's very conservative compared to Europe, like, in U.S. opening two spades is relatively serious, in Europe, opening three spades is not serious at all. Wise, it's much more concerned with these less conventions, more natural kind of reading and style, I would say also less of like psyching less of like, you kind of know what you expect at a table? In terms of tournament, I think it's I think it's, it's amazing that like, people are very open to play with each other. Like you, you go to a dinner, and then you go to drinks afterwards. And people are like, Hey, are you playing tomorrow we can play together. And I really, I really liked that. It's not like, Oh, I come with my partner. And I'm playing all of this. And, you know, it's like, always there is there is a room to like, play with other people. And like, I enjoy playing with, like, with different people, because you just learn so much. Like, whenever you play with someone else, like, be it on your level slightly below, or, of course, above your level, it just learned so much. And I really enjoy it.
John McAllister 27:48
Yeah, I think in my experience, at least playing I haven't played that many festivals in Europe. But in playing the European Championships, it seems like that whenever I've played in that, that format, like sort of dictates that I already have a partner for most of the events, whereas in the U.S., if you get knocked out of an event sooner or later, you know, the team events are the main events, but then you have the pairs and what have you. And so there's a lot more sort of fungibility in the schedule, in terms of like whom, who who would event am I even going to be playing in? And then that you end up being able to potentially play with different people.
Selena Pepić 28:28
Yes, yeah. Which is, I find, it's amazing. And I mean, I have that. Let's say I'm fortunate enough to be woman. So like, there is a mixed event. Like I'm likely to find someone better than myself. Usually. That's very good. Because, like, I do learn most often on mixed events. And even when I started playing bridge, I think like, compared to some other juniors that are possibly equally talented, more or less than me. I had like a, like a foster track design a female and then some male people in Serbia needed mix partner. And so I had like, my first mix partner was basically a very good open player from from Serbia. Yeah.
John McAllister 29:16
When I talked to people, when I tell people, you know, there's a women's event that are not bridge players, a lot of times people will say there's still women's events?, you know, like people think that it's sort of archaic, that there's that there's women's events still what is your what's your experience with like, talking about that?
Selena Pepić 29:35
100% agree with them to be honest. But on the other hand, I do I do. On the other hand, I see I see the reason to keep them there. But yeah, so one thing I'm talking to Jovana quite often about is well, she knows why you for years now is like I just don't want to play women's event anymore. And and that's actually something Michael Rosenberg mentioned in the book Like he was like, you play as a woman, you play women's events, which against players that are weaker, and then therefore you are weaker, because you don't get enough of, like time to play against stronger players. So like, the whole field keeps, like, keep staying lower compared to like rest of the other fields just because you're like, you know, in order to like play better than Serbians, you need to, like, leave Serbia and like in order to go to the Bermuda Bowl you need to play against and listen to people that are actually playing there. So like, it's the same in women's event, like you just need to, like, get out of that zone in a way and like, I don't think I can play women's event and like win women's event. And for years and years, and then one day I go to European tournament, and I actually play fine. Not even like win against like, Brink and Drijver, but just play fine against them, like not lose a bunch. Like, I don't think that's possible. Like, they play against. I don't know, people from Netherlands and they learn from them. And they are getting used to that kind of field and it's just different bridge, you just can't, like I have even in this NABC like I had so many hands were like, I would never ever see that kind of thing, you know, in open event, never. And and then I'm just like, Yeah, it's like two diamonds pass pass. And I have a 12 count with A 10 9 of diamonds. And I'm like, Yeah, that's a 2NT. It's bad. It's bad. It's really bad. But …
John McAllister 31:41
How did that one work out?
31:43
Amazing. We got a top she raised to 3NT had jack third of diamonds.
John McAllister 31:55
You like we kind of joked about it in, in New Orleans. Like, like, you're you were excited to win the women's event. But did you feel like, what did it feel like to win it?
Selena Pepić 32:09
Well, I like the way I talked to you on about it. We won it because of her. So she really wanted to play it and she wanted to win it. And before the event. We agreed we're not gonna play that event together, if we win it, but yeah, for me, it's a bit of a lose-lose situation is like, if I don't win the events, I feel terrible. Because like, I feel like I should have won the event. But if I win the event, it's not like, I'd rather be seventh in the Silodor pairs which are like, they're the same time. I'd rather be like, you know, relatively complexity to top players in Silodor and to other than just winning women's. So and, and truth be told we had like so many bad boards as well. I like how do you feel winning the event and knowing how many bad boards you had. And we each had, like, at least three bad boards in a 52 board sessions, and we had like three bad boards. It's like you can't really be extremely happy having like, three terrible boards in a day. So I would say it was nice. And people were congratulating us and in that regard it was it was nice, but I'm really looking forward more to like playing some top event and hopefully being up there.
John McAllister 33:41
What's your schedule for the summer nationals then in that case? You're gonna play the Spingold?
Selena Pepić 33:47
We will yes, so we convinced Steve to play Spingold. So we will play five-handed. And I don't think that's gonna go too well. Given that, like, we're probably gonna get the worst seeding ever.
John McAllister
Who’s your team?
Selena Pepić 33:47
So it's a pair from Netherlands, which are very good player. But European. So they don't have many points either. And then Jovana me and Steve.
John McAllister 34:18
Jovana is the fifth.
Selena Pepić 34:22
Yes, yes. We're probably gonna play pairs the two of us unless something better pops up. And then if we drop out …
John McAllister 34:30
You and Jovana are gonna play the pairs at the start of the tournament?
Selena Pepić 34:35
Yeah, and we still don't have anything for Swiss.
John McAllister 34:41
Because you’ll still be in the Spingold.
Selena Pepić 34:45
Yeah, that will be very nice. But I already see like seeding playing. But listen, I'm even happy to have that seeding here because like, that's a win win thing. Like opposite of lose, lose. Just like you play I mean, like you do with like, nobody expected you to win if you win, like you're a god or like, you know, something magical happen to that day.
35:16
But yeah, I definitely rather be a win win situation.
John McAllister 35:20
What's it like? What do you what's your experience of like the culture of professional bridge in the United States? I mean, it's not I'm sure you don't have much if any professionalism in Serbia, I mean, in France, I think there's probably more but.
Selena Pepić 35:33
Not sure in like, which way you mean, but like, in general, I see, like nice things, and not so nice things about it. And I see like, it's also like, it's also interesting. Looking at it from different perspective, and coming from Europe, where I think level of bridge in Europe is quite, quite decent. And then there are not so many professional players. And then in US, like level of bridge is very decent, yes. But Europeans are, if you look at the last Bermuda Bowls, and last world events, like it's a lot of European teams and not American. And like in US, like, there are so many professionals playing bridge, and some of them are like, I honestly just don't don't think they're that, that good. And like I get very surprised when someone tells me of that person. Because like, I know, so many Europeans that are like, better than myself that never played bridge professionally, you know. And then, like, I go to us, and they're, like, so many professional players that like, just don't play bridge that well. Let's put it that way. So in that,
John McAllister 36:45
Like, had you played professionally before? Had you played professionally before you got to the US?
Selena Pepić
Yeah, so we played we played some events in Europe, like I played online with, with Mike, Rippey. I think that's how you Yeah, it has Polish team, usually in the main event, so I played with him when I was doing my bachelor. And we played online a lot. And we played that and all like, Turkish mix teams and then Italian Ladies Championship and stuff like that. But not much in general. Like not not even a bit like not even close to the same extent as in the US. It's definitely like different different level and different expectations and like a lot of decent players as well. It's like, even in France, there are like a lot of very good players. Decent level.
John McAllister 37:47
So it was Mikael coaching you up on like, the whole, like, being a pro thing.
37:55
Yeah, he he definitely did a bit. He was it’s quite funny that you ask that.
Selena Pepić 38:03
He was at some point, he was like a bit nervous and I was like, Are you really nervous? Because like, he's like, no, no, no, no, I'm like, I know, you're gonna be like, nice. And I know you're gonna be like, let's just please show on time. Because like, I just met you like, just please show up on time. And just like, Oh, my God.
John McAllister 38:29
You have a problem with punctuality.
Selena Pepić 38:32
Oh, my God. I'm just the worst. Like, I just need people to get used to that. Because like, I just can't change like, I gave up on changing that habit. I mean, you usually see that like, I've always liked the last one in the queue for coffee. And then like, I'm running towards the venue.
John McAllister 38:52
No, I haven't noticed that. So like that. So how did you do like with with showing up on time? Like, it's not you still even with Mikael? You know, saying please do it. You're still struggling to get through the door.
Selena Pepić 39:08
I like it's the same with the flights and everything is just same all the time. It's so long for now for New Orleans. So today, I have my partner for Strasbourg and he was taking the same flight and I got a message. In the morning. He was like so I'm at the airport, where are you? And I was like, here, here. An airport is like more than hour away. And they're processing. So like, it's like metros are not working. So you'd need to take Uber and it was terrible actually. So he had to like beg the guy at the gate to keep like keep everything open and I'm coming and I'm Wow. Yeah, it was bad. Yeah, I made it. I made it.
John McAllister 39:56
What time do you think how much to before the flight Do you think you act? See arrived at the airport like set foot out of your Uber at the airport.
Selena Pepić 40:04
So I usually plan to arrive like if I don't have baggage, I plan to arrive like 35 minutes before the flight. I have baggage than 45 I need to like, I mean, they kind of close the baggage thing. But like, you can ask that they usually well not usually it never actually happened to me. This like I missed one. That's okay, this we actually need to cut because of my parents.
40:39
Cuz I always say that I never missed a flight.
John McAllister 40:44
No, we're not cutting that. Normally. I cut everything but I'm not cutting. I'm not cutting this your parents?
40:52
Like to us less? Come on? Because I can't send it to my parents.
John McAllister 40:59
Oh my god. You can't No, come on. Please, this is the best part. Do your parents play bridge?
Selena Pepić 41:13
No, not at all. Yeah, it's uh, well, it wasn't that hot. Like, nobody in Serbia knows what bridge is. But my parents play a lot of card games like a random card games. So like, I started playing cards when I was like, five probably four. But just random card games. But like I would, for weekends, I would go to my grandparents place sometimes. And I would play it for hours, and hours and hours. So I was like, so addicted to card games. Like they. When I wrote my first essay on the title was my grandfather. And like, half of the essay was about card games that I played with my grandfather, and not about my grandfather at all.
42:11
When did you start playing bridge?
John McAllister 42:13
I was 18 years old. And I was a freshman in university. And I came home for winter break, and my grandfather had died. And so my aunt was staying with us. And we were gonna play another card game, which I love, still love called hearts. And I was explaining the rules for it to her. And she said, this is stupid, we should be playing bridge. And so like that was the first time. And then the first five years like the only times I played bridge, were just with my when I was home with my parents. And then my sister had some friends who needed a fourth for a class. And yeah, so I loved it immediately. Like I bought books, but I didn't realize that there was other outlets for it. I lived in New York City, really close to Honors, which is like the main club, they're like, two blocks away probably after I graduated from university, and I didn't it didn't even occur to me to, you know, to look for playing bridge.
Selena Pepic 43:18
Do you think you missed out there? Or? Like, if you go back in time, do you think he would go now? Or do you think it's like a lot of time and you wouldn't be able to do other things?
John McAllister 43:30
Oh, no, I would definitely go like Hey, he's played a ton of backgammon with my, one of my best friends lived as one of my best friends. And we played backgammon all the time. And he so I had like a job some of the time I lived there. But other times I didn't have a job. And so like when he would be he had a girlfriend, he had a job. And so when he was like available to play backgammon for the night, I was so excited, you know, like we would play for money. And I was better than he was. So if, like, absolutely, I would have been there. If I had gone if I had just thought to like Google bridge. You know, I would have been an Honors every day. I'm sure I would have been there. I mean, maybe I wouldn't have had the, you know, the professional career that I had. But I mean, I missed out on the juniors. I didn't play my first national until 2012. And I learned to play bridge in 1994.
Selena Pepić 44:25
So yeah, yeah, I think in that regard, I was quite lucky actually. Because so when I was 17, I went to like a special math High School. And when I was 17, our linear algebra professor, and he's also university professor. He played bridge and linear algebra was our toughest scores in a year. So I think some of the students were like, Oh, we're gonna start playing bridge so we can, you know, be good at that and then get good marks in linear algebra. And then we just joined the course. And funnily enough, eight of us joined, which is perfect, it's like a team match. So we started playing bridge, and immediately we started having team matches every break out, like playing games all the time. It's like, we have a probability class becoming our professor. This is good, because like, you're gonna understand, like better and like, all of that just play all the time. I think that's like, that's, if you honestly asked me, I think that's, that's the way to go. Like, just build, like a big community. And like, when people start playing with each other, and like, I mean, you love the game you played with, like your parents and grandmother and but like, imagine actually playing with your friends. And, like, meeting …
John McAllister 45:54
I know. It's like, I know, there'll be amazing. Like, we played spades in college, some but which is similar to bridge, but not as good, but it didn't even occur to me to try and teach them like how to play and, yeah,
Selena Pepic 46:11
Now if you could go back, it would definitely teach them I see it on your face.
John McAllister 46:17
Yeah, probably, probably, probably. Yeah, I mean, cuz I, you know, that we, I loved playing spades. Like, I was so happy when we would get a spades game going.
Selena Pepić 46:27
I just don't know, like, so I started in Switzerland. And when I, when I joined University, I was like, I need something to do. And I had to stop bridge, actually. So I stopped for two years. Because it was, it was too much. It was like it, which I where I studied, is like, one of the three best universities in Europe. It's like level of best universities in the U.S. And like, it's always top ten in all of the readings and everything. And I just did terribly. Like I was like, so I'm gonna do the exam session. But like, in between two exams, I'm gonna go to this one and play mix teams championship, and then go to the play women's championships. Like, and especially you can't you have to train for that tournament, because like, it's, it's a European mixed games championship. Like, you can't just go there. So like, I ended up having a terrible semester, at uni and terrible tournament in Lisbon. So it's just like the worst thing ever. So I just stopped bridge for two years, and I had to do something. So I organized board games society, which is happening on a Wednesday evening. And we just started playing all the board games. And like, they all knew I'm a bridge player. But like, it was like, Yeah, we play Settlers of Catan and whatever, and Codenames and Avalon. And then at some point, they were like, okay, like COVID started, and they were like, okay, now is the time to like, meet up online and you teach us bridge. And I was like, okay, so my flatmates. He was a bridge player. He was my ex partner. And we just stopped speaking about bridge ever, like we stopped playing together. is the only way to stay friends.
48:28
And we tried to teach them and they loved it. But like, not having a bridge club and not having like, a proper way to like, continue working on that. Just like, like, you can't do anything there. Like you need a proper setup and a proper like, structure to go through and then like, take it from there. So I don't know. I'm a bit pessimistic about like that way, like, I just show like, I love them. We are still friends. And they love the game. And it's still nothing is going on there. You know.
John McAllister 49:08
They’re not really they're not really playing.
Selena Pepić 49:11
No, no, they just the stop like, Yeah, after a couple of months, we went back to code names and stuff. So I mean, I don't know. So my flatmates I'm trying to like to talk to university try to like, combine something at extracurricular activities, in terms of region stuff, but it's just tough.
John McAllister 49:36
Do you think code names is a good game?
Selena Pepić 49:38
I love it. Yeah. I mean, but I'm not like you can't actually ask me because like, I love I love every single game. Like, it's so hard to find a game, which I don’t like. Like, like, I prefer Catan, there is some trading involved and some strategy and like, it's not that much. You depend less on people around you. So I'm like if I don't win, it's kind of a bit of luck and me being bad whereas in Codenames ...
John McAllister 50:09
Have you played Catan. Have you played Catan with with Zach Grossack?
50:17
No why?
John McAllister 50:20
Oh, cuz he. So Bronia Jenkins. Oh, he's very competitive. Yes. But Bronia Jenkins just got named as the new executive director of the ACBL. And, in the post on bridge winners, Zach commented how excited he was that she got to she got the job, but also set made like a joke about not doing I've never played Settlers of Catan. But she made a joke, he made a joke about, like, not allowing any of her trades and Settlers of Catan is like, a, like one of the jobs.
Selena Pepić 50:55
Now, you need to play that you need to play that game that I'm being serious. It's it's actually very good. It's, I mean, obviously, there's a level of luck. But it's like very social. And then on top of that, like it's like, fun to have different skills which you need. And I mean, I'm extremely competitive. I'm, I'm terrible. In terms of like, competitiveness, I ended up not speaking to some people like for some number of days after that. But yeah, you need to correct that. We need to actually next time, you're coming to Strasbourg, right?
John McAllister 51:33
Yeah, but I can't come. I can't come for the mixed. Because my sister is having a wedding party on June 3. And the tournament I think starts on I think the mixed starts on the third. Yeah, so I could potentially come for the mixed pairs, but I don't have a partner. And I don't know, I'm actually skipping my 25th college reunion to go to the open. I'm playing in the open. But probably not playing the mixed pairs
Selena Pepić 52:06
Yeah, you're skipping your college reunion, I think Jovana is also skipping, if that makes you feel better. To play. No, but like I can actually because I'm saying I think they are to offer. So I'm gonna actually bring the game. And then if you have time, we need to play we're gonna take as well.
John McAllister 52:27
So how long does it take to learn?
Selena Pepić 52:30
Oh, no, you've learned like, immediately. There are not many rules. It's just like, I can't even it's a bit of math involved, but like not too much. You just roll the dices. And then you get some like, resources. And then you build cities, or you build roads and stuff like that. It's like, a bit of like, deciding what you're going to build. And a bit of like, deciding who you're going to trade with which resources for what, and stuff like that.
John McAllister 53:05
What was it like? Not? Sorry?
Selena Pepić 53:08
No, no, it's like, I think my like, I'm a bit off to you in this book as in terms of like, five seconds late kind of thing. You know, I was I was wanting to ask, you play other board games, right? Like codename.
John McAllister 53:24
I've played code names, I own code names. I've played it like three times. Maybe twice. There's a game called the Mind. Have you ever heard of the Mind? The Mind is a great game. So it's, it's super simple. So there's a deck of 100 cards. And the cards are numbered one through 100. So there's one card for one, one card for 100 97, whatever. And you can play it suggest two to four players. So what you do is you shuffle the cards up, and then you each take a card, and your goal. It's a cooperative game. So your goal is to turn your cards over in order. So if you have card number one you like Insta put it on the table. If you have card number 100 You're never you're never put you know, and so then once you do one, then you do two and then you go up to 12 the goal is to do 12 That's like sort of winning the game, and then you do it blind. So like really winning the game is being able to do 12 in the blind, which I've only gotten to blind mind once. But that's a game that I learned like right before COVID So there's this guy Amaresh, have you met Amaresh Deshpande. He invented Hool. So he came to Charlottesville where I live and for like a gaming tournament to sort of show people Hool and I would go pick him up at the tournament and he goes, there's this game you got to play like I found the most amazing game. And so I just loved it immediately. Like, it's so cool. Like, it's very similar to bridge, you know, like in terms of reading, you know, reading the tempo. And so it's like, sometimes, you know, you're starting out and you each have three cards, and somebody's got like, number three, and they take a long time to play three and you're just like, you should have played that, you know, like you. I mean, obviously, if I had one, I would have played it. If I had two, I would have just about played it like three, you can almost play it. So it's kind of funny, like the you know, why didn't you play that faster? What took you so long? Or like, why you try to play 15 so fast? It's yeah, it is great. I love that game like I will. I will bring a version to Strasburg, for sure. Because it is just like, it's so easy. And bridge players, I think, particularly would love it.
Selena Pepić 55:54
How many cards do you do deal to each player?
John McAllister 55:56
So you start with one, then once you get that you do two? And then once you get that you do three? So you like reset the deal? Like?
Selena Pepić 56:06
Like, if you played? Like how, what, how many cards at the beginning you get and how many I get?
John McAllister 56:12
One? We each get one. So the first round is very easy. You know, like, I've got 15 you've got 60 You're like, No, you can't talk. But yeah, you know, you're so you're like, and then you know, I put 15 down and you're like okay, so the first round is easy. But then you know you're getting up to like 9 10 11 cards. The most cards you have is 12. Yeah. So you're I mean, that's the game that I liked the most that’s not like a card game currently.
Selena Pepić 56:51
Yeah. No, I, I just actually like different. Well, I would definitely like that game. Because like, I just like, it sounds interesting in terms of like cooperation. But like, there is a game called Babylon. And it's like mafia or variables, if you played any of that, variables is quite popular. Where you like, close your eyes, and like everyone else, close their eyes. And then someone is like, now the bad guys open their eyes, and then they try to like, take someone else from the game or kill someone in the way. And then after the game, there is like a convincing stage where everyone's trying to, like, convince other people just like that guy's bad. And that guy's good. So it's like a lot of like, reading of people. But like, you also need to like involve like how other people voted in the previous, like rounds of the game. Would they do that if they actually were doing this and having this card and whatever. So it's like a lot of long memory kind of thing in your head. And then also like reading people in terms of like, their poker faces and their, you know, how they're moving and how they're acting. And it's like some people are always silent when they're bad and some are always silent when they're bored when they're good and stuff like that. So it's very interesting in that regard.
END OF PART ONE