Today, my guest is Selena Pepić. She is a computer science graduate from ETH Zurich, a rates trader at JP Morgan in Paris, and a member of the Serbian national mixed, women's, and junior teams. She won the gold medal at the World Youth Open Championship in Opatija 2015 (girls U26), the bronze medal at the World University Championship in Lodz in 2016, and also won an event at the Junior World Championship in 2016. Join us as we talk about Selena’s background, playing bridge in Paris, her thoughts on the American bridge community, winning women’s events, and more.
[04.11] Missing bridge – Selena shares the reason behind quitting bridge for 2 years at university.
[21.03] Problems – Selena shares why she loves talking about bidding problems in bridge playing.
[25.10] First partner – We talk about the relationship between Selena and her first partner Giovanni.
[47.19] Playing blackjack – Selena dives into the story of playing blackjack for the first time.
[1:01.19] Novi Sad Bridge Festival – We talk about the Novi Sad Bridge festival happening between April 28th to May 2nd of 2023.
Resources
Connect with Selena
LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/selena-pepic/
bridgewinners.com/profile/selena-pepic/
The Setting Trick - Selena Pepić - Part 2
John McAllister 00:08
Are you generally the best at the board games that you're playing?
Selena Pepic 00:13
I'm in general, I'm pretty sure. I mean, some people would say I'm not. I'm pretty sure I am. I the only the only actually person is very funny. The only person that's actually close to me is my sister. So my sister, like, she started, like, two years ago when she joined her student dorm. And she just started beating me, like, at all costs all the time. And she was like, this is glass. Why didn't I do this like sooner. But she's also extremely competitive. So I I played some games with her. And I was shocked because I'm like, I just started losing. Like, I never lost the game. And she just came out of nowhere. We play the liars poker, variations of that. And she's so good. She's like, so good. So yeah, I found myself competition.
John McAllister 01:19
Does she play bridge.
Selena Pepic 01:21
No, I knew that was gonna be the next question. No, I actually. She wanted to do it at some point. And then I didn't want her to do it. Funnily enough, because I didn't know I was like, in kind of a moment, it takes a lot of time just can't do everything properly. Like she's very. She's very, like, I need to do my stuff. She's very functional. She like she has exam she's studying to do the exam. She's not sleeping, like she's doing her stuff until she's done. And she's gonna be the best there. While I'm like, Yeah, but I have like four more days, I can play bridge tournament and then like, you know, and I know that I've definitely like stress her out with a lot. I had my my parents at some point started like, doubting what's going on with bridge and University and me. It was like, one summer I played. So we went to Israel, we played Tel Aviv festival for seven days. Then we went to juniors tournament, a junior slash, like European Championship in Slovakia. Then I went with friends to Moscow. I played bridge there, as well. And then I went to play transnational. And my parents were like, you have bunch of exams, you will not get the university one for masters. You will not get scholarship at all. Like, maybe it's fine to just focus now for like two weeks, three weeks, and then you can play bridge, like as much as you want. And I was like, yeah, they're right. I know they're right. But some nights before, matchpoints in [-----]. Everyone was there. Everyone was playing bridge festival. And was like, after midnight. I talked to like a girl from Zagreb, and she was like, hi, I really want to go play this tournament. And I'm like me too. And I called my parents and I was like, Do you trust me? And they're like, Yeah, we always trust you. And I'm like, but do you think I can make it through with all the exams and everything? They're like, yes, of course you can you always made it you're gonna make it tomorrow like in like a week or so? And I'm like, Okay, if you trusted me like could you pick me up from the train station and take me to the airport tomorrow? So because I can I want to go to [the tournament] they’re like, in how many hours? In five?
John McAllister 04:11
What was it like when you didn't play for two years at university? Like did you miss it? Did you think you'd quit for good or what? Like, are you how did that work?
Selena Pepic 04:23
I knew I'm not gonna quit. I was I was 100% sure. Like, not for a second in my life. Like the only the only thing because of which I would quit which is like if I have continues bad results. And I'm just I can't improve properly. I think that would like stress me out completely. And I would be like, there is something better I can do in my life than lose in this game. But at uni I well, I had to like change my BBO passwords and lock it in some file and then share the password for that file. Like that was that was a must. So I did that.
John McAllister 05:05
You know you can reset the password.
Selena Pepic 05:09
I don't know what I did with that I changed the email as well, maybe or something like that. I'm not sure. But like, I was like I was all the way like wow. But then like, the issues like I play a bridge when I'm stressed. So like my I'm having a night studying. And usually before the exam, I'm asleep for like 48 hours working on that, I usually need a break to like, just reset my mind and be fresh. So like I was missing that. So I started playing chess. So I was in chatbot like two and a half hours a day. And I was like, how is this different? time playing game and are you in bed? Like, I then I had to block my chess account. It was bad.
John McAllister 06:11
What was it like when you came back? And like how did you decide like that you were ready to come back.
Selena Pepic 06:17
So I finished my exams at some point. And I just didn't know what I want to do if I wanted to PhD, if I want to do my masters and then decide if I want to stay and like I was doing some international language processing. And then I also realized finance is actually very interesting. So I didn't know what to do with my life. And I actually took like, not a real break. I was taking some courses and stuff. But like I didn't do nothing anything mandatory. So I was like, Okay, I there were some new juniors in Serbia, that didn't know about me at all. So I spoke to I think Jovana and another Junior. And they were like, maybe you should join the group and start talking to people and it's COVID. So I have nothing smarter to do. And like they're also so my my issue with Serbia and junior team was like that we never had six five players. And we never had actually six players that wanted to play bridge serious and not even like being fine. But they're they were all smart guys. But they just didn't want to do which they wanted to do like our bridge a month, a month or so. Yeah, so they call me and they're like so they're two new guys and they really want to play bridge seriously and and there are like some other juniors that that are playing a lot and maybe you should come around and then my coach also called me and he was like, would you consider coming back? Who would you play with? If you come back there are these tournaments in juniors? What will your plans be? So I quietly activated my BBO and joined like silently as a kibitzer on some of these tables. But I like they all knew about me. So at some point, they contacted me and all of that and how they hated me after after a very short time worse than done. Because I was I was like we are gonna play this tournament. But I want everyone to analyze every single board from this match and send me their analysis and like if you don't do that and that that so like people that knew me. They were like yeah, it's just classics Selena. She's, she wants to push us all to like try harder. But like people that didn't know me, they were like they just she just came from nowhere to just ruin our fun. Like we now need to comment on every single card we played. So I think I'm in general good teammate for people that want to like be pushed and push but I don't think I should spend any time ever with people who just want to play bridge for fun. I think I'm terrible for people that want to play bridge for fun because I just don't get it and I don't know how to act like I don't know how to behave and be like Yeah, it's cool this one's favorite forum be subtle with for it's for that both are fine you know. We taught bridge for a bit, Jovana and me, and I just go to that table. I take like four best deep like guys around and like course I sit with them. And they are so excited and passionate about bridge and like they want to be better. And I'm like, This is what I need. And like I can talk with them. But like I need to be able to tell them that lead was very stupid. Like what was the point of that lead? Because if I can't tell them that you I usually don't know how to say, Oh, well done. If I don't think well done.
John McAllister 10:11
Have you ever played against Jeff Meckstroth?
Selena Pepic 10:14
I don't think so. Probably remember, if I did, so I probably didn't.
John McAllister 10:22
He's, he's, he's probably the he's probably one of the toughest partners I've ever had. I've only played with him for two days. But he, like, yeah, he was rough. It was. I remember, there was one deal. We're playing in a knockout match. And I led something, and my right hand opponent had shown a strong hand. And I lead away from an honor. And he said, I'd never heard somebody else say this before. He said, the correct lead is like, a difference. Like it was a passive lead. Yeah. And I was just like, wow. And after the tournament, I remember being really upset with him. Like, at first, I sat down across from him like, Okay, wow, this is Jeff Meckstroth, you know, this is like my dream to be sitting across from Jeff Meckstroth. He's so good. And because I was nervous, and then I was like, excited. And then after the two days, I was really upset. Because I felt like he was he was, he was hard on me, you know, he was challenging me. And so I was driving back from, like, it was like, eight hours drive from the tournament to my house. And so I'm driving, and I'm listening to this podcast. And it's an NBA player, like basketball player. And he's talking about how Chris Paul was, like, he just demanded excellence from his teammates. And it was really helpful, because it helped me see that, like, I wasn't giving my best effort. And it actually was really great that Jeff was hard on me in the way that he was because I wasn't giving my best effort. And I did give the other team some kind of freebies. And it really, like made an impact on me, and I had my best year of bridge, you know, in the in, like, the next 12 months. So it's hard, though, you know, like, it's hard to, it's hard to, you know, when somebody does something that's, you know, stupid or, like, you know, it's definitely that's, that's like one of the challenges of bridge, like, part of what makes bridge so interesting is like that. The after, you know, like the postmortem of boards and, like getting across your point without alienating.
Selena Pepic 12:47
You see, I completely agree there. Well, your second conclusion? Is I, at the beginning, yes, it's hard when people are hard on you. So now I'd bid with a lot of players that are better than myself. And I did have like, in the last couple of years to play with players that are better than myself. And there are two different types, those that get depressed, and they're like, Wow, you're actually not that bad. And you're a woman or whatever. And some of them that's just actually never said, Well done, or very, very rarely said, well done. And I prefer not having well done because I prefer not. I prefer my partner expecting me to be very good. Because like, they say, Well done, and I think it's it's a normal thing to do. And I should have done that even five years ago. Then I feel like oh, you actually have a low opinion about him. In a way. So I prefer like when I played with Mikael, for example, he's a good example. I play four diamonds doubled in a matchpoints game and we bid it nicely and I made it and it was 92% and he said But why don't you play this to make extra tricks? And I'm like, I think this can wait for after the tournament because like four diamonds doubled you know it's gonna be a top if I made 10 tricks. Yeah, he's like, Yeah, but like, if you counted this person here, you will figure out if you can play this with a high chance of making the 11th trick. I both like it and dislike it at the first moment I like dislike it, just be happy we made four diamonds doubled but the second moment, you're like, Yeah, he’s right? It's actually like, if I thought about it, I would have realized that and I just actually like that he doesn't say well done that often. And he he would like if I bid with him and we get one board with like less than three stars, it would be like, what was with that one no trump opening. That's like two out of 10 points for you, guys. And he's like rest in peace the perfect score No, but that's so he found me. I played an experience with Palma. Now in New Orleans, and yeah, which is amazing partner and player before the tournament, I said, Please tell me whenever I make a mistake, any sign, like the minor mistake or major mistake, just tell me. And he looked at me like, that's not what you want. And I'm like, No, that's what I want. Trust me. Like, I want to like know about all my mistakes.
John McAllister 15:52
Like, in the moment or after the session?
Selena Pepic 15:56
Oh, depends. I think I don't mind if at the moment, but I probably do. Most of my partners mind. So we don't do that. Yeah. Jovana I never do. {Yeah, I think that's smart.} But yeah, he, like he did wait after tournament. And then he was like, that's one Oh, strong hand if I had this, which is probably a better way to do it. Yeah, I definitely thought so. Like, yeah, I don't know, do you think like you probably already think about the previous hands too much. If you look like a person that thinks about previous? I mean, I do think like, it's very wrong. But like, I think it's very hard to block that.
John McAllister 16:40
I mean, I think that, like I played with this guy, Nick Jacobs in, in New Orleans, in the Vanderbilt and the Swiss. And Nick was great for me. Because before we even started playing, we before we even really talked about our system, like I had given him like my system notes, like, whatever, 15 pages of system notes. He's like, he talks about like, manner at the table. And he said, he said, it's like the best pairs are not, there's not a lot of discourse between the two of them. They're not talking about like, and so we basically agreed not to talk. Like we agreed not to say thank you for the dummy, not to say good luck. And not to like, I mean, we even had like if something came up where we had a misunderstanding, because we were playing my system, we agreed beforehand that we would that what I did, we would interpret that as correct. So we weren't weren't even going to talk about the error, we're just going to go on to the next board. And that was super helpful for me, like super helpful to, like, be like, it helps me like, because one of the things that I can do is I can get mad at my partner when my partner does something. Like why would you do that? You know, and it really helped me get in the, like, winning mind frame. And I think that's like, I'm not like, technically, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm capable. But like, really the best way for me to to win is mindset, I think.
Selena Pepic 18:09
Yeah, yeah. But what do you think about you, for example, you went by far now in Vanderbilt? And if you went even further, what do you think about even talking after the, like, if you play a seven day or 10 day tournament, what do you think about talking in the evening about the boards? Do you think you should talk about a reaction?
John McAllister 18:28
Or that's what we that's kind of what we did. Like, if there was something where it was like a kind of a bad score or screw up? Like, yes, we talked about it that like after the session, but like, there was really helpful to not really talk about the boards like, to generally save that for after the tournament, because it was like less, I didn't need the energy. And I and there's some things that I didn't want to relive, you know, like, like, frustrating things. And so, to save it for after the tournament, I think that like, I think that I'll want to have similar agreements with partners for you know, major type events going forward.
Selena Pepic 19:09
Yeah. Now we have a Jovana I put a stop watch at the lunch break. And it's like, okay, all right. We have like, five minutes to talk about. And then we can just talk about any topic, we have to like, start liking each other again, you're gonna hate each other after five minutes. We know. Something nice. So we kind of need to, like find a topic for after that, and we need to like show that we are enthusiastic about loving each other. I mean, it's not easy. It's just, you know, it's not it's a good thing that like we if we don't have a solution on a board, we disagree. We're just gonna asked like, five people are posted on Bridge Winners And like whatever five best players say, we agree that's, that's the that's what we should do on the board. And in Serbia, that's not really a thing. I don't know why. Like in Serbia is like, I'm so smart. And I'm so good. So what I say is, no matter what Jeff Meckstroth says, or whoever? My my, yeah, but like Serbia has never been top in European Championship. So like, if we were so good as everyone claims like, Why? Why haven't been been like closer to the top. And Jovana and I have like that that agreement like we do know something about bridge which so we can agree on something. But if we can't agree, then we should ask someone and. And like no hard feelings one of us is right. And that's fine. So we just move on.
John McAllister 21:03
I noticed you've posted a lot of bidding problems on Bridge Winners so that this all makes this all makes sense.
Selena Pepic 21:12
No, I actually love talking about problems like, I can do that the whole day. And we like we actually have good mindset about that. Starting like, when we started to play bridge, we played 2015 when we started playing bridge and 2016 we already analyzed all the boards from the major tournaments and send it over to like, best Serbian player, so that's fine. But like even that helps a lot. And I think, yeah, 2016 2017 most of like, before I stopped playing bridge in 2018, you're just going to all the boards ever, like from not from festivals, but like even from festivals do something he's like, basically even. But I think like analyzing boards is like, hey, like, brings you so much. I don't know, it's just you sometimes feel like illuminated, you're like, okay, maybe I shouldn't be opening one notrump. Maybe it's actually not working that much. So, yeah, it's just, I mean, two partners, and they both want to win. And we both want the same thing. So let's just find what's best. And if we're both reasonable, it should be fine. At the end of the day, I guess.
John McAllister 22:38
What's, what's an example of a hand from from New Orleans? Like where you had an lunch session? You know, you had a lunch session, you had the timer? What's an example of something that you talked about after like two to remember that you liked each other again?
Selena Pepic 22:57
Oh, well, we talked about after? Well, like, in general, gossiping, is usually helpful. Funnily enough, if you like talk about random gossips and stuff you're like, Oh, I've heard this or that, which is like, so random, but it's kind of like it's important that like, kind of takes your mind elsewhere. So it has to be decently interesting. So if we start talking about her work or my work, that's not gonna work, because like, it's more stress for some other stuff. So we will talk either about our sisters, or she has a sister as well. Or we will talk about yeah, gossips. In general, about some people from Serbia well, it can be bridge gossip, that's fine. Like, it can be a gossip about a board. And she will be like, Oh, maybe I bid this like more but like, listen to this bid from I don't know. Now, I'd be like, yes, I'm happy to have you. You're right. But yeah, it will be should be like something that should make us kind of laugh. So yeah. We never tried like, going back to room or like going to like, we never relax our tournament. I thought about that last time. Like we stayed in some hotels where like they have, you know, places where you can relax and stuff and like, you actually need to like relax. At some point, you just need to stop thinking about bridge and like, go to the next day fresh. And it's just like how do you do that? So we are investigating all the possible ways to like actually do that. I see a lot of like, do I say a lot of like, I just became self-conscious of what how much like I say, like.
John McAllister 24:50
I've been told by a listener that I say it too much. Somebody listens to this podcast. Yeah. Like, yeah, then I'd say like too much.
Selena Pepic 25:02
Oh, like, oh, yeah, I mean I beat you 100%.
John McAllister 25:10
Is Jovana or like she is your first real partner? Like, Was she your first real? That's amazing that you're both still on the same trajectory?
Selena Pepic 25:21
Well, we haven't been we stopped playing together at some point. And then we played for the first three years, and then we stopped. And yeah, I think, at the end is like, even if we are not perfect partners for each other, we have similar mindset and similar ambitions. Like, even if I love some partners in Serbia, will they come to US to play NABC with me? Will they have time, money, if they have kids would that be possible if their kids are young. And it's also easy like to we like each other, or we like spending time with each other, I probably shared room with her more than anyone else in my entire life, including probably my sister. And we, we know how to function with each other in that way. And then also, at the end, we have the same like view on how to get better. And she's like, I'm not the smartest if I was the smartest, I wouldn't be here, I will be somewhere else on top of this, this result list or whatever. And I have the same view. So we both agree that we both want to get better in the same way, which is, which is very important. I think I I had partners, which are better than both of us. Better cardplayers for sure. And I don't see the potential, to be honest. Like I don't see the way that they can, like, go even higher than that. And with Jovana I see like the potential to go higher. And with myself, I hope I see the potential to go higher, because I'm like, I don't see where I'm stuck. Why would I be stuck here because I would do something to overcome that. And and that's something that matters. And that's something in Serbia that you just can't get with many players. They, they play a lot of bridge by like just playing out the bridge. If it's questionable, even if Kluklowski just can sit on online and play along the bridge and get better by just playing. Or go to like a club game in, like, if Kluklowski was born in Serbia and played through it and never opened. Bridge Winners never went international tournaments and never spoke to like better players than himself. Would he? Like, where would he get? It's interesting to think about that. I think I read he never like he never read a book or he almost never read like he read almost like do a book or something like that. So he obviously is very talented for the game. But it's like how much of that help is like his partner? How much was he watching? What was his way of learning? Because I don't think you can just play play, play, play play. I think you need conferences, slow down and like look backwards and look like what's, what's there to improve. So how come
John McAllister 28:33
So how come you chose Klukowski for that example?
Selena Pepic 28:35
Well, because he, he won, he won the Bermuda Bowl when he was like, 19 and then I've read one interview, where I think he said he didn't he doesn't read books. So I was just thinking like how you're 19 you don't read books. So what's going on? But I watched a lot of interviews from successful people and spoke to many successful people and they all say playing with other players and against better players is the best way to, to like get better. And now like some years after I'm like, I don't see actually there is other way like, not just best way but like I don't see like they I don't think there is a way without that. And that's why I don't think I can like play with women seriously and with the same enthusiasm and the same passion and it's just like I want to play and I play so much better. I play so much better playing against better players I I think about things that will never come to my mind. And I always did like when I I remember I played the festival in Bulgaria. Like maybe when I was playing bridge for a year and half, two years maybe. And I played non events, the panel on on viewgraph. And they play strong club. And they were also that point, like there are a number of Bermuda Bowl with their team. And they had a client in a team as well. Good time, but still find. And they're just Bulgaria. They're not like Poland. They're not Italy. They're not Sweden. They're not us. So I was like, Oh, my gosh, okay, I'm playing death match. And I think we played we played with my Marusa Gold and Betsy? Like Lady Falcon ladies or something like that. It was it was very nice. Yeah, yeah. You know about that one. Wow. That's it. Yeah. How do you like it?
John McAllister 31:02
It was great. I used to have some Bulgarians as my teammates and partner for for some of the Nationals. So I played with them. Probably 2014 I think it was, yeah.
Selena Pepic 31:20
Nice. Yeah, I had like, there was like, so she opened two spades. And my opponent doubled. And I had like, king-fifth, void, king-queen five times and ace-jack-third. And, like, if I played any women's event, even though I was just probably bid four spades. Then I was thinking, so what are they gonna do? What do I Where do I want them to land? How are they going to think? What would I think if I was smarter, or whatever. And I just, it's like so many things in my head, which I didn't experience before. Because in ladies tournaments, and in weaker fields, you just want to try with four spades. And then if it goes, something, you might want to try to five spades and whatever. But here, I was just like, I remember my heart was like beating. And that that's something that you can't get at women's event. Your heart doesn't beat. Like it's very silent. I like my heartbeat. Again, I just took five spades and put it there. They were like double past six hearts pass pass pass and I led my king of diamonds, and they went one down. And I was so happy. And the whole match was like that. The whole match. It was like they open precision, and it goes pass three diamonds, and I need to decide on something. And I've never been in that situation. And I just need to like, think about their system and everything. And we won a match by like 33 IMPs or something. And we were extremely happy. But the point was, I just made a bid out never made before and I would have never made before because I play opponents, which I need to play in a way and love this card. And I'm playing people that are stronger than myself and I need to like get into their mind. And yeah, that's, that's the amazing thing is you just want your brain to like, get to the new conclusion. Which I usually don't arrive to and when I play women unfortunately,
John McAllister 33:44
I have to ask, can you make six spades?
Selena Pepic 33:48
No, it's down two well, it was down two the other table. I'm not sure you can't make it up because you're missing ace of diamonds ace of spades for sure. And then I think …
John McAllister 34:00
That's tough to do. Got it? Yeah. Ace of diamonds and ace of trump's on that layout it's gonna be hard to think you know, they probably got a leading a heart honor. I would have bid six spades I don't know what the vulnerability was though. Didn't tell me the vulnerability.
Selena Pepic 34:23
Yeah, we were non vulnerable they were vulnerable so our two spades was quite weak she had queen jack nine six cards in spades and 10-fourth of clubs. That was all yes in some other scenario Yes, I would agree but weaker and with our system back then we had like that's why we have vulnerabilities files like you can't open to a strong hand in nonvulnerable and stuff like that. So I was I was pretty sure there is no six spades on a board. But I was like she can’t have way too much. Like, ace, queen jack of spades and king of clubs is too much.
John McAllister 35:09
I've been wanting to ask this question for a long time. And now I'm gonna finally ask it. Who's more into it? You are Jovana or do you think it's like, kind of equal?
Selena Pepic 35:23
Ah, that's an interesting question. She, she's a big lover of the game. She, yeah. We, we love getting completely different. She loves the game. And she would be able to play in a club forever. Like, I haven't been to Serbia bridge club in last six years, probably. Right. So she loves games. She loves teaching kids, she loves going to bridge club. She loves reading books, she read probably like more than 50 books. I'm not joking. And, and I love like, I love the winning side of the game. I love. I'm like, I want to have this sequence in my system. And I want to know what's best thing to do here. And I wish I wanted and I could enjoy going to a club, and maybe not finishing first in a club. But it would kill me it would destroy me. She's fine. She's like we went. And then this person did that. How funny. And I'm like, this is funny, though. Like, is it really funny, you know? So she just loves the game. Like, without any kind of like she loves the game. Without limit on any side. For me, there's like, I love it. But under these conditions. So my love is conditional. And maybe my conditional love is bigger, but like she loves bridge unconditionally.
John McAllister 37:10
And this is the question that I wanted to ask before asking that question like this question came to mind. And that I wanted to ask it probably like 15 minutes into our conversation, but I was like, No, I can't ask that. And I was gonna kind of ask it as a joke, because I don't expect you. But do you know what the question is?
Selena Pepic 37:30
Maybe, but I'm not gonna say, but I can't imagine no.
John McAllister 37:35
Do you know, don't want to say what you think the question is?
Selena Pepic 37:38
No.
John McAllister 37:40
So you have to tell me if it's it. When I asked you the question, you have to tell me if you think it's the question I was gonna ask. Because I don't necessarily really want you to answer. But yeah, it's kind of a fun question. But, you know, maybe not fun if you if you like, anyway, who's better?
Selena Pepic 37:58
Oh, my gosh. No, we not, that's a path we would like we will have everyone without exception. Compare us like every single person in the universe. And that actually brought up a bit of, you know, it's like, we were like, We don't care. But then she did care at some level, especially from certain people. And that was that was the issue. Like, I honestly think I didn't care ever what people think I was like, some people would comment on someone somewhere and I was like, really that’s the comments you want to make. But I actually have had like, how the thing there's like, I'm never gonna I played challenges like crazy. I played with everyone from junior team with the coach with everyone from open team from other juniors. I never played a single challenge with her. Never. I'm like we don't compete in this game. We play this game cooperatively and like, if like if we actually have to, like talk about who's better than we have issues because that the thing is like, we kind of need to we would probably agree on some stuff like who the better was better in leading who's better in card play, who's better? Having focus and stuff like that? Who's better playing new partners and who's better? So I think we would have pretty much the same responses in certain aspects of the game. I think she would usually she would probably be better playing with like, in Serbia for sure. Like if she picked a partner in Serbia and I played with the same partner she would be, she would have made a better result. But I think even like, maybe because she goes to club game, maybe I don't know. But when she picks like wide range of partners, I think she can play with every single type of player with the aggressive one, the pasty one, the weak one, the strong one. Like and she always could, like, even when we like, when we started playing games, she, she like plays with a wide range of players. And she plays well with all of them. And I probably have a bit narrower person on the other side in order to like play really my best game. That's that's one and then I spend a lot more time on, I spent a lot of time on bidding. And she she didn't focus so much on bidding, she was reading books, and she likes reading books. And and so that's another thing. So I love bidding I love not the system itself. I don't care about system. I love deciding what am I going to open one heart or three hearts or four hearts or two spades or one spade and I had these discussions like I probably five to 10 of these discussions before our conversation today already. I actually did send to I actually did send to Mikael while I was I did the daily on Cue Bids, and there was some random hand and a couple of days ago Mikael was like, ah, with this kind of hand can't decide to bid you can't pass. You can't if you have to open either one spade or two spades, you can’t pass. And today, he passed. Or Ola passed and he said he would have done the same. So I was like your rules mean nothing, like meaningless. So I spend a lot of time on figuring out how other people bid. I mean, you see it from Bridge Winners. And she's not that active in that type type of stuff. And then she spent a lot of time on declaring problems and bridge books kinds of problems are the problems. So yeah, we enjoy different types of game. Like different segments of the game. I'll put it that way.
John McAllister 42:20
Here's an easier question. How much of a dick is Mikael?
Selena Pepic 42:25
Oh, he's crazy. Yeah. He's, yeah, he's completely crazy. He I think he can do that. He can do bridge for not not like 90% of day every single day. And wouldn't he would be fine. I don't think I've ever met a single bridge player. That's that crazy about bridge? And no, I think he can talk about it forever. And he can like, it's just like he whenever he plays club game or talks with someone, he always has a bunch of hands. And he always sends it to everyone. And he's like, ah, but this person would bid this, this person would do that and blah, blah, blah. Even I think he's now in Majorca. I think he's teaching old ladies. Well, old people. And he was like, Oh, I shuffled the board and I got this. And then he said your hand yesterday from like he did. Like he loves the game so much. It's it's very nice to like, follow someone loving him so much in a way. Also pretty much unconditionally I think he he hates Redbridge. But apart from that. He loves the game unconditionally.
John McAllister 43:48
I need to get on his email list. How does he send the hands out. Is it a group text? Or does he send it out individually?
Selena Pepic 44:01
He has a group with some [ ]. And then he has a group with I think, [ ] and Palma. And then he has another group and then he sometimes remembers that I'm not in many of those, like random groups and he has a history with me. But yeah, he it's just like he always has a bunch of hands. Like if you asked him in the middle of the night. What did you do yesterday? He would say Oh, I had this yesterday and he was always like, even if there is nothing interesting in the hand, he would be like but what if this was in my hand? Then it would be interesting. So it's complete mindset.
John McAllister 44:52
How did you how did you first meet Mikael?
Selena Pepic 44:55
Ah, we played World bridge series. Well, we played [ ]. So they won the under 26. Competition in pairs, we won 26 Girls. So we were on a podium, and in the on the village, or whatever, but we never met that there. We were like, those two arrogant brothers walking around thinking they're so smart. That's half a joke. Yeah. And then what was it? So we actually played teams, but we didn't play against each other. They didn't let us so we had a team in Serbia, and we were like, Oh, we want to play them. And they were like, No, you're not gonna play them. And we just had to accept it. To have us sit out that match. We really want to play them. We I think we ended up on Butler above two of them. So that's my still my success. I was like, eight years ago, we played the same tournament. This is our butler score. This is yours. He hates that. We played the world bridge series. I think there was a junior Junior meeting, juniors meeting the last day of the event in in some random place. And I went there, and I was so excited going there. And then the table was placed with like, girls on one side and guys on the other side, and like they talk, about football or whatever, soccer and the girls spoke about lipsticks and stuff. And I was like, You know what, I'm not gonna sit here. And then there was a friend from Norway. And she was like, You know what, I'm not gonna sit here. So she was like, I'm gonna go to the casino. And I was like, I'm coming with you. So I went with her to the casino. That's actually a funny story. I found with her too, because, you know, she forgot her passport. So she had to go back to the room. And then she was like, can you just tell my friends that I'm coming? Because I told them I'm coming. But I need to go get my passport. Like, yeah, sure who’s your friends. And she's like, Helgemo and Helness. And I'm like, Ah so I went there to the blackjack table, And I was like, I just wanted to let you know that she's coming. And then I sat there and they play blackjack. And apparently, from the moment I arrived, they started winning and I didn’t know what it means to win in blackjack. And then I had to go and I was like, Okay, I'm done here. They were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're not going anywhere. And then they gave me some chips. And they were like, just sit. If you’re bored, just sit there. And I'm like, I don't even know what it was. Like, there are a couple of people there. And they taught me rules. And then I played blackjack. For the first time in my life. I made 400 euros. Yes. Wow. And everyone was like, yeah. And everyone was like, Oh, we're gonna do the same thing as she's doing. Because she's obviously doing well. And then I did some very stupid mistakes. And they just looked at me and they're like, what's wrong with you? So yeah, and then after the tournament, because Jovana stayed there in the juniors place. She said that she told me that Mikael said where is your partner? And she said, well, she's gone to the casino. And he said, How rude. Like she didn't go to the casino at any time. But like, now the juniors like meeting and talking and she left, and I was like, and then I apologize that I left and then we started speaking about stuff. And yeah, we quickly became friends. I think we met only in Slovakia next year. And then by then we spoke about a lot of bridge and it was fun. We played for a match against Sweden. So I was like, Okay, now I'm gonna play that my first match against Sweden, and then their coach, didn’t let them play. But we still won. Yeah, because our first match and we won we played and Adam [ ] at our table and [ ] at the other day it was our first deep match. And we won. And I remember that that match. My heart was beating as well. Because I knew like they're amazing players, and at that point, they already had like, decent success. But like my focus it's just so much stronger. And I just keep my 300% and Jovana as well. And it's just more exciting. And like, I don't think they wanted to win so much as we wanted to win. Like it was just a random match for them. For us it was like a [ ]. And now we were in.
John McAllister 50:19
Last question, how close are you and Jovana to being on the Serbian open team?
Selena Pepic 50:26
I think it's gonna happen next year. So before this, we played 2019 was Belgium. We played in women's team. And I think we decided we're not going to do that ever. Again. We didn't play with each other, though. But we played. And then at some point after Lisbon, we decided we're not going to do mixed anymore. So now, it's either going to be open or nothing, basically. And given that some of the partnerships that were actually strong split in Serbia, I don't think there is almost anyone decent that can actually be on that team that actually wants to play. So which is bad on one hand, because like you would really want a strong team, as well. So we were talking about that right now. We have team trials as well in Serbia, which is like we have six pairs in total and we hold team trials it's ridiculous. Yeah, I mean, not six pairs, but like six pairs that actually know something. In that regard, we actually like we are actually friends with all of the people there. So we actually don't mind at all being on team with one pair from one team and one pair from the other team. But they do mind. Now we are pushing for pair trials to be held instead of teams trials. We're going to talk more about that in [ ] now. And yeah. Are you do you think you're gonna play trials yourself? Is it is going to be soon, right? In a couple of weeks?
John McAllister 52:05
Well, yeah, I am playing the trials and playing that's that's why I was playing with Michael that the other day because my teammate Max Schireson is playing with Michael's wife, Debbie. Yeah, and my partner's Will Watson. So we're playing the trials four handed starting, I think on May 1.
Selena Pepic
How long is it?
John McAllister
So there's 14 teams. So we're playing like a round of 16 and two teams have byes and we play two-day matches. And the winner advances I've yet to I've never won a match in the trials.
Selena Pepic 52:44
Really? How many times do you play?
John McAllister 52:47
Yeah, I've played four times, I think five times. I played four or five times and so sometimes there's a round robin the first couple of times there was a round robin. And I got out of the round robin once didn't get out the other time. And then didn't get out the third time. And then last time, we just had matches and we almost beat the Fleisher team but we couldn't quite get it done. Similar team we had Anam and Stu Rubinstein were on our team last time otherwise the same four.
Selena Pepic 53:24
I had my my, my favorite hand ever against Fleisher actually. So for me, that feeling of when you mention, I always think of the hand.
John McAllister 53:38
You what you always think of the hand?
Selena Pepic 53:41
Yeah, when you say Fleisher, for me like Fleisher means the hand.
John McAllister 53:47
You're gonna tell me about that? Or what?
Selena Pepic 53:51
If I, I mean, I just need you to ask me about the hand and then I'm like, okay, yeah, I want to tell you know, we played the second round of Reisinger. The second day of Reisinger. Yeah, and the hand was king-seven-fourth, ace-jack-third, small doubleton and nine-fourth. And they had better spots. A lot of spots.
John McAllister 54:24
Now I'm saying you're giving me a lot of spots like you gave me the seven.
Selena Pepic 54:28
That seven is important. That's why I gave you. So Fleisher open a diamond unbalanced? My I got one heart on my left. And one notrump on my right, which was clubs. And then …
John McAllister 54:51
Sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry, I missed. So Fleisher opened the bidding a diamond on your right or left.
Selena Pepic 54:57
It's a constructive bid. So diamond on my right heart on my left, a notrump, two clubs on my right two spades, which is just artificial forcing. And now
John McAllister 55:10
A diamond, a heart. One no, which shows clubs, okay?
Selena Pepic 55:17
Yes. So two spades artificial, okay. And then three clubs natural. So most likely 5-5. Three diamonds natural. So probably like slam try but maybe like, I have issues with spades in a way or whatever. But probably the slam try was what diamonds so three diamonds, diamond support three hearts natural, which now looks like a one two five, five. And I don't really want to bid three notrump. And now 3NT on my left, all pass. So now, I'm quite confident that on my right, right, I have 1-2-5-5. And then on my left is probably three diamonds, most likely four hearts. And then some number of spades and clubs. But then my partner didn't bid any spades. Didn't double two spades either for a lead. I was like on this kind of bidding, where this guy bids two spades, this guy bids three clubs, and this guy still doesn't want to bid three no. And they go back and forth. They're like, I need to lead a spade in a way. But I just didn't like leading a small spade. Because this guy like Fleisher didn't seem like he let go, you know, three no trump he didn’t bid any diamonds or anything. He didn’t bid three spades to ask for stopper or anything. And my partner didn't double so like she would likely that we'd double quite likely there like, she would definitely double with queen, jack nine eight in this position, because like, they're not gonna play spades on the board. Like they have maximum six cards in spades. So I have a king of spades on the hand. And it was queen singleton on my right. And ace-nine-eight fourth on my left and partner had jack-ten-fourth with the six so now he tried to make more than nine tricks because he was like, Okay, this good. This lead is no good for me. Like I can't if I make nine tricks, it's not going to be ideal because now we take King Jack 10 of spades and ace of hearts for sure. So he tried to make more tricks if club finesse was on, but she held up. The dummy was ace-nine-eight fourth, Queen fourth, ace queen jack third and ace doubleton.
John McAllister 58:07
Hold on, tell me the dummy again?
Selena Pepic 58:09
So ace, nine, eight, fourth, queen eight fourth, ace, queen, jack, third, and ace doubleton. So now
John McAllister 58:27
Declarer had stiff queen of spades.
Selena Pepic 58:29
Yeah. And now he can always take five diamond tricks a spade and four clubs. But he three clubs or whatever four clubs. But he decided to like if the king of clubs is on side to make extra trick because he probably realized at board a match, it's no good, like, making nine tricks in this hand. So he played because if he doesn't get a king of spades lead, he would always take the club finesse. So now he played club finesse anyway, and he went down in a hand. And at the other table, they played six diamonds and went down. So we actually needed him to go down and not make nine tricks. So he was actually very nice, because like I never led something like this. I never liked from king-empty. King. Yeah. And it's like first time I led it ever in my entire life and it was good. And I was like oh my god, this is like the best feeling ever. I do lead crazy stuff. I like to lead crazy stuff. But from King empty fourth I never lead. Never.
John McAllister 59:40
What did he say? Did he say anything?
Selena Pepic 59:43
He saw he said I think he said like well done or nice one or something like that either. He played. Cedric Lorenzini played at the other table. So before the next round started and he was like, Hey, that was a nice one. And I was like oh Oh, thank you. So he obviously thought, and I was happy about that. Yeah.
John McAllister 1:00:07
Yeah, that's cool. You know, like when somebody when people see what yeah, you know?
Selena Pepic 1:00:13
Yeah, yeah, I
John McAllister 1:00:13
It’s one of the cool things about it is I getting complimented, you know?
Selena Pepic 1:00:21
Yeah, it's it's one of the nicest things, especially from people like them. Which, you know, we watch we watch them on BBO all the time, and I grew up like watching them on BBO. And now they say, Well done that and I'm like, I never thought this was gonna happen. Yeah, yeah, finally happening.
John McAllister 1:00:44
You're doing a festival and yeah, it doesn't sound like the way you say it is not like the way that I would. I would pronounce the city where you're from, but you're having you and Jovana I think are have a festival in Novi.
Selena Pepic 1:01:00
Novi Sad.
John McAllister 1:01:02
Novi Sad. Yeah, oh,
Selena Pepic 1:01:04
That's a good, that's good. In 13 days now, so it's in two weeks time, basically.
John McAllister 1:01:17
So tell it tell the listeners like because they're not going to this today is April 15. So it starts on April 28.
Selena Pepic 1:01:24
Yeah, it starts in April 28. So basically, we were organizing this festival for some time, but nothing this format. So now it's going to be a lot more international players. And it's usually players from like 15 countries coming around to the festival, which is nice. It's very nice venue. Nice hotel, nice atmosphere and festival. Nice food, like very cheap food. Very, very cheap food that I say that I mean, very cheap food. And also very good food. Like we the good thing about Serbia is like, because of the all the wars and like all the people that occupied Serbia and Serbia occupied or whatever, like a lot of cuisines merged. And it's like we have the best from Turkish cuisine, from Hungarian cuisine, from Austrian cuisine, from German cuisine from Bulgarian cuisine, Greek cuisine. It's like, best of all the cuisines ever. So it's a very nice place. It's like Novi Sad. It was European culture capital of 2019. I think. So it's like a culture city of Europe. And then it was European youth capital. So it's obviously to have young people. I mean, honestly, my favorite place on earth. And I don't think it's, I'm biased. I really love the place. And it's also very nice to like, show it to other people that come around, because …
John McAllister 1:02:56
It's where she's from.
Selena Pepic 1:03:03
Yes. But it's, it's just an amazing city.
John McAllister 1:03:10
Who are you playing with in the in the events.
Selena Pepic 1:03:14
So I'm probably going to play in Paris with a friend from Croatia. And then team event I'm playing with Jovana, but one pair is from Croatia and one from Slovenia. So we are making. So there was a country called kingdom of Slovenia, Croatia and Serbia 100 years ago. So we are reviving the country and the kingdom in term of like in terms of a team. So we are having this amazing team, and we won the event last year, the final match against Hungary. Now we are defending the title of this event, and then matchpoints I’m probably going to play with Jovana as well. So that's going to be nice. And it's not it's actually yeah, sorry. So matchpoints. Finally, as it is, matchpoints, tournaments in Serbia, even like only with Serbia, and no international people are actually tough. And that's because people actually spent a lot of time on cards, and books and everything. So like bidding is very messy. Like they're very smart people. So like taking tricks is no no issue for them. All these types of deceptive plays and stuff. And we have a very good pair. Very good matchpoint partnership in Serbia. Also the best pair in IMPs but like in IMPs, they have competition and matchpoints they just win every single tournament like every single tournament, like Pula, They are they were best players in Pula bridge festival and then like wherever they go, they're just very good in matchpoints. Unfortunately they don't play much internationally.
John McAllister 1:05:12
Is there going to be is it going to be on vugraph the teams or any of that stuff on Bridge Base?
Selena Pepic 1:05:17
So we decided to you know, Stefan, right? He's promoting Into Bridge platform. I hopefully he's also going to be there and we will we will do the broadcasting on Into Bridge. Tournament. So yeah, we are he claims it's amazing. Wait, I actually have even Into Bridge you're gonna love this. I need to send a video. Ah yeah, so we will we will broadcast it on Into Bridge.
John McAllister 1:06:01
Got it. If somebody wants to get in touch with you, like listener? How do you recommend that they do that?
Selena Pepic 1:06:10
Yeah, so there is I can give you my email. So my, that's one way and then there is also Novi Sad Bridge Festival Facebook group, well Facebook page with all the details and everything but they can also contact me on on Bridge Winners or or Instagram, Facebook, whatever. But Bridge Winners is probably the best.
John McAllister 1:06:36
Okay, yeah, that's what I was gonna suggest. All right, well, Selena it's been so much fun. Like I had no idea of what, what a tiger. You were in terms of. Yeah. Love your attitude. And this has been this has been a this is my longest conversation. I don't think I've I just did one that was a little over two hours. Yeah, I think this is the longest one.
Selena Pepic 1:07:04
Wow, I'm like, It's my pleasure. Ah, you're gonna make me cry now.
John McAllister 1:07:11
Well, that. So maybe now's when I get you to agree that we can keep the thing about missing the plane for your parents. That I know that's not my intention. You can think about it because we'll have to delete this part to have any way you can think about it.
Selena Pepic 1:07:33
Okay, okay. I can think about it. Gosh, maybe I should tell them. And then. I mean, you know, it's like, my huge arguments whenever. They're always like, you're gonna be late, you're gonna be late, you're gonna miss the fight. You're gonna miss your flight. And I'm like, I'm not like 200 flights, probably I've never missed the flight. And they're like, Okay, fair point. And now if I if I tell them this … by the way, we're still made it.
John McAllister 1:08:18
So are you playing the open in Strasbourg? Are you going to be gone?
Selena Pepic 1:08:23
Oh, we might play? I'm not sure about my vacation because my manager wants to take vacation in the same week? So, that's hard. Yeah, and then we are still not 100% sure that we have team. So I would want to play with Jovana. But then, I would also want to play in the nice team. And then this team might want to play as well. So yeah, we are still talking about all of that. Figuring the details out. I mean, I would really love to play it. And I mean, that’s a tough event among many good teams. But even if I'm not playing it, I'm probably gonna stay both first and second weekend and come to watch it. So because it's like only an hour and a half from Paris, so it's, it's nothing. I just go directly to the venue watch some bridge and go back home.
John McAllister 1:09:25
Okay, cool. So I'll see you then.
Selena Pepic 1:09:27
Yep. See you then for sure. And we play some board games?
John McAllister 1:09:31
Yeah, yeah. And the mind.
Selena Pepic 1:09:36
And the mind. Alright, yeah.
John McAllister 1:09:38
I'll let you know when we're publishing this. Thanks so much. Thanks for your flexibility. I know. It was ridiculous that I asked you about that.
Selena Pepic 1:09:46
No, no, not at all. Now, thanks so much as well for asking me and for having me here. And it was very pleasant conversation. I could talk I would say this focus forever. I was like, Oh, are we gonna have If I were gonna have topics, I could stay here forever
John McAllister 1:10:06
Well, that's the spirit. That's what I like to hear. I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah, I can keep going too. But you started talking about that, Serbian food. And it's lunchtime here. I'm like, What am I gonna get for lunch? Like, what am I gonna get? Like what? Like, like, just when you started talking about the Serbian food, there's a bakery. That's like, that's right across the parking lot from me, that has really good cinnamon rolls. And I don't think I'm gonna get that for lunch, though. I mean, I want something more, more more substantive.
Selena Pepic 1:10:48
Do you have a favorite thing? In U.S. is Sweet Green.
John McAllister 1:10:56
We don't have a Sweet Green here. But we do have something called Roots, which is vegetable bowls. I actually like it better than Sweet Green. And there's the the the original one is here. And there's I think a couple more. I think this place is going to be nationwide. It's it's really good.
Selena Pepic 1:11:17
They have stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. Well, I love that. I'm trying to like eat healthier. So like, that's, that's very.
John McAllister 1:11:32
You and everybody else? No, I'm not doing that. I think I’ll get the fried chicken sandwich at my golf club. Alright, so there's one condition of the being on the show. We have to we have to agree to do one of the contests at Cue Bids.
Selena Pepic 1:11:58
We can do many I do a lot of those. Okay. Is it a contest? You choose a partner and I choose a partner or?
John McAllister 1:12:06
No, no, no mean you as we're we have to. We're gonna bid bid some hands together.
Selena Pepic 1:12:11
Yes, we bid somehow. All right. And then you also have your partner against me and Jovana.
John McAllister 1:12:16
Okay. All right, deal.
Selena Pepic 1:12:19
Are you as addicted as I am?
John McAllister 1:12:21
To bridge or Cue Bids or what?
Selena Pepic 1:12:24
Cue Bids?
John McAllister 1:12:27
I mean, it's very useful but not like, you're lapping me on that.
Selena Pepic 1:12:36
Oh, we'll see about that sometime.
John McAllister 1:12:40
But don't think just because I'm not using it all the time that we're going to be, you know, a lay down in the bidding contest.
Selena Pepic 1:12:48
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, by me. I'll be like if you're using or not.
John McAllister 1:13:00
All right. All right. So anyway, I'll be in touch. Thank you so much. We'll publish it hopefully, at the end of next week.
Selena Pepic 1:13:10
Thank you very much. Thanks. All right. Thank you. Have a nice meal.
John McAllister 1:13:17
Bye. Have a nice night.