EPISODE 35: Joel Wooldridge, Sam & Dan Hirschman, and Steve Cochran
The third and possibly final episode of the Youngest Life Master series has touched down! In this episode, we caught up with four former youngest Life Masters: Joel Wooldrige, brothers Sam and Dan Hirschman, and Steven Cochran. Joel is now a world-class expert and is one of the world's best players. Sam and Dan continue to celebrate their former record with the annual “The Party”. Steven was an absolutely wild teenager; he once woke up in the ocean while traveling across the country to play bridge, without his parents. At the age of 14. It really amazes me how different are the paths that people take!
Episode Highlights:
2:55- 11 year old Joel Wooldrige
3:55- How Joel learned to play bridge
5:25- How Sam Hirschman’s father played a role in getting his son’s record beaten
8:55- Joel was in the Guinness Book of World Records!
11:15- The real reason why Dan had to take back the YLM record for the Hirschman family
18:15- Sam and Dan Hirschman
20:30- Father Hirschman = Most Valuable Motivator
26:25- Sam was featured in Sports Illustrated magazine!
28:10- Bridge lost Dan to Magic: the Gathering
28:49- Dan was featured on the Leno show, the People Magazine, and NYT
32:19- The last times Sam and Dan can flex their former record
34:05- The annual “Dan Hirschman Youngest Life Master KO Teams” where 25 teams onced showed up to play at the Hirschman house
40:35- How Sam ended up on Sports Illustrated magazine
44:30- The decline of bridge’s cultural relevance
46:50- Meet Steven Cochran
49:25- Steven learned bridge at NASA
52:35- Steven taught his entire college fraternity to play bridge
- 14 year old Steven spent a whole summer traveling US and Canada to play bridge
59:48- Steven excels at declaring
1:01:35- Unfortunately, Steven couldn’t measure up for the attractive girl
1:02:35- Waking up in the ocean
1:07:40- Steven once was a professional soccer player
1:09:09- No fanfare for Steven becoming part of the first two-person ACBL Kings and Queens of Bridge
1:12:50- Played against a typical nobody: Omar Sharif
Transcript:
JOHN MCALLISTER: Will you please state your name and age?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Joel Wooldrige, age 42, which is the answer, so it’s the best age.
JOHN MCALLISTER: OK. And how old were you when you became the youngest Life Master?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: I was 11 years old, and maybe two or three months.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And whose record did you beat?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: I beat Sam Hirschman. Later on, his younger brother, Danny, took the record away from me. But, I had it for a little while – not too long.
JOHN MCALLISTER: In your well, you said that your number one accomplishment in bridge, after finishing second in the Bermuda Bowl and being player of the year – ACBL Player of the Year – your number one bridge accomplishment was becoming the youngest Life Master.
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: I mean, yeah, it was kind of a special thing. My mom took me around to different tournaments, and we kind of crushed the numbers for a little while, toward the end there. It wasn’t our original objective, but the closer we got, the more we wanted it. And it was kind of fun.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What was your original objective?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Just to play bridge and have a good time. My parents both enjoyed the game. I enjoyed the game after trying it out. I got pretty addicted quickly.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And so, what were the circumstances around your learning, then?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: My parents are both good bridge players, and they would go out and play at the local club. And I was pretty young back then, maybe seven, eight years old when I started listening to them talk about bridge. And I played other card games with them, but I was curious about what was going on with that, and my dad agreed to teach me.
And after a couple of years, I sort of lost interest right away, but then I came back to it. And then, he took me out to a live game and then, I was like, “OK, I want to keep playing.”
JOHN MCALLISTER: And then, at some point, your mother swooped in. What was that –
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Yeah, originally, the deal was that they would teach me bridge and then, the idea was that it would be a way to save on having a babysitter. Right? I’d play the game with them. We’d form a team – three of us, plus one more. And I’d be learning bridge with them – something they enjoyed.
But my mom was never really so optimistic about the likelihood of my being a good bridge player. It was just that I would know the game. My dad – he had no ideas about that. He said, “Well, why not? You can learn bridge. Why not?”
So, after a little while, when I showed some promise, now, my mom realized that actually, I could be a bridge player. And then, she kind of took the reins from my dad and started teaching me everything she could and playing with me often.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And did she do that – so, are you saying that she didn’t do that originally with youngest Life Master in mind?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Oh, no, not at all. That was never the objective. Actually, that only became something relevant to us -- I think when I was a few months in, I went to a Toronto regional with my mom, and we played in the mixed pairs. And we had a very good day. We had a 65%, a 70% game or something. And so, we won the mixed pairs, and everyone was kind of surprised and happy. We were happy.
And we ended up talking to Marty Hirschman, who is Sam’s father, after the game. And he jokingly made a comment to my mom saying, “So, are you going to go after youngest Life Master now? Haha.” And she was like, “Maybe.” (Laughter) And so, I think at that point, that was when she decided to make it more serious, and we started playing more often.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And how much, before you actually broke the record, do you think that this tournament took place?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Oh, it was several months. It took me less than a year to turn Life Master once I started playing. So, I don’t know, maybe five months? Something like that. And then, I turned Life Master after that.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, did you mom know Marty and Sam already? Or did Marty just speak to you because you were a child?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: I think we might have known each other. I ended up playing with Sam kind of soon after I turned Life Master, so I think we might have already had some acquaintance before that. But not too much.
JOHN MCALLISTER: The story I heard was that Sam helped you get Life Master. Is that just from the story, then? It wasn’t actually playing with you?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: I don’t know that that’s factual. Yeah, I think someone just ad-libbed that to make it sound interesting. We did end up playing together in a Flight B event and winning it at a regional, but that was after I was Life Master already. And we also played in the Junior Program at the beginning, before I played on the teams. So, maybe when I was 13, something like that, we played in the Junior Program together, but we did not get picked for the team.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And who do you think was more excited when you became youngest Life Master – you, or your mother?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Probably my mom. But it was pretty fun. They announced it when we were in San Francisco, that I’d turned Life Master, because I was getting my final points there. And we were in the Sunday Swiss, the final day of the nationals, they made the announcement. And I stood up on my chair and waved at everyone, and the whole room was clapping, so that was really cool.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wow.
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Yeah.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I think that’s the best story I’ve heard since I’ve started interviewing you guys. That’s a pretty cool place to do it.
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was very cool.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I got the impression from your well that – and it could be wrong – but that maybe your mom was a better player than your dad. Is that –
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Oh, well, I mean, in her mind. She is very proud of her bridge bidding ability, especially. But her overall game is solid, and she’s a good player. My dad is also a very good player, but he’s a little bit prone to flights of fancy, I would like to say. He has a theory about aggressive preempting that is, I would say, very aggressive. (Laughter) One of his [inaudible 0:05:38.0] about preempting is that if you open on the three level, you can’t have any defense.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: You can’t have an ace and a king on the side. You can’t have the ace of your suit. You can’t have – he doesn’t even want to have a queen on a side. He sees a jack as a fly. He wants to have the worst hand you can imagine when he opens this three level preempt. So, his partner knows, passes, good idea. Like, partner passes 29, no problem. Whatever.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter) What was it like getting the record for you?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: I guess it was kind of a cool thing. Most of my friends weren’t into bridge back in Buffalo. So, when they heard that I was Life Master, they were like, “Well, what’s that?” So, it wasn’t some kind of cheering point for my friends.
I’d say the coolest part about it, besides just the achievement itself, was that I got to be in the Guinness Book for a period of one year, because it took them about a year to process it and then, I was in the book for a year. And then Danny came along and took my record away, but I was there, and it’s published. And I have that book somewhere.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Was that something you all did, or the ACBL did?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: It was already in the Guinness Book before I came along. The record was just something that they kept track of. So, my name’s in print in the Guinness Book. Pretty fun.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How good of a player do you think you were when you turned Life Master?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: I mean, I was still learning the game, but I definitely had some skills. I remember playing in the regional with my mom, and the opponents saw us come to the table. I was a pretty young kid, like 10. They looked at me and then, they bid a grand slam on a hand. And I remember just sitting back and waiting for my trick. I was like, well, I’m not going to lead from my queen. So, at some point (Laughter) you’re going to have to lead it to me.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Yeah, and there was a lot of things like that where I knew enough about the game where I played not amazingly, but I had good card sense. As the declarer, I had strategies that people would not expect from a young player, and I used that to my advantage. I would false card them, and they would always bite. And I would lead suits that I wasn’t strong in to try to get them to break my suits for me, and that worked really well because they weren’t expecting it.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: So, I used those strategies. I read bridge books to try to improve my game so I had some technical skills, too. I was working pretty well.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Did you hear from the Hirschmans when you broke the record?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Not that I’m aware of, but I’m sure someone congratulated us, and probably also set up the plan of vengeance.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter) I’m interviewing the two of them together tomorrow, actually.
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Oh, OK. One of the things about the Hirschmans is that they had this annual celebration for youngest Life Master where they invited a bunch of friends, had a party for Sam at the time. I never attended it, but I heard about it. And so, when I beat his record, that kind of spoiled their annual festivities, so they had to get it back. I think that was part of the issue.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Because he crushed your record.
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: I mean, I know he must have been ten years, some number.
JOHN MCALLISTER: He was a year and two months younger than you were when he broke your record.
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Oh, wow. So, he was like, ten.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah, he was ten. And so, you didn’t play with him either, then, in helping him get it?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: No. I might have played one game. I don’t remember. But I don’t think I had – I mean, I certainly didn’t play many games. I might have played once.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, there was – I mean, this was 1990. There’s no online bridge. This was 300 masterpoints that you had, too?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Yeah, 300 masterpoints. You had to get the colors. There was no black point requirement. But silver was the hardest one because they didn’t give out a lot of silver when you attended the sectionals. Even if you won twice, you would still need more silver as opposed to if you go to a regional and win once, you probably have all the gold you need. So, that was definitely the hardest requirement.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And you went to the nationals. What events were you playing at that nationals?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Well, in San Francisco, I played in – I think it might have been a morning KO. And because people were aware of how close we were, I think Fred Gitelman and Sheri Winestock agreed to play on a team with us. And I don’t’ know where we finished, but I think we got some masterpoints for that. So, things like that. And I think I would play three, four sessions a day, just trying to gather in as many as possible. I don’t remember having any special finishes except for maybe that morning KO. A little bit here and there and then, it adds up eventually. You play in a swiss, you win a couple matches, whatever.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Did you go to the nationals for the entire 10 days?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Yeah. As I remember, yeah.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And so, you went there with the idea in mind that you were going to – that it felt like you were going to get the record?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Yeah. We just needed a few points at that time, so, might as well go to a big event where you can win a few points if you just play in a few events. And then, that’s what we did. We just grinded it out.
JOHN MCALLISTER: When was the last time that you told somebody that you were the youngest-ever ACBL Life Master, or that you were in the Guinness Book of World Records for that?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: It’s probably been a few years. It’s not the most important thing to talk about with people who know my history with bridge. They usually want to talk about other stuff, not from when I was 10 years old. They’ll talk to me about – well, I’m a professional player now, so they’ll talk to me about hands that come up, or whatever my professional capacity. I don’t really talk about it too much, but I did uncover the book not too long ago, and it was a conversation starter with some people.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Oh, the Guinness Book.
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Yeah.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Ever since you really got into it and started doing the youngest Life Master chase, have you been kind of that much into bridge ever since?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Oh. Well, I always liked bridge. It wasn’t that I was chasing the youngest Life Master. That wasn’t the reason why I started at all. I just wanted to play the game because my parents talked about it all the time. I wanted to know what was going on. And then, when I started, I was like, “Well, this is kind of fun.” It’s another card game. I liked card games. There was strategy in mind, and I like puzzles, and it’s like you have to solve the puzzle, you have to figure out what’s going on -- deal with another person, so I like the social aspect to it, too. I don’t know, it was always a good time to me.
And as I moved towards college, I realized that bridge kind of interfered with college, so there was a little bit of a lull there when I was trying to move away from bridge to try and focus on my studies, but that didn’t work out too well for me.
And then, when I realized that I wasn’t going to leave bridge anytime soon, I went back to it with a lot of enthusiasm. It never left. I still loved playing.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What was it like when Dan beat you?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: It wasn’t a big deal to me, honestly. I mean, again, that wasn’t the reason why I enjoyed playing bridge. It was just a cool thing that I did. No big deal. I still have that one book where it had my name in there and can’t take that away from me. (Laughter) And they get to have their annual celebration, so good for them. No big deal. I mean, with how many times it shifted hands as of the last few years, I think there’s definitely something to that.
You know, I heard there was some kind of prediction made by some gamists – predictor of stuff – I don’t know what you call those people – about the youngest Life Master – I don’t remember when. It might have been Sam. But there was a prediction made that he would be the youngest Life Master, and no one would ever beat it, by someone who had some renown. But considering how many times it’s shifted since then – (Laughter).
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah.
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: It’s a pretty failed prediction. But it’s just a funny thing that I heard once.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Well, it’s been eight years. The previous recordholder was Zach Garrison, who held it for eight years. Dan held it for 12 years before Adam Kaplan beat him. And Andrew was the first one to do it for 500 masterpoints.
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: So, the 500 requirement is an interesting thing because I think part of that – that they shifted it up – was because of masterpoint inflation.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah.
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Back when I was playing, you’d play at the club and then, they didn’t send the points directly to the ACBL. You had to write it on a little ticket, and you would get a fraction. It said 0.42 for first place at the club today, and then you’d send it in. The masterpoints came in real slow but after a while, they changed the rules on that, and they started adding masterpoints to games because there was another section of another game playing simultaneously with you. And so, when you did it like that, you would get almost double the points if you placed. And so, I think that’s part of the reason that they shifted it up, because people were getting to 300 too quickly.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, did you actually have to send the masterpoints to the ACBL yourself?
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Yeah, that’s how it worked. You had to mail it in.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wow.
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: Or, the director might do it for you. But back then, there wasn’t a computer network of ACBL that was contacting and connecting everything.
A real accomplishment with bridge is when you continue it and then, you learn from the game, and you show that you have talent and proceed. In Danny’s case, he got the title, but then stopped playing afterwards. I think he was only about getting the title from another.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Right.
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: But the other recordholders, I believe, enjoyed the game and kept playing. Sam, maybe a little less, but he was definitely enthusiastic about the game, and I think that’s the real achievement.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Alright. Well, I am grateful to you for doing this.
JOEL WOOLDRIGE: No problem.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, we have the Hirschman brothers, Sam and Dan – two of the youngest-ever Life Masters of the American Contract Bridge League. Welcome.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Thanks so much.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Thank you for having us.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Please introduce yourselves.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: I’m Sam Hirschman. I was 11 years, nine months, and five days old when I became the youngest Life Master, which is the topic of this podcast. I am now 44 years old, making that quite a long time ago. I’m a schoolteacher. I have two young children. My wife and I live in Ann Arbor. We both teach.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Hi, I’m Dan Hirschman. I’m currently 36 years old. I made Life Master just a little over 10. I want to say it was 10 years, two months, 20 days, but I actually forget off the top of my head if that’s exactly right. But, a little over 10. And I’m 36 now. I currently also live in the same area as Sam, actually. I live in Ypsilanti, Michigan, though I teach in Providence, Rhode Island, leaving back there soon. I live here with my partner and our 18-month-old daughter.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And Sam, are your children on track for youngest Life Master, continuing the Hirschman tradition?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: I don’t think they’re headed that – OK, my daughter, who is four and a half, has shown no particular inclination to play cards. A little teeny bit of War now, whereas by four and a half, I think Dan and I could both play a hand. Not particularly well or necessarily all the time, but there were moments.
So, she – I don’t think she’s going that route. Some games, they show interest in. I think one of the things I’ve actually been noting is, I remember very strongly my parents sitting around the card table with some of their friends playing bridge and being interested. And we don’t do that at home. I think I play other games around them. So, I think they are more likely, I’m guessing, to emulate that.
My son is two and a half. It remains to be seen. He’s showing some inclination toward things mathematical, but also like inaudible 0:17:14.5].
JOHN MCALLISTER: Dan, do you still play bridge?
DAN HIRSCHMAN: I have played a session in the last two years, so not much.
JOHN MCALLISTER: By session, do you mean a club –
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, a club game.
JOHN MCALLISTER: A sanctioned game?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Do you ever still play on the computer?
DAN HIRSCHMAN: In gearing up for that session, I played for a month of online hands just solo, but not a ton.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How did it happen that you and your dad played that time?
DAN HIRSCHMAN: I moved back to Michigan to be close to family when my daughter was little, as I could, for the year. And he requested that we play a club game, so I did. I think I’ve played a club game every two or three years with him for the last 20 years.
JOHN MCALLISTER: According to the Power Ratings website, your dad is the best player in Michigan by a fairly wide margin. How instrumental was he in becoming the youngest Life Master?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: I mean, it wouldn’t have happened without him at all, so it’s to say – it’s a non-starter to talk about, really. To say “instrumental” – it would not have happened – it was largely because of him. As much as we became the youngest Life Masters, he was fully onboard if not leading the charge. Right? And you can use a different metaphor if you want.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: It was clearly something he enjoyed doing with us, and he sort of incentivized us learning to play bridge and playing with him. And also, he was very good. And he was particularly good at – especially for me [inaudible 0:18:34.3] with Sam – playing with a young, inexperienced partner. I think there’s a set of skills to be an expert player, and he had all of those, but he also had a particular set of skills for maximizing around your partner’s weaknesses and things. And so, I mean, I can’t imagine it – and I did play some sessions along the way with other people, including with Sam, but others as well – but it would never have happened without.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: I mean, we had some minor success together, Dan and I playing.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, yeah.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: At Flight B events and things like that. But I have 2,600 masterpoints. I think probably 2,000 of them were won with him. And actually, probably not quite that many because I did go out and play some in my 20s a fair bit with other people. But I was fairly seriously involved in the Junior thing from when I was 19 to 25, and I played less, but not none.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And what about you, now, Sam? Are you playing bridge now?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Yes. I like to do some mental gymnastics in the morning, so playing the free daily Bridge Base thing on the computer is just while I’m drinking my coffee at 5:30 or 6:00 a.m. And sometimes later in the day, I’ll go play the ACBL Robot IMP.
But I don’t have the uninterrupted ability to play a game with other players. My children are around – especially during COVID. My father has been interested in playing a session. Even in these times, it’s just very hard to commit that much time.
Now, I did go occasionally play a club game, and even a couple of two-session sectionals, through the time my children have been young. Yes, I play some. I play in local tournaments, things like that. Club games [inaudible 0:20:11.6].
JOHN MCALLISTER: Dan, how did you and your dad do in the club game that you played in –
DAN HIRSCHMAN: It was a pretty small game. I think we came in second or third of the seven or eight pairs our way. It was – we did fine. I did not make any – too many embarrassing mistakes is how I think about it. I mean, this is something interesting because – one of the things I most take away from my time playing a lot of bridge – I’ve actually written this a little on my blog – is winning was not the point. Playing well was the point. And playing well would often lead to winning. There were those times you make the correct play, and it doesn’t work out, and that’s what you got praised for. That was correct. And it would always strike me because I’d hear other people talking at the table after the hand, or whatever, and they’d said, “Oh, I should’ve done this instead of that.” And my dad would tell us afterwards, “No, that was the correct play. It didn’t work out. It was still the correct play. That’s what you’re going for.” You know? So I took that lesson away very strongly and bring it to other areas of my life as well. There’s a lot of situations that are much more ambiguous than bridge where the same lesson applies.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How much of it was taking your brother’s title for you? Because you beat Joel Wooldrige’s record by a pretty significant margin. You held the record for a pretty long time.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, I think my initial motivation was certainly tethered to that. I’ll have to tell you about – there’s a Sports Illustrated article from when Sam made Master that I was, I think, almost four when the article came out. And I think I was on record there saying I was going to beat his record.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: It was definitely one of the interviews that followed when you were five, or something like that, yeah.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah. And so, there was a motivation there. And I would just joke about it because I was antagonizing him. I didn’t care I beat Joel. I just care I beat Sam. But realistically, I think we started playing pretty seriously when I was about to turn nine, and it became fairly clear that we could do it with some room to spare. There was not a sense of, “Oh, I’ve got to race to beat Sam.” And Sam – we played together.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: He was going to beat me at all points in time, somewhat concurrent with my becoming Life Master, and even more so, I think, by the time Dan became Life Master. The structure of the events changed, and the character of a masterpoint became different, the difficulty of winning a masterpoint. So, we won – Dan and I played in Flight B events of stratified pairs.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Do those just not exist for you?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: The – stratified I don’t think existed, no. Flighted. I once almost went over at a flight piece in Dayton, Ohio that would have saved us two months on the road and would have –
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Because you had issues with gold points, right? Was it gold points?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: I actually had a gold point issue. There were no bracketed knockouts.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Right, right. Because I – early, middle of the process, we won a Bracket Two knockout. I got 16 gold points before –
SAM HIRSCHMAN: You were almost done. Right.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
DAN HIRSCHMAN: And so, it was just a lot easier.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: OK, yeah. You and me as a pair in bracketed knockouts, with a pretty solid pair for our 2000 points between us, or whatever. Or no, less than that. 1,600 points between us. And that’s not – I don’t even want to hint that there’s any kind of jealousy about that.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
SAM HIRSCHMAN: No, it was always very clear to me that Dan was going to beat my record. There was not an issue, and I was happy to help. And Joel in between – I hadn’t even thought of it that way.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Right.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: And I was fine when Joel took it, actually. It was not – I know I’d played with – Joel and I knew each other. There was a trip my father and I took to Buffalo when we were going for the record that I think may have been what started Joel. I’m not sure. I might have the timing slightly wrong in it, but there was definitely an interaction with – a team with Joel’s dad, or something like that. And I played with Joel a number of times.
JOHN MCALLISTER: When you had the title, did you see Joel coming for it? Did that bother you?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: It’s hard to remember some of this stuff, but there comes a time it’s like, done with media coverage. I mean, I had been on local – I had been interviewed for the newspaper. I’ve been on local television. There was a full-page picture of me – a picture on a full page in Sports Illustrated of me. I’m like, “OK, how much more do I need? I’m 12.” Or 13. So, I was kind of OK with not anymore of it for a while. And truth be told, I have not really sought out that kind of spotlight in any real framework since that. I was fine with – it was not a lot of fame, and I was fine with it. I don’t need that for myself.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, the Sports Illustrated wasn’t like a culmination for you. It was more of like, “Ah, man –
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Not at the time. It was fantastic, but it was like, what next? I don’t know, Dan, if you felt the same way about going on Leno. It’s like, what else do I do?
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: What more do I – you know? I mean, the Guinness Book of World Records was pretty good, too, being in that.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Which I didn’t get because they realized it wasn’t a world record.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Right. It’s not a world record. But I made one. There’s two years or something that I made it. I think Joel is, too – the one after me.
JOHN MCALLISTER: He is. He said yesterday. I interviewed him yesterday. He said he was in it.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Yeah. They stopped printing it when Dan –
DAN HIRSCHMAN: They realized it’s a North American record. For me, I think, it was somewhat similar. It was fun to get the media coverage. It was fun to have the title for a little bit. But there’s also a weird pressure attached to it. Like, yeah, you’re going to be some genius in this area or lay the areas in the near future. And I just wasn’t that – you know, it was a fun thing to do with my dad, and I’m glad I got the title. It was a fun year and a half to spend doing that kind of stuff, and to get some recognition for it was cool, and I have the clips forever. But I was kind of done. I opted out of the bridge playing scene much more progressively than Sam did after that.
In part, I think there’s also – the second thing here is that the timing of the release of other games – Magic the Gathering came out when I was about eight, nine. And we got into it right as I was finishing Life Master.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Absolutely. I was 18.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, here’s a bunch of – I can use those same skills and enjoyable activities with people who are 15 to 20 instead of 60 to 80. And also, they’re different games. They have different attributes. I like both of them, but that’s where I spent a lot of my teenage years. And so, it was kind of a fun game I could say to my card game friends – “Oh, yeah, I played bridge when I was 10, youngest Life Master.” And they were all sort of impressed by it. But then, I was playing this other stuff.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And you were on Leno?
DAN HIRSCHMAN: I was on Leno. I think the actual order here was, according to my dad, after the Life Master thing happened, there was a little bit of local news coverage, yada yada. And someone from Leno reached out – and he was kind of surprised by this. But then, nothing happened for a little bit. And then, I was in People Magazine.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: You’re right, yeah.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: The People Magazine story’s what led the Leno people to call us back and book me.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wow.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: I guess Leno really had to have – once a week or so, he’d have a Kid of the Week who did whatever. Like, “This kid trained his lizard to jump through hoops.” And I was the kid who played bridge. I was on with Fran Drescher and Leslie Nielson.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: That’s not bad.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Not bad.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: That part of [inaudible 0:26:43.2] well, actually.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yes, yes. So, that was pretty amusing. It was a fun trip. I got paid to go and hang out in Southern California for two days. It was a fun experience but also, I didn’t really watch Leno or find him particularly funny. I enjoyed the experience, but it wasn’t a life-long dream or anything, you know? And similarly, it did not give a thirst for the limelight or anything like that.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How many minutes do you think the interview was versus how many they actually showed on the –
DAN HIRSCHMAN: They showed most of it. Even this weird teaser thing where they – for the outro clips before – because I was the last interview of the night, right? Which was only five minutes. They interview the two celebrities first. Before, to tease the interview, they showed clips of me playing poker with the crew and taking all their money. Staged.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
DAN HIRSCHMAN: And kind of random. So, yeah.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: People love to make poker analogies. I don’t know if it was more communicable to the wider audience, but there were several things where I was set up as a card shark poker player kind of thing. Kenny Rogers’ “The Gambler” was played over – I think it was a local clip.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: It was either that, or chess, right? I don’t know – I think the movie Searching for Bobby Fischer came out right around when I landed Life Master, and so – I should look it up. I think that’s what happened. I got a lot of questions about what’s sort of related to that, including, “Oh, you must play chess.” I must be a wizard at chess. No. And I know the rules, but I’m not a chess player. But yeah, they were sort of searching for analogies. Partly, I think, because it reflects – by the time you – but especially as I made Life Master, bridge was decreasingly culturally relevant. Right? Or, the people for whom it was relevant was increasingly old and more and more of the kind of middle-of-the-age distribution. It just wasn’t a thing anymore.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And you guys have a sister, and she’s seemingly missed that – just passed – just said, “No, I’m not interested in playing.”
SAM HIRSCHMAN: She – we played a few – she came out. She has the masterpoints.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Mm-hmm.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: And we played as a fivesome – the family team in a few sort of local swiss teams at some point – like 10 years ago?
DAN HIRSCHMAN: I think for Father’s Day one year, she learned bridge for Dad. Dad taught her, and she played some sessions as a gift to him, almost. She did enjoy it. She actually, in adulthood, got more into other kinds of games, things we were talking about before. Card games, board games, etc. So, we had a sort of regular family game night. We’d play all sorts of interesting, complicated games. And once she’d done that, she was like, “Oh, maybe I could learn bridge.” She went back and learned. But yeah, she never got super into it, and certainly never got into it in a competitive way.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I think the age difference between you guys is like, nine years?
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Eight.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Eight.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, but do you – when Sam was 18 and Dan was 10, you guys were playing this Magic the Gathering stuff together as a family. I think that’s pretty cool.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: In between sessions of the swiss sessions pairs events, while we were eating some fast food, probably. [Inaudible 0:29:33.3] or something in the convention center.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, yeah.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: I think I can remember doing that.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, that sounds right.
JOHN MCALLISTER: When do either of you think the last time that you told somebody you were the youngest-ever ACBL Life Master was?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: It comes up once in a while as a trivial fact, or something like that. When I’m meeting new co-workers, it often comes up. I don’t know, I’m not even going out that much. I have two small kids. I haven’t been out for five years. So, it doesn’t come up very much at all, I would say. My students, every once in a while, somebody will trickle through.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: It’s come for me a couple of times in professional settings because I think people doing introductions for you will Google you.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Right? And that New York Times article is reasonably high because it’s New York Times. And so, if you Google my name, you dig through a page or two, search results will find it. So, once or twice, I think giving talks or something, people will throw in the fun tidbit, which is always a little weird. But in terms of myself introducing myself that way, it’s been a while.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Have you guys seen Andrew Chen, the current titleholder? The eight-year-old?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: I think I’ve seen a picture of him in one of the magazines. Does he play with his brother, or am I confusing him with an older pair of brothers?
JOHN MCALLISTER: No, he does play with his brother. His parents also play, so they play as a family some.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: The most convenient way to do it.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah.
JOHN MCALLISTER: He’s the first person I interviewed. I wasn’t planning to do the series of interviews, but I interviewed Andrew, and he’s kind of a difficult interview, frankly, because he’s so young. And then, I had the idea – I was like, wow, there’s this amazing tradition of people breaking this record. And invariably, just out of the way it’s set up, they’re always – the next one is older than the next one. And so, it’s been fascinating. This has been the first time that I’ve had a pair on as brothers, and it’s been a lot of fun to have you all revisit.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Is there just one other pair of brothers?
JOHN MCALLISTER: There is, yeah. So, yesterday, when I talked to Joel, he told me that you guys had a day of celebration, like an annual –
SAM HIRSCHMAN: That was my father’s party, yeah.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Youngest Life Master party, and that he seemed to take a certain amount of pride in ruining that tradition. (Laughter)
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Well, no, because the party didn’t – I don’t know if he got to ruin it. He might have come to it once because the party was always for Dan.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: The party started the year after I made Life Master. It was partly a way thank everyone who’d been on a team with us.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Ah.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: I think they might have had one big party for me.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: So, yeah. I don’t – yeah. The party as a tradition ran for 20 years, I think.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: No, they moved, I think.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: It was called, “The Dan Hirschman Youngest Life Master KO Teams,” and the first invitation was everyone we played – all my dad’s clients definitely, you know, fairly seriously professional player, and then all our friends, all his friends, and the people who’d play on teams with us – a sort of a “thank you.” And it became a yearly event that was quite bit. I think the biggest was something like 25 teams in our house.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wow.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, 120 people would show up.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Oh my gosh.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah. The food spread was enormous because they bought a bunch of food, but it was also sort of a potluck. It was a day long, you know. It was like a two-session event, basic knockouts. Each round gets shorter.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, it was like, 14, 12 boards, then 10 boards, then nine, eight, eight, and six. And if you got to the end, I think it was still six, but it was like, 1:00 a.m. by then. I won one year.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, yeah.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: It was pretty reasonable bridge. It was not a midnight swiss. It was actually like, the time you made the first couple of rounds, it was a real thing.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: It was handicapped, which was kind of fun because that didn’t actually matter. Because everyone was pretty good, but there was still a fair bit of variation. I played it a couple times and I tended money other times. And that was a tradition, and that lasted actually – I thought when someone else booked the record, which happened quite a long time ago at this point – he would stop it. He did not.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: We might have asked him to change the name – no. At some point, it just became “The Party.” It might have still been officially “The Dan Hirschman KO Team,” but it was “The Party.”
DAN HIRSCHMAN: And then, so it ran for about 15, 20 years at our parents’ house, and they moved it to the local club for a few years. And then, I think they finally stopped it.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Well, no, they didn’t have it this year. They had it the year before this.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Oh, they did. That’s right.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
DAN HIRSCHMAN: So, yeah. I don’t know what Joel’s thinking of. He didn’t ruin any – the tradition lasted a long, long time. Much longer than –
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Joel came to our house at least once. Joel was at our house at least once, maybe twice. It wasn’t that far to drive across Canada to go to Buffalo. Talking about five hours. So, we would turn up at the same tournament. Toronto, London, Ontario. We’d drive to Buffalo.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: You went to Buffalo a couple times, right?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, Buffalo or Syracuse, even. I think we drove there once or twice. And god help us, that was like, seven and a half hours through the snow because it was always in the winter. Maybe that one might have been in the summer. I’m not sure Dad would have actually done that drive.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: What was the – they went to Western Canada, right?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: OK, so, you know how yours was nice and – we knew what was going to happen.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: It was leisurely. We could take a weekend off.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Right, OK, the record before mine was like, 11 years, ten months and something? Or 11 years, 11 months and something? OK, so I beat it by a month and change. I didn’t – or maybe – it was more than 30 days, I think. So, we were going. They had that whole summer mapped out.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, yeah.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: That was like, Week 7 or 8 of 10. And we had two or three more. And it was gold points.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yup, right.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: I actually went over getting the fifth, sixth of the third day of a bracketed – no, of a Flight B Knockout.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Right? Where we won the first day, lost the second day. But they had the third day they get to get the points, right? So, we played that, and morning KO, or something like that.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Right? So, that’s where I went over my gold points. You went over – didn’t you go over in the midnight swiss but then, we weren’t 100% sure, but we then pick it out on a revoke – that the guy had revoked, so we actually did win our matches.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: So that was a gold point –
DAN HIRSCHMAN: No, no. So, I went over – I’m pretty sure it was one of these midnight swisses where they kept the best loser.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Oh, OK. Yeah. So, we both have these, “I lost and went over,” then.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, yeah. So, we made it to the next round by being the least-bad loser of the second round of the knockouts [inaudible 0:35:31.0] and got to make it to the money round. But then, the next day, we won five points in some other event.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: No, no. It was the knockout I’m talking about. We were like, third, fourth, or second, or something like that.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: It was uncontroversial.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: We actually had it with Dad and, like, Brenda Bryant, or something like that.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, a good pair.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: We, like, won points.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: So, yeah. Because he was – because everyone won, like, 0.5 points in that midnight knockout, or something. But you know, it had been an awesome – yeah. So, I do remember very much the losing to go over thing was really funny.
JOHN MCALLISTER: It sounds like your dad, if he’s professionally teaching bridge, like it must have been good for his business to have you guys doing something –
SAM HIRSCHMAN: There was no business when he was playing with me. That may have been where he got the idea, or people started asking him, or it may also be where he played enough to get good enough to be – to do so. To some extent, that’s when we started playing a lot. But he stopped being an attorney shortly after that.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Oh, he was still working as an attorney that whole time, wasn’t he?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Yes, yes. He didn’t stop. He did – basically stopped practicing law till I was 13, but that was before you --
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Right. So, yeah, when I was going through it, he was not working outside the home most of the time. He was the main caretaker. We had a lot of time, especially in the summer. We just had an open two or three months where he could just go to all the tournaments.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Right, and we had three of us also. I would go – I went with them. We didn’t go every week, I think for you. But the two summers – the summer I was 11, and the summer was 10 – we were on the road. Like, on the road driving to Lincoln, Nebraska. And you went there also, too, Dan.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: I did.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: I can’t remember if it was 115, and we walked to Denny’s the first time I was there, or the second time I was there.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: I think it was the first time because the second time we were there was when there was a tornado we could see from the convention center or whatever.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Oh, that was great. Yeah, OK. That was a fine tournament. It’s [inaudible 0:37:21.5].
DAN HIRSCHMAN: But his bridge career, that’s right. It took off between the two of us. By the time I was playing, he had a set of clients. And then, I think it got bigger after. Again, I don’t know exactly how he thought to do it, or –
SAM HIRSCHMAN: When did he – he taught the class. He taught a class at the club when The Bridge Connection in the [inaudible 0:37:34.8] Club opened up in its original location, although I think it’s a slightly different club from where they played it when we were – but whatever. That’s when I remember him really starting to pick up clients from that. Jack, and Renee, and – I don’t know if actually Jack was a client, but he was in class. But some of the other people who turned into – who later became Flight A players. It was essentially an advanced class, and I would sit in. It actually did somewhat help my game.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, was the ACBL the one getting you in Sports Illustrated, Sam?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: My mother, throughout all of this, had worked at the Detroit Free Press, the local newspaper.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Right.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: So, she had connections. So, at some point, it got mentioned, and I think she actually didn’t make a big deal out of it when it happened. And then, someone maybe gave her a slightly hard time about it. Like, jokingly, like, why didn’t you tell us, because they found the story somewhere else. One of the local news stations picked it up from somewhere.
Because I’d been interviewed right after I went over. The week after I went over, the nationals were in Salt Lake City, and I had been on the local media there. And I think there might have also been a mention in the New York Times, I think – in the bridge column of the New York Times.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, didn’t they [inaudible 0:38:40.4] a hand – you played with that [inaudible] thing?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Something like that. And then, there was a spread in the local paper. And then, I think, local media picked it up. Or these were all roughly concurrent. And then, later, the Sports Illustrated was after all – it was later. I was a fair bit older by the time they came and did that. I mean, fair bit [inaudible] six months. The local news was pretty quick, and then the Sports Illustrated thing wasn’t exactly out of the blue, but it took a while for it to happen. I know that magazine came out around May 1 of 1989, 8? When did Michigan win the NCAA championship? I’ll look it up for Rumeal Robinson. It happens we live in Ann Arbor, so it’s relevant that’s the Sports Illustrated I’m in. Right? I can tell people that one.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Oh, wow.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, right? So, I don’t remember if that was ’88 or ’89, but it might have been as much as a year and change later.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I think it was ’89.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Yeah, I think it was. It was a full 14 months after I had won the – or 15 months after I’d won, gotten the record, the Sports Illustrated article went out.
JOHN MCALLISTER: That’s a pretty cool one to be featured in when you live in Ann Arbor.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Oh, yeah. It’s a great issue.
JOHN MCALLISTER: It sounds like you guys were on a pretty aggressive run. So, once you went over, did you continue playing?
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Not at that rate. It was also time for school to start. So, it was a summer, right? I didn’t – one of my mother’s rules, I believe, was that I was not allowed to miss school to play bridge. I think this might have been violated once or twice, on a very short – well, on a short and planned basis, akin to leaving early for Easter Break, or something like that, to go to the Southeastern. We went to the Southeastern in Miami Beach a couple of times. Or Bal Harbour. We also – Toronto, at some point, moved to that weekend, I think. Or they moved the weekend my break was. So, it was always – the ’88 nationals – there was always a big tournament that I think we often – we might have, a few times, taken Friday off to go to that. But pretty much, I did not miss school.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: I missed school once or twice in that kind of way of leave early on a Friday to get to the tournament kind of thing. But because we weren’t under the gun time-wise, it was a little less intense. So, we played a lot – like most weekends during the school year, and then, the whole summer. Basically just that. But also, I mean, I was nine and didn’t have a lot else going on. It didn’t feel like an imposition. It was just – my dad, at that point, was our parent [inaudible]. Mom worked full-time, and so, hanging out all day with Dad in the summer was just what you did. It was not –
SAM HIRSCHMAN: We weren’t play outside and ride bikes around and play in the forest and climb the trees kinds of kids.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: No.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: And really, the internet didn’t exist yet enough to make us play high-bandwidth video games, which might have eaten up all of my time if I’d had them.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: I did sort of basically just stop playing after I made Life Master. Not super aggressive, but I basically didn’t play a lot ever again. I did start caddying quite seriously. It became my main job, ages 11 to 18. I worked all the local tournaments and some of the nationals, et cetera. Occasionally, I’d take a session while I was there, something, or be called in to be a filled in – tapped in a bunch of times, which was kind of funny.
So, I stayed connected to the bridge world quite strongly that way, but that was I did. I caddied, and I used money from caddying to buy cards for other games. Buy Magic cards, [inaudible] cards.
So, I was kind of done with it. I enjoyed it, but I had sort of gotten what I wanted out of it and was happy to move on to other things.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I think you guys are the most feted that I’ve come across in terms of being on the Jay Leno Show and being in Sports Illustrated.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: They had been the peak times. I remember, I was saying the average age of the league was 55 when I was playing a lot. Right? So if you think about who was watching Leno – or, I don’t know about reading Sports Illustrated, but there was still a large target demographic.
DAN HIRSCHMAN: There was still a bridge [inaudible. Right? It was [inaudible], but it was right up there with chess and all the other games that were kind of things that were in the cultural ether. And even by the time I was playing, it sort of somewhat stopped. And then, by the time I was 20 or whatever, when Adam Kaplan made it, I think it was becoming just an old person’s game. And so, I think that’s probably connected. Yeah, when I made Life Master, the league was in its early 60s, and I was the perfect Leno audience. But 10 years later, 20 years later, now, it’s a smaller group and even older, especially people who are serious enough to want to read articles about it or watch things about it. So, yeah.
JOHN MCALLISTER: The only news coverage I’ve seen from Andrew Chen is obviously, Bridge Winners, but he was written up in the San Jose Mercury News. That’s really all I’ve seen.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: It comes up in these conversations a lot, the decline of bridge in the world. And it’s something I’ve seen people work against, and I’ve never had anything good to come to mind about. It’s sad because it is a worthwhile thing to do, but some of the reasons I cannot play – I do not have time for a session, certainly live. Most of the time, my life does not have that in it, and I think the world has sort of gone that way. The main reason why they had to shorten baseball games.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that’s cool about COVID is that there’s this group of kids out in Silicon Valley, and they’ve started a Youth Bridge Association. And they’re having their first tournament online on Saturday. And so, I think the virtualization of – I was on a Zoom the other day with a friend of mine. We’ve never lived in the same city. And it was the first time doing Zoom, and it was so nice to get together on Zoom and be able to see you. I think there are positives that are coming from this need to be more virtual.
Thank you both so much. This was cool to meet you.
SAM HIRSCHMAN: Thanks, John.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Alright, Steven Cochran, thank you for joining us. Welcome to The Setting Trick.
STEVEN COCHRAN: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Will you please state your name and age?
STEVEN COCHRAN: Current age?
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yes.
STEVEN COCHRAN: (Laughter) Yeah. My name is Steven Cochran, and my current age is 58.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Whose record did you beat?
STEVEN COCHRAN: Oh, a girl who lived about 60 miles away from me named Regina Barnes.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Did you know her when you –
STEVEN COCHRAN: Oh, yes. She was a very good-looking girl, so I definitely knew her. Yeah, you know, when you’re 14, and there’s this good-looking girl who gets the youngest Life Master and you’re right there – yes, I knew her, and we played against each other quite a bit.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What was the requirement in order to get – was it 300 masterpoints?
STEVEN COCHRAN: Yeah, 300 masterpoints, and there was some gold, red, and black requirement – well, gold and red requirements.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And did Regina – did she cheer you on in this process? What kind of role did she have? Was she an inspiration to you in terms of –
STEVEN COCHRAN: Well, it wasn’t a competition. We were young bridge players playing for fun. And the fact that I made youngest Life Master was actually not a goal to achieve it. It was just, oh, it happened. It was more fun just playing and competing. So, we kind of cheered each other on when we did well because we were the young ones in the San Francisco Bay area.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And the two of you were sort of unusual. This was in the 1980’s. It was unusual that there were young people your age playing bridge at that time?
STEVEN COCHRAN: Actually, it was in the ‘70s.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Oh, excuse me.
STEVEN COCHRAN: Yeah. I’m old. I did that in ’77. But we were in a hot bed of bridge. The San Francisco area, we had – Mark Franklin and Matt Franklin lived down the street from me, and they were king of bridges. Regina, she lived in Modesto. I lived in Palo Alto. There was other young players, a guy by the name of Billy Miller. I’m sure you’ve heard of Billy Miller. He lived in Menlo Park. Used to go over to his house a lot and just ride a little motor scooter around because he had one, so it was really cool.
Yeah, it was a mecca of bridge. There was all the top – I shouldn’t say all the top, but a whole lot of top players hung out in the San Francisco area. There was a pair named Lew Stansby and Chip Martel who were, at the time, in the country, a couple of the top pairs.
It was a young group. I remember a guy named Bob Crossley, lived up in Marin. Young guy. Told us about playing frisbee in between sessions. That was mandatory. So (Laughter) it was a good time to play.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And how did you get into the game at such a young age?
STEVEN COCHRAN: I liked cards. My mom played, so she was an avid club bridge player. She played club all the time with a friend of hers. I went and watched a couple times and said, “Oh, I want to try that.” And over at NASA – there was a NASA base in my area, about a 20-minute drive – a lady taught lessons for free on Monday nights. So, you would just show up, and she would just teach you how to play. And I did that for a couple of months, and then started playing duplicate and said, “This is kind of fun.”
So, I went and played a lot, and I played – it was interesting. I played mostly with my mother. And like I said, she was a good club player. So, it was tough to do well it at higher-level events. But, I did OK. I qualified for the blue ribbon pairs a few times, and stuff like that.
So, I guess I did OK. The bug caught me, and so I was playing, and I met a lot of younger people. When I say “younger” – under 25, and we just played a lot. And I would sometimes go to tournaments and just pick up partners. Whatever it took. (Laughter) So, the bug really hit me.
JOHN MCALLISTER: The bug really hit you. It’s amazing to think that you’re doing this in 1970s, when there’s no internet. The internet is not even on. It is not even a blip.
STEVEN COCHRAN: Yeah, but I think – so, the internet became a problem because it took people – all the gaming and other adventures kind of took young people out of the game because I found it harder and harder to find massive amounts of young people playing. I remember going down to Pasadena and playing at the Pasadena Convention Center. It was called the – oh, I’m blanking on the name. But it was like, “Bridge Week,” or something. And you’d go down there and play, and I swear, there was five or six thousand people playing bridge.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wow.
STEVEN COCHRAN: And the whole convention center – every room booked with bridge. And it was great. I mean, you wanted to play in this event or that event, you’d have eight events to choose from in a day. It was a lot of fun, and I remember doing that.
So, after I became youngest Life Master, I continued playing through high school. I found a guy who was a few years older than me, so, still young. And we partnered up, and he took up the game. And so, we played together, and we did OK.
We were getting better and better, and then, these computers came out in the ‘80s, and it was a big distraction for the game, so a lot of young people went and played with computers. So, it took some of the fun out of it when a lot less of the younger crowd was there, and it became a very old crowd, or very, very young. And I got caught when I was in my 20s – I noticed I was in the middle. There was very few people my age, all of a sudden.
Yeah, it was exciting. And I have lots of stories if you want to ask any. Oh boy. (Laughter)
JOHN MCALLISTER: Are you still a member of the ACBL today?
STEVEN COCHRAN: Oh, yes. And I struggle because bridge is a partnership game. We all know that. You need a good partner. I took it upon myself to teach other people how to play, to get them to be my partners, because I did not want to find a partner who was 50 years my senior. And so, I would try to find people around my age and taught them, and I taught people when I was in high school. I started a bridge club, and we ended up with about 25 bridge players. And then, I went to college, and everybody in my fraternity learned how to play bridge just because I taught them. I wanted to find somebody who would really be my partner for a while, but I could just never latch on.
So now, I only play about once or twice a year. I jump in. Sometimes, I surprise people because nobody has any idea who I am anymore. I remember back when I was younger, I could walk in, and they used to give the high seeds, and I’d get a high seed. I remember I came up against Jeff and Eric Meckstroth, right? And we were high seed. And he looked at me and my partner, who was three years older than me. And they looked at us, and I think they figured that we just got the wrong entry.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
STEVEN COCHRAN: (Laughter) And my partner, of course, read the two names, looked at the two faces. I guess we should just put in the hands and said, “We’ll just give you all the matchpoints on this round,” because he just faded. He just – I mean, if I had played a hand, we would have been fine, because that was my strength was declare play, but he just got all nervous. And gave him a couple of contracts.
But I always got the real high seed because everybody in the San Francisco area knew me from the very beginning. And then, as I got older, it branched out to other areas. I just couldn’t find that magic partner to last. So, when I got out of college, I was playing a couple three times a year and just would play with whoever wanted to play with me. And it was at a time when most people kind of already had their partner. So, I was like, “Who do I play with?” So I was getting whoever as a partner. I mean, I took second in an open pairs with a pickup partner who was average plus. I think I knew how to play a little bit, you know. Not take advantage of anything. If you put declare play for me, I’m going to do well. That was my attitude. I struggle – and I’m still a member, and I get my bulletin. I read the bulletin. I read the articles. I still go, oh, I love the “test your play” stuff, and I go, “OK, I can still do this.” I just don’t get out and about enough.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Were you feted when you became the youngest Life Master?
STEVEN COCHRAN: Well, it was very unceremonious. It was at a club game. I got the points. I didn’t really say anything to people. Right? I don’t brag about accomplishments, right? So, I did that, and then a couple of people came over to write an article for the local newspaper. And I had my picture in the paper, and people in the schools were asking, “What’s this all about?” They didn’t even know I played bridge.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wow.
STEVEN COCHRAN: So, and it was funny because I was gone for a whole summer, playing. Around my 14th birthday, I took off with $200 in my pocket and traveled the U.S. and Canada playing.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wow. Oh my goodness.
STEVEN COCHRAN: Yeah. A 14-year-old boy with – I was with Bruce Ferguson and his group. I don’t know if you’ve heard of him, but –
JOHN MCALLISTER: I know Bruce.
STEVEN COCHRAN: Yeah, and he lived out in British Columbia. We met up in Seattle, got in his Mustang, and there was a couple of other guys. And we drove down through the middle of the United States, out to the East Coast, up to Halifax and all the way back to British Columbia.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wow.
STEVEN COCHRAN: Yeah. That was when I first experienced that you can actually make money playing bridge because I only had $200, and I ran out of money real quick after the second tournament. And so, they go, “Well, why don’t we get somebody to pay you?” And people would pay – we called them “little old ladies” at the time. You know, very nice ladies with a lot of money who wanted a partner who could help their scores. Get them some matches, get them some masterpoints. And so, I did. Made a little money.
So, we’d go to a tournament, and I’d play in one event with a real partner. And usually, the real partner was somebody I’d met that day. So…I remember taking second place in the Calgary tournament, in a swiss team event, with three people I didn’t know before we got there. And I go, oh – they turned out to be pretty decent players, so it was fun.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Are you still in the San Francisco Bay area?
STEVEN COCHRAN: No. About 10 years ago, I moved out to Florida, and now I live – which is supposedly another hot spot for bridge. And I’ve gone to a couple of tournaments out here, and I always tell people I’d like to play, can they find – I’d call the tournament director and say, “I’m a decent player. Can you find a partner that is a decent partner?” Oh, boy. The things I get set up with sometimes are incredibly – well, they’re very nice people. Let’s put it that way. They’re extremely nice people that I play with, but don’t usually score too high. We’ll get third or fourth, and they go, “Wow, that’s the best I’ve ever done.” Third or fourth in a section. And I’m like, “Oh, OK.” But that’s OK because I don’t have tons of masterpoints, because I played back when getting 300 masterpoints was a feat.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah.
STEVEN COCHRAN: And now, you can do that fairly quickly. Winning a regional event would get you like, 25 points. So, it was fun though. I think the highlight was my trip across country and just learning about playing bridge day in and day out. We had a guy who was sponsoring us, a guy named Clarence Goppart was sponsoring our group. He just sent us on this goose chase saying, “Well, I’ll see you at this tournament.” Well, we’re driving, and he’s flying, you know? He’s staying at the tournament. We’re at some place where you didn’t turn off the lights because if you turned off the lights, all the roaches came out.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
STEVEN COCHRAN: So, you know, two different budgets. But, learned a lot about playing bridge and how to play bridge well, and that helped. And it wasn’t a push to get points. It was more just, hey, this is a great adventure. And it worked out well. I didn’t really know if I was going to get the youngest Life Master or not. So – and I wasn’t really focused on that. I was more focused on just having a good time playing. I really, really love the game. I just wish I was finding partners where I could play. (Laughter) Because I do love it.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, you were a pretty good player by the time – from the sound of it, when you became a Life Master.
STEVEN COCHRAN: I think I was. I mean, at every tournament I went to, I was getting written up for my declarer play. I was playing against a guy named Garey Hayden, who was a very fine player. And I finished declaring a hand, and like, on the last three tricks, he was endplayed. And he looked at me, and I smiled and go, “I gotcha.” And he goes, “You knew?” I go, “The whole time.”
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
STEVEN COCHRAN: So, he goes, “Oh my gosh.” So, yeah, I got – I used to be able to do all that kind of stuff. I could read the game real well, and just had – that was my strength, was that. I always thought of bidding as fairly simple. It was all about who your partner is. If you have a good partnership, then you know what each other are doing, and that was always fun. I never got into fancy conventions, so I kept it simple. I focused on declare play and defensive play.
One of the guys I played with a little bit, a guy named Neil Chambers – he was a very fine player from Canada, and he taught me that the goal is to have 16 to 18 plus scores out of your 26 points. He goes, “If you can get 16 to 18, you’re going to be in the winners’ circle a lot.” And I go, “Well, how do you do that?” And he goes, “Well, work better on your defensive play, and always make your contracts.” So, and he goes, “If there’s only one way to make a hand, then that’s the path you have to take. And if there’s only one way to defeat a hand, that has to happen.” And he goes, “You’d be surprised how often those would happen.”
So, I changed my way of thinking to, “What’s the only way I can make this hand?” And it really helped.
JOHN MCALLISTER: You said you had a hard time finding partners, and Regina is this attractive girl –
STEVEN COCHRAN: Yeah.
JOHN MCALLISTER: From 60 miles away. Did you ever ask Regina if she wanted to be your partner?
STEVEN COCHRAN: I did, but here was the problem. We were 14. (Laughter) We couldn’t drive.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Right, right.
STEVEN COCHRAN: So, I did ask her a lot, and she was very polite. She said very polite “no’s.” So, she was very attractive and apparently, I wasn’t measuring up. (Laughter) Which I’m OK with. I just go, “OK, I get it.”
The Franklin brothers lived in my area, but they were each other’s partner. So, and they developed their own system of play. And I’m like, “OK, can’t really get into that group.”
So, I was looking for a lot of people who really wanted to play, and I noticed Regina stopped playing as much once she – or at least I didn’t see her as much when she kind of got to the Life Master, whereas I kept playing.
But I was also an athlete, so I would do things like run a marathon and make sure I was done before noon so I could make it to my 1:00 start for my afternoon open pairs events, or whatever. Right? And between sessions, do things.
And while I was in high school, didn’t have much money. And I had now found a buddy to play with, but I was teaching him along the way. When he and I would go to tournaments, we would sleep outdoors. We would bring sleeping bags, and we’d have enough money to cover some food and the tournament fees, and the gas.
I remember one time, San Diego tournament, we were sleeping on the beach. I wake up, something on my face. I realize I’m now in the ocean because the tide had come way up. You know, being a kid, you know. And all of a sudden, I wake him up and go, “Hey, we’ve got to get to the game, and we’re in the water.” And we were literally – our sleeping bags were completely submerged. And we were both sleeping in the wet, and it was like, oh my gosh. But that was the right price for a hotel. It was free. (Laughter)
JOHN MCALLISTER: But sleeping on the beach, you’re 14 years old and going on this cross-country journey. Your parents must have been pretty open-minded.
STEVEN COCHRAN: Yeah, well, my parents were divorced, and we had nine kids. And we were living with my mom. I think it was OK for me to be out of the house. (Laughter) It was just – there was a lot of people there. Usually, we averaged about five or six living at home, so it was good that I was gone doing my thing.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Right.
STEVEN COCHRAN: And I think we had met Bruce at a tournament one time, and my mom said, “That’s fine if you go with him.”
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wow.
STEVEN COCHRAN: And I’m like, “OK.” You know? (Laughter) That was – isn’t that funny that we’d just trust? A lot of trust. That was a good experience, and a lot of fun.
I played in the club, but then started looking at just playing sectionals, regionals, where I could see better players. Although we had some very fine players in our club, it was fun getting out and playing against the best of the best and seeing how I could stack up against them. I always wanted to play in those early morning knockout team events, and I never could because I could never get a team that would be willing to wake up early. (Laughter) They’d go, “Oh, an evening session would be fine.” And I’d go, “No, this is at 7:00 in the morning, so you’re still good for the afternoon games.” And they’d go, “No, we’re not doing that.”
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, the knockouts at regionals at that time were in the morning?
STEVEN COCHRAN: Yeah, you had one session a day. Those would be for – like, if the tournament was five days long, they’d have a session each morning. And that usually whittled it down to finals, and if they had to do a finals – they didn’t want to take those players out of the big games because those were often the top players. And if they had to choose between going into knockouts, or going and playing in their pairs events – because a lot of those people were professional. So, they had to kind of choose which events to do, and that was usually based on – not on their say. Right? So, yeah. Those would be not concurrent with the big events like the men’s pairs, open pairs, et cetera.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, this guy who was sponsoring you – I forget his name, but the gentleman who was flying to the tournaments…was he paying you all to play knockouts with him? Or were you playing pairs with him?
STEVEN COCHRAN: I only got to play on team events. The other guys, he would play individual events with. And then, there was lots of people who were willing to pay a little bit of money to play with me, this young kid, because at the time, I was known. So, that was fun.
I remember, during that summer, I had to get down to – I was in Kansas City, Kansas, and I had to get down to St. Louis. And the only person we knew driving there was Ron Smith. And so, he says, “Well…” I didn’t have any money, and he was kind of tapped out. And we’re driving Sunday night. Right? So most gas stations weren’t open. So, he had this little Beetle, and we didn’t have much gas, so I remember we drove that whole way. He drove me to my grandmother’s house in St. Louis, and we were right behind this huge semi truck. We’re in that little wind space. The whole time, and just watching our gas gauge. Oh, and he and I talked the whole time. It was a great time, but I was like, ah, this is a unique adventure. And we got there and had enough gas, so it all worked out. Those were times where you would just – you had to get from tournament to tournament. And I was stopping at my grandmother’s because I was going to see them for a bit because there was a little gap, and then go on to the next one. Those were fun times. Different – I think they’re different now.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What are you doing professionally now? You said you were –
STEVEN COCHRAN: Well, yeah. I became a CPA and did that for eight to ten years. CFA and CFO. While I was being – I was also a professional soccer player at the same time. So, I was a semi-professional. We got paid and got new jerseys every week, all that kind of stuff. But then, I became a high school math teacher and soccer coach, and that’s what I do, and it’s a very nice, relaxing job. And I teach CPA classes also. So, I do a lot of teaching, which makes sense with all the teaching of bridge I did. I did a lot of teaching of bridge to a lot of people and kind of wrote up how to play, and taught them.
I remember back even when I was in my teens, I was friends with a guy named Ben Hardy, who was a caddy. But his dad was more well-known. His dad’s name was Max Hardy, and was a director, and author, and player, and all this. And I got to be part of some of his writing because he let me give some insights on some of the play, and stuff like that. And so, I’d read over his – when I went over to their house – they lived in Southern California, and I’d stay there, and I’d read over the manuscripts as he was writing. It was kind of fun. And notice I’m flipping pages – that’s how old-school I am because I know it’s now all on a screen. (Laughter) It was all typewriter.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Oh, wow.
STEVEN COCHRAN: Different time. Then, I tried to continue strong enough to take king of bridge. You’ll notice on king of bridge, I was the first two-person king of bridge, which was an interesting thing, and I don’t remember why. I think it was something with the timing of the cutoff of the points, or something like that. But maybe we had the exact same number of points. I don’t remember. It was many moons ago. And on that one, I got no fanfare at all. I was like – when I listened to Jeff talk about the fanfare he got for king of bridge, I’m like, oh, for king of bridge, they sent my scholarship to my high school, and my high school kept it. So, I go, “OK.” And that was the extent of my king of bridge. I got a letter from the ACBL saying, “Congratulations on being king of bridge.” And I’m like, OK. And that was a whole – for me, king of bridge meant nothing because I was like, “Oh, it doesn’t really mean anything, I guess.” And then, I hear he got to go to these cool events, and I’m like, “Oh, I would have liked that.” That would probably have changed my outlook because actually, when I was finishing high school, I wasn’t going to go to college. I was just going to go and – I liked playing bridge and thought I could do that. And then, I had a change of mind and said, “Oh, I’ll try college.” And it worked out really well. So… (Laughter)
JOHN MCALLISTER: You would have been 24 when they had the first world junior championship.
STEVEN COCHRAN: What year was that?
JOHN MCALLISTER: 1987. They had the –
STEVEN COCHRAN: I would have been 24, yep.
JOHN MCALLISTER: World teams championship. I think that was for under 26. Was that something – that just totally was not on your –
STEVEN COCHRAN: I didn’t even know about it.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Not on your radar, yeah.
STEVEN COCHRAN: No, I didn’t – and at that time, I was still playing. I was probably playing monthly, but I didn’t even know about that. Information back then was tougher to get. Now, you can Google anything and get it. Right? But back then, there was no Google. There was no internet. Well, I guess there was an internet because that started in ’79, but I didn’t even know about that, and I would have loved to have been given a chance.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, I’ll tell you who the U.S. and the first-ever one that was in the Netherlands, and the U.S. team was Guy Doherty, John Heller, Billy Hsieh, Asya Kamsky, and Aaron Silverstein.
STEVEN COCHRAN: OK, I know a few of those. I’ve played against a few of them. Those guys are all quality. There’s no question.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Sure, sure.
STEVEN COCHRAN: Yeah, and I never compare – I don’t like to compare one player to another because everybody has their strengths, especially pairs have their strengths, you know. (Laughter) So, I would have been – I would have loved to even been given a notification of, “Hey, we’re thinking about this.”
JOHN MCALLISTER: Right.
STEVEN COCHRAN: Because at that time, I think I was still playing very well, but I was trying to get my partner to become a Life Master. So, I wasn’t playing with a guy who was seasoned. He was very intellectual and had tremendous potential, and we just – you know, it just didn’t pull off. And plus, it got tricky once we got a bit older and we had lives. Now, I mean, I’ve got four kids and a home, and I’m still active. So, it’s – and a wife who doesn’t play. And trying to sneak away for big tournaments? Ah, that gets a little more difficult. But I still try to get away. Whenever I’m driving around and I see there’s a tournament, I just drive in and play. I’m still like that. I’ll just pop in and play, which is kind of out of the ordinary because people go, “Well, didn’t you get a partner?” I go, “Actually, I just heard about the tournament. I was an hour away. I drove here. I’m good.” (Laughter)
I remember all those great days. I remember I played against a lot of these top players, you know? A lot of guys from the aces. I played against this guy named Omar Sharif.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah, sure.
STEVEN COCHRAN: And I didn’t know who he was, and I scored a couple of good boards against him. And he had, like, six people watching him, right, and I was this no-name. And we got a couple of good boards, and he came up and talked to me. He goes, “You play very well.” And I go, “Well, thanks.” And I just kind of talked to him like a normal person. And then, somebody says, “You know he’s a famous movie star.” I said, “Oh, I’ve got to go and watch the movie, then.” Because he was, that was his big thing, but he also played for the team out in Italy. You know, he’s a pretty good player. What were they called? The Lotus Team, or something.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Blues.
STEVEN COCHRAN: What’s that?
JOHN MCALLISTER: Blue Team.
STEVEN COCHRAN: The Blue Team. But I thought they had another team – another name also. And he was just such a fine player.
JOHN MCALLISTER: A team that was called, like, the “Omar Sharif All-Stars,” maybe.
STEVEN COCHRAN: My memory of those little things is harder for me to get. And I used to like playing against all those guys like Paul Soloway and Barry Crane, and I heard your podcast with Ron Smith when he talked about Mark Lair. And Mark Lair scared the bejeezus out of me. He was so intense. And I found out he was actually just this super nice guy. But he was – he looked so intense when he played, I thought he was going to rip my head off or something.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
STEVEN COCHRAN: And then, I talked to him afterwards, and he was just a nice guy who was just totally into the game, which was awesome. But he did. I remember the first time I went up against him, I was shaking. I didn’t know what was going to happen. I didn’t know bridge was that kind of game. And then, I realized, it’s just passion. That’s good. (Laughter)
I’ve been lucky. I grew up in an area that was just a hot bed. And was a hot bed of young players 25 and under who all were just incredibly good. And it forced me to play well. You couldn’t make a mistake or else, they’d just rip you up. That was it. You make a little mistake and you go, “Oh my gosh, I just gave them the contract.” And you’d see a smile come on their face.
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
STEVEN COCHRAN: You know? And it was like, OK. Because we knew each other, and I was the newbie. But we had some respect, but it was – they were very, very fine players who played day in and day out. And I was a high school student, or actually a junior high and then a high school student. I couldn’t play all the time. I actually had to go to school once in a while. Couldn’t drop out yet. (Laughter)
JOHN MCALLISTER: Well, we ought to play sometime. We ought to play. Do you play on Bridge Base ever?
STEVEN COCHRAN: Is that online?
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah.
STEVEN COCHRAN: Yeah, I’ve never played online. I assume it’s fairly easy to do, but –
JOHN MCALLISTER: (Laughter)
STEVEN COCHRAN: It is?
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah, yeah. (Laughter)
STEVEN COCHRAN: We should play sometime. That would be fun. I really – I do really – I think about the game a lot. I’m trying to inspire my wife to play, but it takes time to learn the game.
JOHN MCALLISTER: We’ve got to get you teaching bridge to your math students again.
STEVEN COCHRAN: Yeah, I did that. I was at one school for 20 years, and I started up a bridge club there. And I had some people go, and they actually took it and started playing in their university when they were in the ‘90s. And then, when the 2000s came, a lot of them said, “Well, you know, there’s all this online.” And I go, “Oh.” “We can learn online.” “Oh, well, then what am I here for?” It was great when you couldn’t do it online. You actually had to have a person.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Right, yeah.
STEVEN COCHRAN: I keep striving to try and understand the game better. Even though I’m not playing so much, I’m playing in my head. So, I can read the bulletin, and that just gives me a whole bunch of deals. And I’m thinking, well, why would they do that? And why would they do that?
One of my favorite old stuff was Bridge in the Menagerie. I don’t know if you ever read that.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah.
STEVEN COCHRAN: And those characters. And I go, “That is so true to life.” You know, you get at the table, and you’ve got those characters and why they’re bidding what they’re bidding. I remember I had one partner who said he had trouble when he first started with me because he couldn’t bid my hand. In other words –
JOHN MCALLISTER: Oh, yeah.
STEVEN COCHRAN: I tended to bid a little aggressively because I would say, “I can make that extra trick.” And he tended to bid his partner’s hands because he was a professional player, so tended to do that more. He learned real quick a few hands in, he goes, “Oh, we can’t do that.” (Laughter) Because I might be a little light, I’ll come through. So, not like really light, but more of an aggressive bid than a pseudo bid.
I had a lot of fun on that trip that I went across country playing, and it was so interesting because I was the guy who didn’t drink because I was 14. Everybody else in their 20s getting hammered at night, and they’re looking forward to the after party. I’m like, “Time to go to sleep.” You know? Maybe watch a movie. What else do I do? I would be more focused on, hey, maybe I’ll go out for a run, or maybe I’ll play some sports. Or maybe I can get in some extra games. Maybe I can find pickup partners for the early morning games, or something. And just play, play, play.
I played so much, I learned so much about the game. And knowing when to be aggressive and knowing when to lay back, I think, was a big thing that taught me at that time.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Well, I’m grateful to be able to reengage you with bridge as a part of this episode. I feel like an ambassador for –
STEVEN COCHRAN: (Laughter) I like that.