EPISODE 30: ANDREW CHEN
Andrew Chen is our youngest ever by a lot! 8-year old Andrew is the ACBL’s youngest ever Life Master, a feat many spend decades striving for. In May 2020, Andrew, at the age of eight years and three days, smashed the previous record holder’s mark by more than a year. He also was the first to set the record since the requirements for being a Life Master moved from three hundred to five hundred Masterpoints.
All four members of Andrew’s immediate family, his mother Sarah, his brother Charlie and his father Steve, are bridge players. He is also a product of Silicon Valley Youth Bridge, whose pizza parties are helping introduce many young people to the game. Steve also joins us, to whom Andrew gives a lot of credit for his amazing achievement.
Episode Highlights:
1:40- Andrew’s favorite bridge player—and no, it’s not his dad :)
4:20- Andrew enjoys punishing his opponents
6:43- How Andrew decided to pursue the youngest Life Master title
9:15- The players who helped Andrew in obtaining the title
12:35- A glimpse into Andrew’s bidding system
14:34- Andrew the ambassador
16:35- The Chen’s kind of met through bridge
17:05- How Andrew’s family plays bridge.
19:15- Andrew doesn’t neglect his reading
20:43- Video games that Andrew enjoy playing
22:35- Andrew’s height
25:08- Andrew as the narrator for Double Dummy???
27:45- Andrew’s language fluencies
Transcript:
John McAllister: so Andrew, thank you very much for agreeing to be interviewed. I'm a little bit nervous actually about doing this interview, because you're the youngest person that I've ever interviewed by a long shot. Have you listened to any of our setting trick, podcast?
Andrew Chen: Not yet.
John McAllister: Not yet. do you have a favorite bridge player?
Andrew Chen: My favorite bridge player is Brian.
John McAllister: Brian Zang. is he your regular partner?
Andrew Chen: Yeah.
John McAllister: he's a little bit older than you are. Isn't he?
Andrew Chen: Yeah he's a little older than me.
John McAllister: And how did you two start playing together?
Andrew Chen: we started playing together when we first started together.
John McAllister: So he was like a newcomer to the Silicon Valley pizza party at the same time that you were?
Andrew Chen: He started playing at the same time as me.
John McAllister: And do you think that you get good results against some opponents because they think you're so cute?
Andrew Chen: No.
John McAllister: Now, if you played with your favorite partner against your parents, who do you think would win you and your partner or your parents?
Andrew Chen: My parents.
John McAllister: your parents are better than you and your favorite partner?
Andrew Chen: Yeah.
John McAllister: What do you think would be a good question for me to ask you?
Andrew Chen: Um, I don't know.
what
John McAllister: you
I what Andrew, I think you are adorable. Oh, my goodness. I really appreciate your sitting here with me for this, interview. I'm intimidated by you.
Steve Chen: Can I help?
John McAllister: Yes, please.
Steve Chen: Okay. So yeah, so I, did ask Andrew I told him about this interview. I said that, you know, someone who made a movie than the, I forwarded him the link for Double Dummy, he really liked the movie. Then I told him someone who actually made this movie would like to interview you. And, would you like to, have this opportunity?
And he said yes. And then he asked me, what kind of questions are they going to ask? I just said, probably more about you and how you get into bridge. And I actually don't know what they're going to ask, but, just be yourself. And, that's what I told him. So he didn't really, really sort of, you know, prepare for those questions.
But, he did say that he'd like to have this opportunity. So a few things that may be, I think that, uh, you know, maybe we can ask a different way to see if he can elaborate.
John McAllister: Andrew. What grade are you in right now?
Andrew Chen: I'm in third grade right now.
John McAllister: And are you going to school on the computer or are you going to regular school?
Andrew Chen: Go on the computer.
John McAllister: Do you play bridge every day?
Andrew Chen: No.
John McAllister: Have you played bridge today?
Andrew Chen: Not yet.
John McAllister: What do you like about bridge?
Andrew Chen: um, I liked the and play because. You can control to hand it and you don't have to keep
getting as many things as defense and bidding.
John McAllister: Do you ever like to double the opponents when they bid too much?
Andrew Chen: Yeah.
John McAllister: Hmm. What's the best score you've ever gotten when you doubled the opponents? Because they bid too much.
Andrew Chen: 2000.
John McAllister: 2000. What was the event that you were playing in when you got to 2000? Do you remember what your trump holding was in the, when you double them to get 2000?
Andrew Chen: No,
John McAllister: No. Do you remember who you were playing with?
Steve Chen: I think it's in one of your, USBF junior training. I think if I remember correctly,
John McAllister: That when Michael gave me his research on you, Andrew, he said that you weren't, you were not old enough to be in the USBF Junior training. So it must've been just recently that they invited you. What was that? How did you learn that they were inviting you to, to participate in the USBs training
Andrew Chen: I got an email.
John McAllister: and you have your own email address?
Andrew Chen: Yeah.
John McAllister: Wow, as an eight year old, that's pretty cool. Like, I didn't need, they didn't need email didn't even exist when I was eight years old. Andrew, there was no such thing as email,
Steve Chen: Yeah. So, so every time he logs in, I got notified to the point that it becomes a little bit annoying. I got notified, Oh, you know, Andrew, who is a minor logged into to his email account. And we are just letting you know, as parent. And he texts me, "I'm locked!"
John McAllister: Andrew where do you have your email? account. Is it a Gmail account? Yeah. do you email with your friends? Is that how you keep in touch with your friends?
Andrew Chen: I usually do on hangouts.
John McAllister: On Hangouts. So you get together and Hangouts. Do you have friends that are in third grade that, play bridge too?
Andrew Chen: no, no one at my school
John McAllister: What's it like being the youngest life master?
Andrew Chen: Good, I guess.
John McAllister: I read that, you and Charlie won the 99 or pears event at the San Mateo sectional and that was when you decided to go for youngest life master.
Andrew Chen: Yeah.
John McAllister: So can you tell me like what your thinking process was that you decided you wanted to go for youngest life master?
Andrew Chen: Um, because I was really young and like the game.
John McAllister: how many master points did you have at the time when you made that decision?
Andrew Chen: Around 100.
John McAllister: And how does it feel like, have you talked to Adam Kaplan or Richard Jang or any of the other, youngest life masters?
Steve Chen: No.
John McAllister: there's a tradition that I learned about, where the youngest life master, the previous youngest life master, likes to help the next one, get it. there was two brothers, that were youngest life master and Joel Wooldridge was in between the two of them.
And Joel is very, you know, Joel was one of the best players in the world. And so I think it was the Hirschman brothers. And so one of them helped Joel break the record and then Joel helped the next one break the record. Have you played with Zach Garrison?
Andrew Chen: No,
John McAllister: Have you talked to him since you broke his record?
Andrew Chen: No.
John McAllister: Well, we should facilitate that. We should send an email introducing you two, I don't know Zach, but, Richard Jang, is in our film, double dummy, who was the youngest life master route for Zach and Adam Kaplan was before Richard Like Adam Kaplan was the reason that I made the movie because I was so impressed with him.
When I met him at a tournament, I was like, this kid is really impressive. And he was 16 at the time.
Steve Chen: I think that Andrew probably would have had a chance to meet these guys, if it were not because of COVID-19 and then, you know, he planned to attend the summer national. Where I think he would like it running too. And he's one of them. I personally have run into all of them before the nationals.
but Andrew, just attended the two nationals before that, when his last year in Las Vegas, that was his first national. And then, another one was in San Francisco. For last year, that was only because it was local to us. I think part of the reason was that to maybe, these young kids, well older than Andrew, of course, but still young to my standard.
they may not live locally, I think, and do a, get, get lots of help from, from local players. maybe enter, you can name a few, of those players. That helped you. For example, I think tonight you agreed to play with someone, right?
Andrew Chen: Kevin Rosenberg, Brian Canning, G, Brandon G, Charlie, Dad, and Mom.
John McAllister: Does your brother get upset that you get all the attention for being youngest life mastering?
Andrew Chen: I don't think so.
John McAllister: He's a good brother then. So are you playing with Kevin Rosenberg tonight or another Kevin?
Andrew Chen: Kevin Rosenberg.
John McAllister: What is the event that you're playing in?
Andrew Chen: Doubleton.
Steve Chen: It's a Palo Alto, uh, bridge club game on Wednesday evening called doubleton.
John McAllister: Double tin. Oh, but I can't watch it probably because it's a, cause it's a club game.
Steve Chen: Kevin, helped him a lot.
John McAllister: How did Kevin help you?
Andrew Chen: He taught me.
John McAllister: Did he teach you to overcall with a three-card made?
Andrew Chen: No,
John McAllister: with a two card major?
Andrew Chen: No.
John McAllister: Did he teach you to make a lead directing double with three small?
Andrew Chen: No.
John McAllister: What did he teach you? Did he teach you to play that a four no trump was just a regular, just asking for aces and not key cards.
Andrew Chen: No.
John McAllister: It's too bad we don't have video of this session because Andrew you're like the cutest thing. That's I mean, unfortunately it's just an audio recording that we're they already have, because I think that, I think that people would really like, I mean, your melt, your melting. Uh, you're so cute, but.
Steve Chen: And Joe Sunday so serious when he said no. Yeah. So, so Kevin, um, that there was, uh, was a period of time that Kevin played with Andrew regularly on a weekly basis. And then after each of those games, he reviewed those hands card by card with him. So I think that helped a lot.
John McAllister: You know, I pay Kevin a lot of money to do that for me.
Steve Chen: Hey, you got that for free Andrew!
John McAllister: do you have to pay him, Andrew?
Andrew Chen: no.
Steve Chen: Kevin even insists on paying his own game fee.
John McAllister: Oh my gosh.
Steve Chen: No, you're jealous, Joe.
John McAllister: He's a cool kid. He's a really good player too, man. It's fun. He is fun to play with.
Andrew Chen: Yeah.
John McAllister: Who's your partner for junior for the USBF junior program?
Andrew Chen: A lot of people, we keep on switching.
John McAllister: I think it's cool that you've got, friends like Olivia Shyerson and she's 14 years old and you guys are playing bridge together, you know, like you're, you're only 8, I think that's really neat that, it's such a diverse group of ages. Cause like one year is a big difference in that age, at least when I was a kid, it was a big deal to be a couple years younger like that.
Steve Chen: Yeah he learns quite a lot from the older ones. And, uh, there are multiple Olivia is about 14 years old. And then Kevin is about, I think Kevin is 12 now and Charlie will turn 11 very soon. And Brian is nine years old. Well, maybe 10, 10 years out now. I think so. Oh, yeah. Well, it wasn't, I guess I would time flies. So Andrew almost got the entire spectrum of different ages of, bigger brothers and sisters, I think.
John McAllister: Andrew, if you and I were going to play in event on bridge base, like starting in 10 minutes, what would we discuss?
Andrew Chen: 30 and defense
John McAllister: So like we would play weak no trump?
Andrew Chen: Um, no.
John McAllister: Strong, no Trump
Andrew Chen: Yeah,
John McAllister: 14 to 16 or 15 to 17.
Andrew Chen: 15 to 17.
John McAllister: We play stamen?
Andrew Chen: Yeah.
John McAllister: Transfers?
Andrew Chen: Yeah.
John McAllister: What's two spades. Is it size ask?
Andrew Chen: No, it's transfer to three clubs.
John McAllister: Transfer to three Cubs. What's two no trump over one no Trump?
Andrew Chen: Invitational.
John McAllister: Okay. And three level over one now.
Andrew Chen: so three clubs is transferred to diamonds. Three diamonds is niners game forcing, three hearts is singleton heart, three spades and four or five in the minors. Spades is one spades, three hearts, four or five in the minors.
John McAllister: Do you and Kevin plays zero three one four or one four three zero?
Andrew Chen: One four three zero.
John McAllister: I know his dad likes to play one for three. Oh, what do you like to play over their no trump?
Andrew Chen: What no trump?
Steve Chen: Defense over their no trump open.
Andrew Chen: Um, Nandy
John McAllister: So two clubs is majors.
Andrew Chen: and then the rest are natural.
John McAllister: I really appreciate Andrew, you making the time to talk to me. I gotta tell ya. You, you know, I'm excited to have such a young player, in the bridge world, I saw you in San Francisco a couple of times with your little group really exciting to have somebody, so young playing you're a great ambassador for bridge. Do you know what that means? You know what an ambassador is?
Andrew Chen: No.
John McAllister: An example, for, why people should want to, might want to play bridge. You really, we're really lucky to have you and your, and it seems like your dad and mom and your brother really support you in that.
Steve Chen: an ambassador is also a person who, who have Goodwill to the others. So we invest a bridge means that, you know, bridge is a good thing to other people.
John McAllister: Andrew, what would you be doing if you weren't on this interview with me,
Andrew Chen: I don't know.
Steve Chen: I think he's got some schoolwork.
John McAllister: Do you want to like stick around or?
Steve Chen: Do you want to stick around? And John wants to ask me a few questions now.
Andrew Chen: Just stick around,
Steve Chen: stick around. Okay.
John McAllister: Steve, when did you come? When did you move from China to the, to the States?
Steve Chen: Oh, that was both more than 20 years ago. I first came to, Ohio state university to, to study my graduate degrees, electrical engineering. And then I moved to, San Jose. I found a job in San Jose and, have been here since then. So that was 1996 that I moved to Silicon Valley.
John McAllister: And did you already know how to play bridge when you moved to the U.S.?
Steve Chen: Not really. I knew some very basic rules. I can probably play something like a mini bridge. I started, seriously learning bridge around 1999. I first learned duplicate bridge from okay bridge another, online bridge program at that time. And then in the year 2000, I joined ACBL.
John McAllister: And what was the impetus that got you on OK. Bridge.
Steve Chen: actually I don't remember. Uh, I think that to some of my graduate school, classmates were doing this okay. Bridge. So I just happened to come across and, I then tried out by myself.
John McAllister: And I understand that your wife plays, did you two meet through bridge?
Andrew Chen: sort of, yes. So at that time, I just didn't bridge, you know, about less than a year, that was year 1999. went back to China for the occasion. And, then, she was playing in one of the bridge clubs there. she was on, the youth winnings team in China at that time.
at that time, those are, you know, young female bridge players. So I was interested in checking them out.
John McAllister: *Laughs*
John McAllister: So when you guys played with the family, do you cut for partners or do you play like, Andrew and his brother against the parents?
Andrew Chen: Parents.
John McAllister: And how, like when you play, do you play on a computer or do you play, do you deal out the cards?
Andrew Chen: We deal out the cards
John McAllister: Do you do rubber bridge scoring or how do you score?
Steve Chen: Yes. score is pretty much a rubber based, cause we did not have any comparison, but mainly this is like a practice game for the kids. So after each hand and we just went over the hand again and tell them how the bidding and play is supposed to be. of course, you know, one sort of shortcoming is that, you don't know whether this is a winning or losing because there's no comparison.
So this is more like a practice for them. And sometimes we get help from other friends to have a team game, and that will be played online.
John McAllister: And how often do you guys play like around the kitchen table bridge at your house.
Steve Chen: I think, uh, maybe like twice a week, is that right? Andrew?
Andrew Chen: Uh, once or twice,
Steve Chen: once or twice a week. we used to play more, but then, Andrew quickly became more sort of one kid, from other players. So he got more games to play. He got other people online to form a team with him.
They didn't really last, very, very far, you know, in those games, but I think it was good experience for, for him to playing in this high level event. and also they have, multiple, junior league games. Yeah. So these days we got less chance to, to, uh, actually have time for only four of us to play in the kitchen.
John McAllister: It's a there's this team game, uh, online. It's called the reynolds. No, not Reynolds. It's called the Schaefer game. Uh, that Walt Shaffer organizes ,have you guys played in that?
Andrew Chen: No, not in that but maybe we should try that out as well.
John McAllister: Yeah, that would be a good one.
Andrew Chen: Yeah. I certainly heard about it.
John McAllister: I got to play with Bob Hammond for the first time in at, so that was, uh, that was pretty cool for me. Andrew, do you read any bridge books?
Steve Chen: Do you read any bridge books?
Andrew Chen: Yeah.
John McAllister: Like what's your, are you reading a bridge book right now?
Andrew Chen: I kind of am.
Steve Chen: Which book,
Andrew Chen: Eddie Kantar Teaches Advanced Bridge Defense
Steve Chen: yeah. So, so, so this is the Andrew mentioned that there was defense lesson I was giving to actually, it was just not, not just giving to him. I was giving this to a group of, kids, including him, Charlie, Brian, or ABI, or, you know, total, those, his partners and teammates as well.
the material coming from that book, there was an entire chapter called doubling for the lead that was what Andrew was talking about.
John McAllister: Andrew, if you have, I saw that you had a bidding problem that you posted on bridge winners. you have two little spades ACE, fourth of hearts and ACE King queen seventh of clubs. Do you remember the hand?
Andrew Chen: Yeah.
John McAllister: And it you bid one club. And they over called one diamond and your partner bid one spade and your right-hand oponent bid two diamonds and you bid three diamonds and your partner, bid three hearts. What did you bid over three hearts?
Andrew Chen: Um, I think I bid something like four club or five clubs.
John McAllister: how many tricks could you take in hearts or clubs?
Andrew Chen: A lot.
John McAllister: *Laughs* Do you play any other games? Like any other video games or what video games do you like to play?
Andrew Chen: Golf Stars and Among Us.
John McAllister: I don't know that one.
Steve Chen: That's actually two: one is Golf Stars and one is Among Us.
John McAllister: Ah, So, do you play more bridge or do you play more of the other games?
Andrew Chen: More of the other games this week.
John McAllister: Cause you don't have school this week?
Andrew Chen: Yeah. Yep.
Well, I'd really love to play, as your partner or in a matches with your teammates sometime Andrew, I think that would be. A lot of fun. I've seen on bridge winners that you're, you're a pretty good player. I could probably learn a thing or two from you.
Steve Chen: Would you like to have Joan as a partner,?
Andrew Chen: Yeah.
Steve Chen: But has to behave right?
John McAllister: If you double for the lead and I don't lead the suit, will you get mad at me?
Andrew Chen: No.
John McAllister: You promise?
Andrew Chen: Yeah.
John McAllister: Oh my goodness. You're the cutest thing. what did they say to you when you come to the table? And it's like a, it's like some older, some older people, what do they, what do they normally say to you?
Andrew Chen: I don't know, I forget.
John McAllister: Do they say it's so nice to see a young people playing bridge?
Andrew Chen: Yeah. Something like that.
Steve Chen: Yeah. Most of them do. I think Andrew was too focused on the cards at that time. You didn't hear it. I think most people would say it's good to see young kids playing bridge Most of the people. I think they were amazed at how young he was and people ask questions.
Like, how old are you? Which grades are you? He had pretty much had to answer those questions. Like that is five times a session. Yeah. Almost every time.
John McAllister: Andrew how tall are you ?
Andrew Chen: I don't know
Steve Chen: You don't know how tall you are?
Andrew Chen: 3 feet or something.
Steve Chen: I think you are taller than that.
Andrew Chen: Not four feet yet.
John McAllister: Okay. at what point did people start being like, instead of being just as cute kid, they're like, man, I can't believe he did that? You know, like, I can't believe he made that good play against us. Like when did that, uh, or has that started? I mean, it seems like he's, that would, that would be happening.
Steve Chen: Yeah. I think it's already started happening. I think, at Edison earlier this year, people were starting to notice and the people were, instead of asking how old he was, people were asking, how many master points do you have already?
John McAllister: It's kind of a shame that, all the bridge is being played virtually right now because people like when you're playing against Andrew, they don't necessarily get to see like how young he is. And like that a lot of the, uh, the, the shock of like having such a good player, he's not even four feet tall, you know, like,
Steve Chen: yeah, online bridge sadly pretty much lost some of the social aspects of bridge. I think. it has it's own merit. you could play bridge anytime from the community, sit at home and, you know, you don't have to travel. So it was a lot of good things, but I do miss the social aspect of it as well.
So hopefully things will get back to normal sometime early next year.
John McAllister: Yeah.
When do you think the next in-person NABC will be?
Steve Chen: I think it will likely be next summer, spring, I think official ACPF hasn't canceled it yet, but I'm not too optimistic about it.
John McAllister: Yeah. And it seems, it seems hard. It seems like a stretch I'd really like to premiere the new version of double dummy just before St. Louis and NABC is supposed to take place. But, uh,
Steve Chen: I See.
John McAllister: I just, I don't, I don't think it's going to happen. You know, like I think there's, there would be a lot of anticipation if the. national tournament you know, since we've taken off. But, uh, I don't, I don't think it's going to
Steve Chen: Well, I was thinking a good way if the first national, the first input's national would be next summer, this means you've got more time.
John McAllister: That's true. Andrew. I was talking to your dad. I was telling him that I read this article we're working with a story consultant for our film. And the story consultant was suggesting, like thinking differently about who would be a narrator. Do you know what a narrator is for? Uh, have you ever heard of watched a movie that has a narrator? I thought so. I read this article and I thought, you know, who would be a really interesting person to narrate our film?
Andrew Chen: No.
John McAllister: You.
Steve Chen: Are you shocked Andrew.
Andrew Chen: Not really.
Steve Chen: Okay.
John McAllister: like in the film currently, right now it says, so the opening of the film is the definition of double dummy. And do you know what, like how would you define the term declare to somebody who doesn't play bridge?
Andrew Chen: So um, somebody who plays a hand. Um, kind of controlling, like two hands, your hand and the dummy. the dummy doesn't really play anything himself.
John McAllister: Right, yeah. One of the things that's challenging as a filmmakers, that's bridges a pretty complicated game and having an eight year old due to the narration could, be pretty like, Oh, wow. So anyway, that was, uh, I had some fun thinking about that.
Andrew Chen: Yeah, but on the other hand, if, if you make people think that, Hey, an eight year old can, know all these stuff and can narrate this quite nicely, then maybe, you know, people wouldn't be so intimidated about this game. Yeah.
John McAllister: That that's exactly what I was trying to say is like that it would take a lot of the intimidation value out. Although I think it would be a mistake to think that Andrew's not, not a shark. what's something that's really nice to Kevin like Kevin, what's something nice that Kevin Rosenberg has said to you about a, at hand that you played or a bid that you made or something?
Andrew Chen: Um,
uh,
Steve Chen: did Kevin say a nice thing about you after the game or after hand?
Andrew Chen: He said I played well. I guess.
Steve Chen: Yeah, that sounds like Kevin. I mean, Kevin is not a personality wise. Kevin is not very talkative from what I learned. So when Kevin says, you know, well-played or you did well, he'd really meant it.
John McAllister: He really means it.
Steve Chen: Yeah.
John McAllister: Do you guys speak, do you speak English or what, what language do you all speak at? at home?
Andrew Chen: English and Chinese.
Steve Chen: Yeah. So the deal is that he speaks Chinese to us parents, but he almost speaks exclusively English to his brother. Two of them were just communicated almost exclusively. Yeah. We try to get them to, also speak more Chinese because I think that being bilingual also has some advantage for the future life.
they do take some Chinese classes here and there also online, but still when he is with his brother, I guess that they just, English is still convenient for them, I think, which is not a bad thing. Yeah.
John McAllister: Where in China are you from originally? Uh, Steve.
Steve Chen: from Shanghai and so is my wife.
John McAllister: That's the first place I went in China.
Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a Shanghai airport. It very hot.
It was August. It was very
Steve Chen: Oh no, the weather there is, uh, yeah, especially we all spoiled maybe in the San Francisco Bay area. So yeah.
John McAllister: Have you been to Thai song? Or am I saying, I don't know if I'm saying it right. Tie tie Tai T a I C a N G.
Steve Chen: Oh, yeah. So that one is actually, very close to Shanghai. Yes. It's almost next to it. I didn't go there to play bridge, but, I've been that city a couple of times before that was before I came to the US.
John McAllister: Are your parents still in China?
Steve Chen: Yes.
John McAllister: How often do you all go back to China for.
Steve Chen: as often as I can. usually I try to go back once a year. I haven't been able to go back this year and I don't think I would be. but usually, yeah, it's Western year.
John McAllister: Well, I tell you what I really appreciate both of your patience.
Steve Chen: Thank you for the opportunity.
John McAllister: It's really sweet to have, uh, an ambassador for bridge like you. I'm really grateful to you and your dad for, for talking to me.
Andrew Chen: Thank you.
Steve Chen: *Laughs* Thank you,
John McAllister: You got a You got great smile, buddy.
It's really sweet. It seems like your dad's Maybe holding your hand a little bit, the kind of like comfort you, is that,
Andrew Chen: Well, sometimes not really. He's he's mostly standing on his own. Yeah.
John McAllister: well, it's been really sweet to spend this time with you guys.
Andrew Chen: Great. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Thank you so much. Talk to you later.
John McAllister: Bucky, I'll see you on bridge base.