Ep. 101: Christina Lund Madsen – Bridge’s Master Mixer

[00:00:00] I remember my ex-husband, who was actually a very good bridge player, he used to tell me something, he used to say that I was never scared. I think I still am one of the bravest, sometimes maybe even reckless in my youth, bridge players that he'd ever met. A lot of people are always worried about what might go wrong and I'm more, ooh, this might work. I'm not scared and I think that also means that I'm difficult to play against.

[00:00:33] I am delighted to have on my podcast today the one and only Christina Lund Madsen. I mean, you have been somebody that has been on my mind as a guest for this show for a long time.

[00:00:50] And I finally asked you recently, I had the pleasure of playing with you in the European Open where you won your third gold medal in the mixed to go alongside your mixed world championship medal.

[00:01:08] I think one of the nicest things that I've ever said to you, and this is true, was that I wanted to get married so that I could have a wedding and have like people like you meet my friends from Uganda, for example.

[00:01:25] And finally, I owe you a debt of gratitude or perhaps like a complaint because it's, I've spent a lot of money playing on the, in these bridge tournaments, but I played in my first world championship because of you. So in 2014, it was late 2013. So I first met you at the Atlanta and ABC in the summer of 2013. I was like, who's this blonde?

[00:01:53] And so you emailed me sometime after the fall and ABC that year. And you said that you and Dennis build a. Who's also fellow Dane. You're both Danish for those that don't. How could anybody not know who you and Dennis build are? And you emailed me and you said, we're looking to get hired for the world championships for the mix in China next year.

[00:02:20] And I was like, yeah, let's do it. And so you got me, you set me up with Migri, who was my partner for a couple of years because I didn't have a mix partner. But anyway, it's a pleasure to introduce my great friend, Christina Lund Madsen. Thank you so much, John. And I have to say, I've been thinking about the whole Sanya thing also and our whole little, you know, our friendship.

[00:02:43] The way that you just described it, it's exactly the same things that have been running through my mind because, I mean, the championship that I played with you was one of the few I didn't win. So I guess I owe you something, don't I? It was very rare. And I also do remember when you said, you actually said it in this beautiful way, you said, you know, I want to have a wedding so I can invite you.

[00:03:12] And that was maybe one of the biggest compliments of my life. It's very cute that you remember that. And it's an honor to be here. I was slightly getting slightly offended you hadn't asked me before. I mean, there is candidly, there is like a little bit. I definitely have some ego around this podcast. And so I definitely was like, I mean, absolutely. Christina knows that she'd be a great guest. And I'm just like not ready to ask her yet.

[00:03:41] I'm just not. I'm just not ready to ask. You needed to practice first, right? Until I was. Until I was. Yeah. This I like. So did you prepare? Did you prepare any stories for us or? Well, no. I mean, as you know, I don't lack stories, but I sort of imagined that you would ask me some slightly embarrassing questions and I would give you even more embarrassing answers.

[00:04:14] Well, I did reach out to some of your friends, some of your Danish friends and some of your world champion teammates and partner. And so I do have, I do have some things that we can start with. Um, so I reached out to five people. I heard back from three of them. So that's interesting.

[00:04:42] Um, guess who did not get back to me? Dennis. No, come on. Dennis got back to me. Uh, bus. Correct. And who else didn't get back to me? If you reached out to five. No short would have gotten back to you, I think. No, no, no.

[00:05:11] So short, short and bus didn't get back to you. Short and bus. No way. I mean, I did send it on Facebook messenger. So, you know, maybe that's like that case. Then that explains it. None of them are. Yeah. I could have told you that. I'm sure that they would have loved to roast me though. I'm very happy that they didn't respond. Um, I did hear back from Simon device though.

[00:05:36] And he, he, he may be made up for, uh, he may be made up for, uh, for the short and past not getting back to me. Okay. Here's what Simon said. Here's a, so Simon gave me four possible questions. Um, but the third question is the funniest rumors have it that you found love recently on behalf of the many desperate male fans. Could you please confirm that you are still on the market?

[00:06:06] Um, do you want to, do you want me to respond to this? Or we can just laugh at the question. Yeah. Um, yeah. I have a story about Simon. So, um, we've been friends and, and also teammates, uh, as you know, for, um, for some years now and, and friends even longer. And, you know, we've been through lots of adventures together.

[00:06:33] And then I saw that his daughters, his twin daughters, teenage twin daughters were going to Madeira. And then I asked Simon, I sent him a text on WhatsApp and I said, am I allowed to talk to them? And then he said, yes, you're allowed to talk to them. You can do anything, but you cannot take them skinny dipping. Okay.

[00:07:00] Anyway, but he is, he is a great, great friend and great fun. Okay. What else did he say? Or did you tell you? He was just for the, for those who don't know you as well as I do, or, um, so Simon was your teammate when you won the world championship in 2022, the mixed world championship. Correct. And also when we won a world bronze medal in 2018 in Orlando, actually, also that's when we started with this team. Oh, yeah. Who was the rest of the team in Orlando? Yeah. The same team. It actually happened.

[00:07:30] There was a firm team. Yeah, it was, uh, the same team. So we were at the, the, the, the, um, short, I had, uh, played, uh, on with Barbara before, and now I'd introduced her to the short. And then it started a little bit as a joke because, uh, short, I think he wanted to torment Bas. So we made some joke about, we should make a mixed team where I played with Bas and short, he played with Barbara.

[00:07:54] And, uh, and, uh, and then we started joking about this and, uh, he took it better than we expected, which was a little bit disappointing. So he was actually in on the idea. And then we said, Oh yeah. And we should also have Simon on the team. So we said, Oh yeah. Then you could play with Daniela. We said, so we had this idea of this amazing mixed team. And then Simon didn't really know that it was a joke. So he immediately went and texted Daniela and not one of us had even talked to Barbara about this at this point.

[00:08:23] So it started as a joke, but, uh, it very, very soon became a very much reality. And playing on this team with such great friends has been one of the biggest pleasures of my life, really. So the sponsor of the team is an American woman named Barbara firm. And you guys, uh, so the, the original team with Daniela and Simon, you all won the world championship, mixed world championship in 2022.

[00:08:50] And then you had a new pair, Andrea Mano and Ida Gronkvist replaced Simon and Daniela. Yes. And short played with Barbara and you played with Bas, uh, this year in Poland and you won the mixed, uh, Europeans. Yes. That was our first time winning the mixed with this team, but, uh, our third medal with Barbara. Yes, exactly. With Barbara firm. Bas and I, we also did win the European championships with a different team back in 2019.

[00:09:20] So, uh, and you wanted a third time in 2015 and, uh, in Tromso, which you said on your, which on your website says is your favorite, uh, is your favorite win. It is. It is. And maybe that has a little bit to do with the fact that I haven't updated my website since, uh, 2017. So when you came to Atlanta in 2013, was that your first at ABC?

[00:09:51] Yeah. So I will tell you, this is a longer story, but I think I want to sort of give you the background because it's actually also a little bit how I got into bridge or into professional bridge and full-time pro-ing and all this. So what happened was that, uh, I was probably a somewhat talented and aspiring, you know, rising star, uh, when I was, uh, in my twenties.

[00:10:14] And then I, uh, got married and had children, um, which sort of delayed my bridge career. And, uh, then I got very happily divorced, uh, in 2012. No, actually it was the beginning of 2013, but we agreed to get divorced in 2012. Um, and then after getting divorced, it's like you get divorced. I was so young that I still had a full life ahead of me.

[00:10:40] I was like 33 and my kids were small, but it was like starting all over. And I thought, what do I want to do with my life? I want to do something that makes me happy. What makes me happy? Playing bridge makes me happy. So basically I decided to play more bridge. So then I started pursuing that. And, um, I had won some Nordic championship. I mean, I had done fairly well.

[00:11:09] I was on the national women's team, but I didn't have enough contacts to go abroad at this point. So I just went on my own and, uh, people helped me. And actually Atlanta 2013 was the first time I got my first professional deal. Um, and since then it went rather quickly. Uh, then I also got, you know, the following national, I went for a short time and then I couldn't go to all of them. I didn't have enough holiday.

[00:11:35] And then you were actually also one of the first ones who hired me to play on a team in one of these championships. Um, I mean, I know that it was Dennis and I, and you know, we were young, we were fun. We were, you know, we wanted to go play and we didn't really care very much about the money, to be honest. You know, I remember it was like, Ooh, let's just go. Yeah. Exactly. It was a good deal. And we did quite well. I mean, we were four handed and I think that we actually did quite well.

[00:12:02] Um, I always want to do better, but I think we really did. And also, you know, what went great with you and Mikri and you were partners for a long time. So it was successful for everyone. Um, anyway, but then I started going to more and more nationals.

[00:12:16] And what happened was in 2014, in the beginning, already the spring of 2014, out of nowhere, I won the open Swiss, um, on a team where I was added actually two minutes after the game had started. I turned down a few hundred dollars to plan a different team to play for free because it was a very good team. It was with Roy and Sabina and their two German teammates, uh, Smirnov and Pikarek.

[00:12:45] And, uh, then I played on this team and I remember that Joseph Pikarek who had to play with me, he was furious. He was furious. He was like, why do I have to play with the groupie? You know, he was, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He thought I was just, you know, some hang around and they needed a fifth because Alex didn't want to play all the time. And so anyway, I got added to this team and then, um, let me just put it this way.

[00:13:12] After we'd played the first two matches together, he wasn't complaining as much anymore. He was rather apologizing because he pulled my redouble, which obviously was right. He was making, and now he pulled it to a contract that couldn't make, but luckily they let him make. So now he made, instead of making five clubs redoubled, he made five hearts doubled. Anyway, pulled my penalty double. He said, yeah, I wasn't sure. And I was like, well, I did have three other opportunities to bid something else, you know? So what do you think?

[00:13:41] Anyway, it doesn't matter, but we had a great time and, um, we ended up winning the event. And I know that on my website, I said that Trump suit was like the biggest moment of my bridge career, but it was actually winning this tournament because it was an open tournament and it was out of nowhere. I was at a last minute and we were leading basically the entire time.

[00:14:05] Um, but what tainted it and what happened was that some years later, as you know, and most people in the bridge world know, uh, then Pikorek and Smirnov, they, um, confessed to cheating. So they broke my heart. They ruined that moment, that singular moment. And since then, um, what I want is I want to win a strong open event.

[00:14:31] I mean, these mixed events are very strong, very high level, but I want to win, uh, open teams, open pairs, some open event to prove that I can do it without people cheating. Also, I'm not really sure that they were cheating when they played on a team with us because it didn't bloody look like it. It definitely wasn't cheating when it played with me. I mean, pulling my doubles and redoubles is usually not the way forward anyway.

[00:15:01] So, but that's, uh, how I started. Yeah. And after this win, obviously you get a lot of attention and I also, I'm sort of funny in the bar and I had a lot of friends from my junior days. Uh, I was a junior of the same generation as John Craney, I can Joe Woolrich and Johnny Hurt, you know, a lot of those Americans and us and short and a lot of, you know, the Swedes, you know, a lot of very strong bridge players, um, came from around the time that I was a junior.

[00:15:29] I was only a junior for a short while because sadly I didn't start playing early enough, but still. Yeah. Hmm. We completely forgot the other questions from Simon, but I mean, now I sort of sad. He has two questions that were, um, like, do you have an explanation for why your performance and mixed events have been so great also compared to your performance in women's open field? Is your style specifically suited for this type of bridge or is it random or is it something else? Oh, yeah.

[00:15:57] And Dennis, that he asked that and, and Dennis sort of said something to the effect of like, uh, asked about, you know, your mixed success. I don't remember what he said exactly. Hmm. Okay. So would you like me to respond to what Simon's question? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, I mean, it's a good question. First of all, he also said compared to women's and open events, right?

[00:16:24] Compared to your performance in women's slash open fields. Slash open fields. Exactly. So first of all, I haven't been playing just to get that out of the way. I haven't been playing women's bridge in a long, long time, unless I've played with a student who was paying me, for example, at the women's pairs at the nationals or similar events. I haven't played on the national team. And I don't really play women's events. And it's not that I am against them.

[00:16:54] I actually have made up my mind about this. This is a completely different discussion. Um, but I pursue deliberately to play in the toughest fields when I have the opportunity. Yeah. So I sometimes say that I play women's for money and not for love, but that's not true because also like the women's world teams, I mean, would maybe like to play like the high level competitions.

[00:17:17] But, um, if I have to choose, for example, now when the upcoming world championships in Hanning, I'm not playing for Denmark on any team. And I would rather play the world trans nationals, the open teams than playing in the women's. And first of all, um, he asks about my mixed success. Uh, I mean, I think that there are honestly, I, I really cannot explain why I've won so much in the mix because it does, it is quite extraordinary.

[00:17:46] And I, and the only thing I can say is before I answer the part about my bridge style, the only thing I can say is that what I've seemed to discover it is that the further we get in the tournament, the better I seem to play. So I think that maybe I'm the kind of player who performs better under pressure. And I think that's not all can say the same.

[00:18:12] I think people have been there many times, they're used to the pressure and they don't even feel nervous anymore, but sometimes it also doesn't hurt. I think, I mean, I need to be at least a little bit, you know, edgy, excited. You know, I need to feel my adrenaline pumping to perform my best. It keeps my mind clear. But of course, if your nerves are making you scared of making the right decisions, then it doesn't work. I remember my ex-husband, uh, who was actually a very good bridge player.

[00:18:42] He used to tell me something, used to say that I was never scared. Um, I think I still am one of the, you know, bravest, sometimes maybe even reckless in my youth bridge players that he'd ever met. Um, a lot of people are always worried about what might go wrong and I'm more, ooh, this might work. I'm not scared. And I think that also means that I'm difficult to play against.

[00:19:09] And now I actually move on to answering the question about the success, both at mixed events, but also how I do at open fields. Um, I think that sadly, a lot of women who are very solid and good card players who do very, very well in women's events, they don't have any success in open events and they're not dangerous to play against.

[00:19:29] And today in the open field, the field is so strong and there are so many good players, um, that it's not enough just to be a solid card player. You need an edge. Um, you know, some have a very good assistant that makes it hard for the opponents. Bas and I have that in the mixed, I think. And also some people are very unpredictable. And I think I'm one of them.

[00:19:55] Once I actually, I remember many years ago, Johan Upmark and I, we talked about this and he said, yeah, what you do works in both. Like it also works in the open because for example, there was a hand at the recent Europeans where I underlet my King Doubleton of spades on the lead against the six heart contract. And that was the only chance for declarer to go wrong. And I have a reputation for doing things like that.

[00:20:24] And people know this. Also, I have a reputation for redoubling since back since my youth. Also, some people say, yeah, Christina redoubles. You should never run. Really not true. So the thing is, I have honestly, I have psyched the redouble here and there, but most of the time when I redouble the contract to make. But they never really know. They're never sure.

[00:20:48] So I think that being unpredictable and I think also I have a lot of imagination. I'm very creative. And I think that is what makes me able to compete in the open, compete with men. I've never, I've, and this is also because it annoys me a little bit because bridge is my living at which I'm not complaining about.

[00:21:12] I love it, but I usually have to take the money and I get paid more playing mixed and women's events, for example, at the nationals. Yeah. But I really want to play, pursue playing more open events. But also because now I don't play for fun anymore because I play for money. It's hard for me to come back and win that open event. I mean, I need to play him to win him, if you know what I mean.

[00:21:37] So, but I have sometimes thought to myself, okay, you know, at some point when I feel I can afford it, I want to play on a strong team and just to win. And the few times I've done it, like the first couple of times I came to the nationals, I had never played the open Swiss on the last weekend without leading it. And it was me with three other random women, three non-regular partnerships. That was the one after the one we won.

[00:22:04] Then we were in Las Vegas and I played on the team with Migri and Crystal Welland. And I played with Veronique Bessis from France, who's the most conservative, solid French player you will ever meet. And she had never played Bridge My Way, but it was perfect. She sat there, she had her bits and I was free to do whatever I wanted. It was wonderful. So I was like, what?

[00:22:27] And I think that at some point if I really just, you know, said, oh, fuck the money and tried to go for it, I think I could compete with the most men. And I think that they would not be comfortable playing against me. Well, maybe Bess now because he knows me so well, but still. I remember one hand specifically from the open qualifying where you open third seat, you open three spades, favorable.

[00:22:58] Maybe you don't want me to include this. What's sort of funny? I think my hand was king third, five little, three little, two little. So we're favorable third seat, you open three spades. Now, uh, Jerome Rumble bids three, no Trump. And I'm thinking maybe I should bid four spades. I don't know. And eventually I was like, okay, I'll pass whatever, you know? So it goes pass from my left.

[00:23:27] And now you double. And I'm just like, oh my God, what the hell is this? What is this? And I gave the hand to my ex-girlfriend bridge playing ex-girlfriend, Lily, Jasmine. And I gave it to her as a bidding problem. And she didn't even want to think about it. She's like, this is such torture. Like, I don't even want to, I don't even want to consider the, the, uh, but, uh, I actually,

[00:23:56] I was actually had lunch the other day with my friend that I was telling you about the money manager and he played bridge in his youth some, so he knows the game a little bit. And so I was trying to explain the problem to him. And he's like, well, I think she has. And I was so worried that he was going to figure out what you had. Cause what you had was, you had two aces and the queen of spades. Six. Yeah. Queen 10, 9, 6. But I also had a void. Queen 10, 9, 6 is right. And I had like, I had more than just two aces.

[00:24:26] Well, first of all, I had a void. So I was sure things were splitting badly. I had also, I actually had an opening hand with lots of entries. Right. I could see that they had no, uh, running suit and all these. Yeah, exactly. So. Right. Yeah. So, uh, that would be an example of you. And the thing is. We had 800. We had 800. Exactly. Unfortunately. We had 800. We didn't get them because unfortunately your partner didn't realize that I had really struck gold.

[00:24:56] Also, the thing was that I know the Rumbos, right? And you remember, I told you that also, even before we played against them, that they bid on everything and you'd already seen that. Right. So I was so sure that if I put three spades at this vulnerability, I mean, because normally you just open one spade. Right. But I knew that they might get overboard and I was sort of right. Um, I mean, they could make five of a minor, but that's not where they were playing. So I was right until I fucked it up. But you know what? That also happens sometimes.

[00:25:24] This was maybe the most painful, uh, but also because we had a quite good start against them. It was a sort of funny. Like when we got to five diamonds, you had a zero. Oh, right. Most people were three diamonds or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you guessed the play correctly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, you know, that was the thing. One of the things I noticed playing with you. So we played together for a week in Poland and open.

[00:25:49] And one of the things that I appreciated about you was how easily you got over the bad results. Hmm. Even this hand, you know, uh, you just got over it so quickly and I, yeah, I just marveled at, uh, how easy it was for you. Well, obviously it's not that easy because I'm really, really annoyed at myself, but I I cannot change it.

[00:26:17] And I've practiced for years trying to get over my bad boards because I used to always make a disaster afterwards out of pure frustration. Mm-hmm. And now I think there are two things to it. First of all, because I really, really, really practiced forgiving myself. Mm-hmm. It can still haunt me for months after. But right there, right then at the table, I leave it be. And then later on in the evening, you know, I get back to my hotel room, turn off the lights.

[00:26:47] Then I pull out my whip from my suitcase and then I start. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, or I just go flush my head in the toilet after I peed. Um, you know, you have, people have different ways of punishing themselves. Right. But I just know it doesn't serve me any good at the table. Also, I think that with time, now my self-confidence is much bigger.

[00:27:10] So, I know that I screwed up or whatever, but then I wait for my chance to get it back for them to screw up. It doesn't always happen, but you know what? It happens a lot of the time. Mm-hmm. So, you remember that entire match, for example, was really like, you know, like score. Okay. Miss, you know, own goal. You know, it was a boof, boof. It's like, um, sometimes it's when I play bridge, it's a little bit like being on a battlefield

[00:27:39] depending on who I'm playing with and who I'm playing against. Um, when I play with bus driver, for example, also maybe part of the mixed success thing, we're always very aggressive and we know our system. Well, we sort of do, but compared to other, because now we've played a good time, which made some changes and I'm still not anyway. Um, but, um, compared to most other mixed partnerships, we are now, you know, quite in

[00:28:05] sync and we have the same aggressive style and we just make life hard on the opponents all the time. So with bus, when I play with bus, I know that even though we miss a completely cold grand for no reason whatsoever, I know because we did do that in the semifinals, you know what the next two boards, we got those zips back and more first because we bid an aggressive three, no Trump. And then because Bazzi made an aggressive two diamonds multi opening and I followed up by a very aggressive bid. And then.

[00:28:36] Yeah. So it doesn't serve me any good to worry about the bad boards. And you could also, because we talked about it, you also saw that you had one bad board. You got so frustrated. Then you made another one after. Right. And that was only because it was right at the end of the pair tournament. Remember? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:23] Yeah. So you made it your best performance. Do you and Bazzi play weak, no Trump? We do. We play a three different no Trump ranges. We play 10 to 13 favorable. We play 11, 11 is optional, 12 to 14 when nobody's vulnerable. And when we are vulnerable, then we always play 15, 17. We used to always play weak there, but Bazzi thought was time I grew up.

[00:29:52] He says, Christina, there really is no reason to risk going for five or 800 for no reason whatsoever. Why don't we just play a strongman? Anyway, so we changed. Yeah. I listened to your sorry partner interview and you talked about what a great player Bass is. Hmm. What makes him so good? Actually, I think it's because he's at least at the table.

[00:30:21] He is a very, very good partner. He really doesn't say a thing. It doesn't matter how much I screw up. He doesn't say a thing. It also is extremely hard to get a compliment from him. He doesn't say anything at the table. It's always just next board. And also I feel or I know that he respects me. He trusts me 100%.

[00:30:47] And especially in the mixed, often I've noticed that there are so many players, guys, sorry, but it's usually men who are mixing with their female partners, especially if you have a very, very good female partner. It's just bad. You miss slams. You do all these things because they bid no trump. Bass has not once tried to, uh, get, play the contract from his side. Well, without good reason.

[00:31:17] He's not once not trusted me. And sometimes, I mean, if he trusts me and he's wrong because I did forget the system, then obviously he gets really annoyed at me afterwards, but he won't say a thing at the table. So, of course, he's a great card player and we are very much in sync in terms of the style we have. So we know when we're pushing and you know, so that also makes a difference. I think he loves to play the funny system that we play.

[00:31:46] We have some very unusual methods. He loves that. But I think mainly, uh, the reason that he and I perform so well together are because we really love playing with each other. He might not admit it, but he actually has admitted it. What, uh, what did he say after the king and one lead that beat the, that, uh, declare went down in the slam now? Yeah. See, this is actually one of the rare occasions.

[00:32:11] I think I can count five times and we've played together since 2018 where Bassi actually set something at the table. And this was one of the great lead. He said, and I was almost embarrassed because they, the opponents go down in a vulnerable. Yeah. And he never compliments me at the table and he doesn't even have to because we all know. Right. But he, I think he was just so excited that he actually couldn't because normally he doesn't say that.

[00:32:38] The other times if he said something, then he like mumbles like, no, no, no. Good defense. Like he's packing up the cards here. He just couldn't help it. Great. Um, but, uh, which match was that in? It was the semi-final and we played against a Novosadzki who is Bassi's teammate. And he played with a Polish girl, Danuta Kasmucha, who I like a lot. And, um, it was also the team where Simon and Daniela now play on.

[00:33:05] And that was sort of playing against our former teammates. We didn't actually play against them. And we ended up playing against the others the whole time. I don't know if it was because somebody had a preference because, you know, when you've been teammates and friends for such a long time, maybe you actually prefer not to. I don't know because I'm not part of the lineup. I have no clue. Um, but we ended up playing the others, but that was, um, I mean, obviously it's very painful for, for the opponents to have such a board thrown at their face.

[00:33:35] Uh, yeah, I agree. Yeah, exactly. And, uh, but I think what it also does is that Novosadzki also had misguessed something earlier because I made sort of a delayed aggressive over, you know, you do things and then at other times, then we do really do have our bits. It makes it hard for them. And the thing is also, I've sensed that when Bassi and I, when we first actually, sometimes

[00:34:02] my self-confidence falters for every time I play, like when we were playing this team, it was such a great team and we're playing Simon and Daniela. And I was thinking, are we going to win this match? I mean, are we really bad? Are we better than there? How are we, what are we going to, you know, all these insecurities surface. Right. And I'm often when I've played well, I'm thinking, oh, I can never play that well again. I don't know why. Um, always thinking I'll never have the, you know, if I've done something brilliant or like, imagine,

[00:34:31] imagine a little, I'm thinking, oh, with the world, but that chance never comes up again. But you know what? That's not true. There's always an ace to under lead or a slam to bid that other people might, you know, not see, you know, it's, there are always opportunities, but what's important is actually not to haunt them. There are some bridge players who are actually quite good, but they keep looking to make the bulletin. If you know what I mean, this is always wrong.

[00:34:59] You know, the people who constantly want to like find boards where they might get in the bulletin, they never win anything. You know, most of the time in bridge, you just have to avoid disasters. Avoid zeros. I say when we play match points, but avoid disasters if you play a team game and Bas and I, we just, we really don't have disasters. Even if we have a misunderstanding, maybe it means that we ended up in the wrong contract

[00:35:27] and then we're down whatever, something a few more vulnerable than would have been in another contract. At least we didn't get doubled or something. I mean, it's, we had people go for 2,000 against us. It was a very strange auction, but I mean, we don't do that. We don't do that. What was your closest match in the event? See, that was actually sort of funny because I think it was the third knockout match. So I guess it must've been the quarter finals, I think. Yeah.

[00:35:58] And we were leading by so much. We were leading by 50 or something before the last set. We played Hovtaniska and Gontor Vist from Norway, who's, they're actually both good friends of mine. And Bas had made these two amazing three no-trump contracts where they both got squeezed from the king in one heart. And you had to guess, you know, to go down to the stiff king of hearts. And we had all these great hands and I bid and made these amazing six clubs that we knew

[00:36:26] for sure, for sure was like win 13 or whatever it was. And so I was like, okay, this is over. This is over and let's, you know, let's just get it over with play quickly. And then things started happening, but I was still sure. For example, I doubled them in a pot score, which was down, but I revoked, which made no difference. I was just one trick ahead. I had to follow to a spade. And on the next spade, I had to pitch a card that didn't matter. But because of the revoke and the rules, then of course, now it was a minus 470.

[00:36:56] Oh, great. So we just, you know, things kept happening. They did catch us because of their system, but we couldn't really do anything about it. It was sort of normal. But now it started rolling out, but I was like, oh, we had such a big lead. It can't be a problem. Then we also, so we came out, we had one by, I don't know, 10, 11, something. But then we also got the time penalty. So now we ended up winning by six or whatever it was. I'm not sure.

[00:37:23] And now the opponents tried to, well, there were some rulings from an earlier segment that they tried appealing and they didn't. Yeah. They were rejected by the tournament directors, but it didn't matter. It was just, the whole point was that a match where we were up by so much, we almost like slipped through our hands. Yeah. What we didn't know is that at the other table, they had played great against our teammates, completely started. They had also made two, three, no trunk contracts.

[00:37:53] And so, and then they, you know, other things had happened, obviously. So that was an unexpected, difficult match all of a sudden. Yeah. And you know, it's sometimes it's funny because I don't like being in the lead by too much. Because I'm afraid, I know it sounds terrible, but I'm afraid that I get sloppy. And when we won the world championships in the final, the segment I played the worst was

[00:38:19] the last because it's a weird feeling winning your first world championship. It's something that I had dreamt about on so many runs around my little lake here. I'd imagine the moment where I came out with bus and our teammates would stand there, wait, and we would cheer and we would hug and the champagne and winning with these great friends. And I've dreamt about it. I've dreamt about it before I was on this team.

[00:38:45] I've dreamt about it since I started playing bridge, you know, when I was maybe 10 or 12 years old, but I also did dream about being on the Danish soccer team. I mean, the men's team. So, I mean, I had a lot of dreams when I was a child. I also wanted to be Tarzan or Jane when I got a little bit older, you know, but this becoming a world champion. And then after the second last segment, we came out to compare and Simon was there.

[00:39:14] And he said to me and Bas, this is how I like you or something like that, because our opponents had had a very rough set and yeah, we hadn't given them any discount. So, we were up by so much before the last set that I was sure that Simon and Daniela and Bas and I, we were never ever going to drop 56 imps or whatever it was in 14 boards or 16, I don't know, 16 I think.

[00:39:43] I was so sure we were never going to drop it. I mean, I did try dropping some though to make it to people I actually thought was a little bit exciting. But, Miss Treiber who was my screen mate, he also at some point, he said, let's just play quickly now, you know, let's just get it over it. After, yeah, some redoubled making contract plus one, yes. What's the difference between, you've won three of these European mix, what's the difference between winning a world championship and a European or is there one?

[00:40:13] To be completely honest, I think in terms of the level this year at this Europeans also, yeah, maybe, I think this year, I think that the level was probably more or less the same as when we won the world championships. So, the only difference is in the title and what others think that it means.

[00:40:39] For me, winning this European championship was just as hard as winning the world championships. Well, not just as hard, but that's only because the world championships, we almost didn't qualify. We had some issues there. So, I think the prestige, but bridge-wise, the level is actually not very much different. No. Not between these two, the last two I played.

[00:41:09] But like when you talk in terms of laymen though, I'm sure like when you talk to people that don't play bridge. Yeah. You know, the fact that you've won a world championship, I mean, three European championships is amazing. But the fact that you've won a world championship, I would imagine, has a huge gravity to it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. When I've won the European championships, I think that my local newspaper wrote something about it.

[00:41:33] I don't even remember if anyone, you know, when I won the world championships, I was a national TV. And that was really a big deal. It's just different. I mean, bridge players, a lot of us know that it's often sort of the same people who are at the European and the world championships. But to others, a world champion sounds wow. Like when I'm at a bar, my friend, she loves to play the game. Oh, guess what Christina does for a living.

[00:42:02] And then, you know, in the beginning, the game can be sort of funny. The best part is, of course, when they have to guess and I give them options, right? So it's like, okay, I have a PhD and, you know, I'm trying to cure cancer, this, you know, thyroid cancer. I'll be a little bit more specific. Yeah. With radiotherapy or I work for the government and I can't tell you more, you know, sorry about that. You know, basically I tell them I'm a secret agent. That's also one of my favorites.

[00:42:30] Or I say I'm a stewardess. Most of the men always go for that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or a professional bridge player. And what else are among my favorites? Well, I have occasionally said unemployed stripper, which shockingly some also believe. So bridge players, they don't guess that very often. Anyway, so that's like a party trick.

[00:42:57] But when people hear about the world championship, they're always like shocked. And also because they, I also think it's a little bit people's prejudice. They're like, but bridge players, aren't they old? And you know how they end. Yeah. Yeah, that is true. The funny blonde in the bar is usually not the one you think is a bridge world champion. I really do get it. I mean, I don't blame them. I would think the same. What about with Dennis Builder?

[00:43:27] You know, your great friend, our great friend, great Danish player. Do you ever give him grief that I guess he's won a junior world championship? Oh, yeah, yeah. Two. One was an individual. Yeah. If I ever... So you can't really give him grief about not having won a world championship? No. But also because Dennis, he's won some of the most prestigious national events. No, not at all. I have told him though that I owe him a world championship.

[00:43:56] Because when we played in Sanya, we played the pairs. I had some distracting information after, I think, the first two sessions or maybe the first session of the final. And Dennis and I, we were doing great. And Dennis played great. And like he said, it doesn't matter what I do. They screw up against me every time. Like he really... And I remember Zia, he came and told us, Christina, I think you and Dennis will win. But when you do, don't scream too loud.

[00:44:25] And I said, Zia, normally you want me to scream loudly or something like that. You always have to be that way with Zia, right? Yeah. And then I played so badly that I started crying and we were only... I don't even remember how we ended up ninth, sixth. I don't care. And it wasn't important. And they interviewed us afterwards. And I said, if Dennis had played with my mother, he would have won. And I almost started crying. And Dennis was like, aw.

[00:44:55] And I loved playing with Dennis. But the difference between Dennis and Bas as partners, because they're both great players and Dennis played my system and all that, and Dennis is a fantastic player. The difference is that Dennis, he likes me so much that when I'm screwed up, he just felt sorry for me. Bas, he thinks it's unacceptable. Christina, why don't you pass? If pass is an option, you pass.

[00:45:25] And then I say, but Bas wasn't an option for me on this hand, you know? So Bas, he has actually quite high expectations of me. And he doesn't really... When he knows that I know better, he doesn't really accept if I screw up something, you know, where I should know better. Yeah. And it sort of makes me play better. I think that he is less forgiving than Dennis. Does it make sense?

[00:45:54] Maybe, yeah. Yeah. For sure. I don't know. I mean, I think... Yeah. Those are two great players to have as your partner, you know? Yeah. But I haven't played with Dennis, I think, sadly, since maybe 2017 or something, like for a long, long time. I really wish we could do it again sometime. I mean, he would be my choice if Bas, for some reason, couldn't play at the tournament. But I think that's very... Probably not going to happen anytime soon. But who knows? How do you get clients?

[00:46:24] Like in the US, for example, you've been playing recently with this woman. I think her name is... Is it Laura? Mm-hmm. And I don't think I'd ever seen her before you started playing with her. Or like, how does somebody like that... Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question. How does anyone get clients? I think that's a very... Because for people who are not professional bridge players, and I assume that you have many non-professionals listening to a podcast.

[00:46:50] So, usually it's the results promote you and other people like word of mouth promote you. Yeah. And either the clients find you, or you are being recommended, or you find the clients. And I think for me, most of the people I've played with are people that I have gotten to

[00:47:16] know on my own and develop friendships, partnerships, whatever. I've usually... I'm not one who has ever had like, you know, then people help each other out. And for some reason, I always had to look after myself. And then I had, you know, some results to recommend me and that was great.

[00:47:38] But I think that if you are also a nice person, and your partners are generally happy playing with you, they will recommend you maybe tell their friends about it. And in the case with Laura, it was actually a common friend who doesn't really... None of them are actually people who normally hire bridge professionals. But she's a very, very strong player, but it can be really hard to find a player at your own

[00:48:06] level if you're a strong player, but not quite expert. Also, especially in the US who's not already a pro and who can teach her more. She was at the point where none of her peers could teach her what she needed to be taught. Her weaknesses in the bidding, her card play is excellent. She needed a teacher to reach the next level. And I think that because people can always say, you know, for example, if you're an expert bridge player

[00:48:33] in your own right, why do you need or why do you pay other people to play? People often ask this question. Well, first of all, it's because if you can afford it, then if you want top teammates, you have to pay them because they're all professionals. You really just can't. That's one of the issues. Yeah. Like somebody like Marty Fleischer, for example, who captains all these great teams. He's a great bridge player, but he can't get the teammates he wants unless he pays them because he has to. Yeah.

[00:49:02] That's just the way the business is these days. I mean, you know that yourself. There's also a certain level that you can reach on your own. Like you, for example, I know that you've been through a massive development, right? And would you have come there if you, you know, kept playing with somebody like could you and somebody at your own level, you know, have developed like that, that rapidly? I think that's hard. You always need to learn from somebody who's better than yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I think so.

[00:49:32] So, yeah. But it's the same in tennis, golf. It's the same within all sports. And sometimes, for example, in Denmark, people think it's wrong and it's cheating if people hire, you know, a bridge pro to play with them at the club. But often, most of all, you hire a teacher. Some people just care about the results. That's true. People hire bridge pros for three reasons. One, to win. Two, because they want to learn.

[00:50:00] Or three, because they want to be entertained. Because some people are in it for the social aspect. And it's very different what people, people have different goals. I sometimes try to ask, I ask, what is more important to you? Is it winning? Do we want to learn? Do we want to, what's your goal with bridge? So, getting clients, sometimes I'm very bad with names and faces. Sometimes I've met random people at the bar who were like, oh, and then they were interested in playing with me.

[00:50:29] I write down their name and number on a napkin and I lose the napkin. So, I'm not always great at that. But I've come to a point where I have quite a lot of, I feel loyal and unloyal to them, like regular clients. And that means that I feel more secure because being a bridge pro is a very insecure living. And especially for me living in Denmark, because we don't have a professional environment here.

[00:50:58] So, most of the time I go to the States to play. So, I need to know that I still have my people, even though I don't play with them in the club every day. If I lived in the U.S., I would have no worries. But as long as I have my children here in Denmark and they live at home, then I stay here. So, you think you could see yourself living in the U.S. at some point? I think especially the winter half of the year.

[00:51:27] Oh, it's bad in Denmark? Yeah, I'm not good with the weather. I mean, when I was in Florida, I was quite a lot in the U.S. this winter. And I could see myself, I visited my friend Sandra Rimstedt, I could see myself, you know, chilling in Florida with her at the pool, you know, doing some mommy yoga, saying whatever they do. Actually, I'd probably more, I'd probably do something a little more.

[00:51:56] I don't, yoga is not my thing. I need some action, whatever I do. Maybe I'd start playing golf like everyone else, but I need some more action thing. But maybe there's a soccer club, who knows, or basketball or something. But I could see myself doing that living in Florida and the winter part. And also, so I would save the traveling going back and forth. Yeah. Because a lot of people ask me if I move to the U.S. And we'll see. It depends on a lot of things. Depends on what my bridge life looks like.

[00:52:25] But I have thought about it. It's the land of opportunities, but I'm going to wait three and a half years, though. Do your boys play? You've got two boys. They're 15 and 17. Do they play any bridge? I wish. No. I have tried. I didn't push them enough when they were young. It was more important for me that they did physical sports. And then when they had the right age to be sort of pushed, COVID happened.

[00:52:55] And there weren't like a lot of social opportunities for them to play. And then they were too much teenagers because they think that, you know, bridge, that's what mom does. Bridge is for girls, which is really funny because nobody else thinks bridge is for girls. But in my boy's mind, that bridge is mommy's weird occupation. It's not something they're interested in. I've tried to explain there are girls also there. You know, you can go travel the world.

[00:53:24] Worst part is that they both love mind games. And I wish that my ex had been more. He also really didn't encourage them a lot. I think that if we had lived together still, both my children would have played bridge for years and probably be on the junior team and all that because they really do like playing cards. We would have played together as a family, but we're only three. But they have now. I was just on holiday with them in Croatia.

[00:53:49] They kicked my behind thoroughly in the game that I think is called assholes and kings in English or something like that. Anyway, it's this card game. And I mean, in the beginning, you know, I was, oh, you know, I didn't want to. I wanted to give them a chance. I should not have done that because now they're too good and too smart. So there's no more discount from mama. Yeah. Now I was losing constantly.

[00:54:17] And, you know, it's funny because it really does bother me, even though I'm sort of happy my kids are winning then losing all the time. Really? It's funny to think that you're a mom just because I don't know that side of you at all. Yeah. And I think of my own mother. And, uh, yeah, it actually makes me think better of my own mother that you're, that you're a mom. I'm not sure what that means. No, it's, it's, it's a, it's a compliment. It's a compliment.

[00:54:46] It's a compliment because I mean, my mom, you know, it just as a child, your mother, I mean, particularly my mother, uh, was so infallible in a lot of ways. Yeah. And, uh, you know, in truth, that's not really true. So, uh, it's just amusing to think of like, did you try playing? We played, uh, we played Oh Hell in, uh, Poland. Did you try playing Oh Hell with them? Yeah. And then, uh, you know what?

[00:55:13] I sort of tried, you know, I suggested, Oh, we played this great game, but then they were like, Oh, let's just play the other one. And I was like, but I am going to try to introduce it again because I said, yeah, it's very much like what we already played, but then they wanted to play the other game. And the thing is that I was just so happy that they didn't object to playing cards at all, you know, that they didn't just want to be on their phone. So I just jumped at it. And as soon as we started playing this game and if they really think it's fun, so then, yeah.

[00:55:41] But the part about being a mother, it's also funny you bring it up because I remember one that was this guy bridge player who I've known for years. And he's like, suddenly he says a few years back, he's like, you have children? I was like, of course I have children. I mean, what do you mean? I have big children. He was just shocked. And I also do feel sometimes that I'm living a double life that I have like a secret identity. Sometimes I don't know if my secret identity is me as a bridge player and me as a mom,

[00:56:11] though. I don't know which is which, but when I'm traveling with bridge, you know that I'm a very social person and I love to have fun and I love to tell funny stories at the bar and very outgoing and lively. And I also don't talk about my kids because I'm very present where I am. Right. And then when I'm on the plane back, especially when I get on the plane, I can't wait to see my children. But now they're so old, you know, they don't need their mother the same way.

[00:56:40] So now I also have the liberty to go and play as much bridge as I like. You know, I could in principle do three regionals in a row, which I could never do in the past. I would have to go back and forth or something to play. But being a mother is something that I remember when I was a teenager, my father, he said he could imagine that I would never have kids because he could see me being too, you know, focused on

[00:57:09] myself and my dreams, you know, to and to not actually have children. I remember it made a huge, huge impact on me. I was like, really? Is that in the way? And I always wanted to have children, but combining children with bridge pro life is not very easy. I mean, you need a very supportive ex in my case. I think if we were still married, I would never have pursued my bridge career.

[00:57:39] It was something that happened gradually. And also, you know, taking this leap of faith when you go all in as a full time pro, which I did right when COVID hit. And then suddenly for three months you make zero and I have two children to support. I mean, living the bridge pro life, sometimes my friends, you know, they're making fun that, oh, I'm retired. And I send the pictures from here I am at a pool, you know, which I usually play bridge all the time.

[00:58:06] But if I really am at a pool, I make sure that they all see it. And, you know, oh, here I am on business class, you know, I sent them selfies or something. Yeah. But it really isn't. I mean, it's, it's a job and sometimes it's a tough job and, you know, I'm away a lot. So, um, the funniest thing is when, uh, for example, at, uh, at tournaments now it's not

[00:58:29] as much anymore, but so, so often people, they ask me, so what do you do with your kids? When you play bridge? Sometimes people ask me, are they with your mom? And I'm like, with my mom, they're with their dad. What do you mean? What do you do with your kids? Oh, their dad. He's with their, oh, wow. That's such, he must be an amazing father. And I remember Larry, he was asked me, you know, this question in front of Adam Grosak, his partner.

[00:58:58] And he asked me, so what do you do with your kids when you're at a tournament? And you know, when you've had this question so many times, at some point you're like, I just want to know, do you also ask the male bridge prowess this? And then Larry, he says, of course not. And Adam said, be careful, Larry, be careful. And he says, no, they're guys. And I'm like, yes, yes, yes. And it's just, as a woman, it's just different.

[00:59:27] And I really think that one of the reasons that there aren't as many women in high, you know, really among the top 100 players in the world, because there really aren't. I mean, men are better at bridge than women, but I think there are many reasons for this. One of them, and I think maybe, I think there are two main reasons. One of them is that women are simply not irresponsible enough. So women, they actually get an education.

[00:59:57] You know, right now there are so many juniors running around and they're like around 20 or something. Who are, no, no, no, forget about college right now. You know, I'm so smoking hot. I can get all these bridge deals. Yeah. But what about in 20 years when there are no pro bridge left or, or everyone else is better than you are. You're not the hot new stuff, you know? So there are so many bridge players and they're bridge stars, you know, Versace, Helgemo.

[01:00:23] They'd probably be poker bums at the local casino if they weren't amazing bridge players, you know? And what would they have done? Would they have found another career? A lot of them, I don't think so because it's also in our personality to have sort of a gambling nature. So, and I just think that most women I know, they have an education and then they've had children, which meant that they took a break from bridge and bridge is so hard.

[01:00:49] And it's, you know, there's this saying about 10,000 hours to be really good at something. I always laugh when people say that because I say bridge, drive 50,000 hours to become that good at bridge. You really need to invest a lot of time. And if you take just a few years break, I mean, I sort of did that, but my development actually almost happened after. So, um, it's just a setback, you know, you'd need to be in shape. You need to be stay sharp all the time.

[01:01:18] So, you know, being a mother, taking time off, you know, and then coming back, it's, and the guys, yeah, they have kids. So what? They bring them and they bring the wife along to look after them or they just go anyway. And you know what? The thing is also my kids, they've never ever thought it was strange or suffered or, or, I mean, they've been just great with their dad. And actually I think they have a, such a close relationship with him.

[01:01:47] And I think that if you don't give the father the responsibility, you know, it's important. It's important. Parents are equal to their children. I think that's how it should be. But I'm also from Scandinavia. Does your ex still play bridge? I've never, I've never met him. He, uh, plays and wins the Danish bridge golf championship every year. Oh, he's a good golfer. Yeah. Well, it's not an official championship, but yeah, he plays that every year. He loves golf.

[01:02:16] Um, he also had a career. So, um, he did try, you know, try one, you know, to go to the nationals, try it as luck as a bridge professional. Uh, he decided he loved his work and his children more. That wasn't the life for him hanging out at the bar and all that now. So, uh, he has got a career, made money, plays golf, you know? Yeah. I think he still likes bridge, uh, but just not nearly enough. He is a world junior champion.

[01:02:46] Did you meet him through bridge? Of course. Of course. I remember my first junior camp when I was like, God, I was 21, no 22. Sorry. And I was so cool. And I was thinking, Oh God, what am I going to do with all these geeks? I mean, for 10 days in Poland. Oh God. Oh, you know? And I saw them there, these 16 year olds with braces. And they were like, Oh, just wait to cool for this. And then this guy, and I had a boyfriend at home.

[01:03:14] And this guy, Danish bridge player, he said to me, you're going to end up with a bridge guy. And I said, I'm never going to end up with a bridge player. And he said, yeah, bridge chicks. They always end up with bridge players. And I said, not me. Well, famous last words, famous last words. Married one, had kids with one, had affairs with others after I got divorced, you know, whatever romances.

[01:03:41] I don't, and not a lot of the non bridge playing, even my current boyfriend that I, I'm afraid. I mean, the thing is, I'm not really letting down the fans because for most of them, it's just a fantasy anyway. Right. So, and so, but I do actually have a boyfriend. So even the boyfriend I have now, even though bridge is not his profession, he's still a bridge player. So, um, yeah. Haven't had a boyfriend who's not a bridge player since I said those last famous words.

[01:04:12] Um, so how did Laura, I mean, you, you sort of alluded to it, but how did she actually hire you? Like you, you met her at the tournament and she's like, no, uh, a friend he introduced, he, uh, suggested me and she contacted me. We played a little bit online and, uh, it was a very much online love at first sight. She was great. I think she thought I was great. She was used to men who were not as good as herself yelling at her.

[01:04:41] Uh, and, um, so, and then we started, we played live. That was also great. And, uh, since then we play as much as we can. She's actually one of the ones I play the most with. We travel a lot also and do fun stuff. Like I've introduced her to tournaments abroad this year. We're going to, in September, we're going to Pula for the rich festival there, Pula in Croatia. And in October, we're going to Cali for the South American championships. So we do a lot of fun things and she's great.

[01:05:10] I mean, she, even though I've tried to sometimes suggest she could play with somebody else, she doesn't want to, she only wants to play with me. Uh, and I think also she did say at some point, you know what? You're a woman in a man's world. I mean, why would I play with them if I can play with you? And also, you know, sort of support a woman who, and also she says, you know what? I played with other guys. They're not as good as you are.

[01:05:38] You know, she is, she's a treasure. You hate it when she says that. You hate it when she says that. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And I try to say, oh no, no, no. All the guys are much better. No, that's not true. When I play with her, especially because I told her she used to wear a hat. I told her, you know what? Maybe you should start wearing the hat again. People will totally underestimate you. Because when they see two girls playing with me, even the guys who know me, because most of the guys in the bridge world, I have to give them credit for that.

[01:06:05] They do have a lot of respect for me, but they also know that I, most of the time I play with students, right? So if they say me playing with somebody that they don't know, they just assume it's somebody who's screw up. One of my favorite parts is when I sit there and I get to see Laura sit there, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, and later she throws him in and plays him. It's just so funny. So funny. They're like, huh? What happened?

[01:06:35] That's funny. Yeah. Anyway. What event did you play in when you started playing online with her? Like an ACBL speedball or something? Yeah, yeah. We just played those ACBL AT board games. Yeah. Whatever that, wasn't that what we did during COVID? Yeah. But, well, we did also play one of the OCPs, one of the other, you know, the online tournaments. Yeah. She likes, what I really love about her is that she likes to play up. She likes to play high level competition. Yeah. And I do too.

[01:07:01] But I will say that it's only fun if you really are competitive. There are some of my students, I would definitely prefer to play women's pairs with them events where, because sometimes they just, you know, if you just get banged on the head, it's not as much fun. But I love to play in the toughest possible fields. And Laura does too, which is also great.

[01:07:25] We had a laugh because you wrote an article at the World Championships in Marrakesh about Zia. And I don't remember if I texted you or what, but I thought, I was like, I thought it was a great article, you know, really captured kind of the way that Zia carries himself. You know, he's hilarious.

[01:07:47] Like he is 80 years old, but he, he's just got a youthfulness to him, which is, you know, really, and he's just so fun. But I think you responded that the only person that didn't like the article was Zia. Exactly. It's true. It was really funny.

[01:08:08] He said, um, also, first of all, uh, for the ones who haven't read the article, um, I like to do these very personal interviews and we'd never talk about rich. We talk about them, you know, their life stories. We talk about all the deep stuff. I want to portray them as human beings. And it's very hard to get below Zia's surface. So I tried very hard, but he wouldn't really let me in. He would say something like, Christina, stop asking about my debt, father. Nobody wants to read about that.

[01:08:37] Yeah, they do, but okay. Or he would say, Christina, stop typing. You're writing 46 pages, you know, something like that. Like he, so, and what I did was because he wouldn't tell me, I showed how he is. By including some of these things in the article. So people could see his mannerisms. You know, I wanted people who read the article to see him, if they close their eyes, to just see him and exactly as he is. So even his kids loved it.

[01:09:06] But Zia's first reaction was, Christina, you make me sound like a prima donna always ordering everyone else around. I was like, well, I think I did a pretty good job. He is something. And we'll, we'll link to that in our show notes too. So for the people who haven't seen it. Oh yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He is something else. I mean, he, yeah, he's hysterical.

[01:09:35] I think that's the one person where I've been around with my mother, where I've been around another man. Because she's been married to my stepdad for almost 40 years. We've been together for 40 years where I've been like, mom, what's going on here? Relax. He really is something. I mean, he is. I actually think I had dinner with you. I'm sure I had dinner with you the time that he gave me like, for me, my all time quote, Zia quote.

[01:10:04] Um, you and I had dinner at this restaurant at some, it's many, many nationals ago. And Zia was at another table with another group over there. And suddenly he shouts to me across the restaurant. He says, Christina, when are we going to play that bridge tournament together? And I say, but Zia, you say I'm too old to play with. And he says, yes, you're too old to play with. But for bridge, you're perfect.

[01:10:34] It's really funny. And the thing is that Zia, he used to play with all these young blondes, young talents. And I was sort of jealous. And I was like, why does he never ask me? So when you finally sort of ask me in his Zia way, you know, Christina, we should play a tournament together. And you always beat me at the table, which is by the way, very, very, very true. I mean, Jesus, he's the one I have the best. Recently, he and Zach kicked my ass, but that was mostly Zach. I mean, otherwise, other than that, I crush him every time.

[01:11:00] And I love it because he is like, in terms of creativity and stuff, I think there are not a lot of females. I don't know any female bridge player actually, who was as creative as I am. And Zia is probably among the guys. He's probably one of the most creative ones also. So it's sort of, we have a little bit the same profile. I also know it would be complete disaster if we played with each other. But I just want to do it just to say I've done it.

[01:11:28] But now when you ask me, I said, no, no, no. I have to get in line behind Helgemo and Versace and, you know, the others. Yeah. So we still haven't played. I did tell him, you know, you're going to be ducked soon. When are we going to play? You guys have in Denmark, you've got a lot of promising juniors right now, it seems like.

[01:11:54] And you've also got like a Danish junior Instagram, Danish bridge junior Instagram that has a lot of fun stuff on it too. Are you, like you set me up. I played with Daniel Tivland for a couple of days in Memphis. You set me up with that. How involved are you with like all of that stuff? Yeah. I'm actually not involved with anything in Denmark anymore, bridge wise. What I do is I try to support them when we go abroad.

[01:12:23] And I wouldn't say that we have a lot, but we have some and not all countries do. So I'm just thrilled. We have two girls who are going to be on Danish TV tomorrow talking about the world championships. For example, we have more than two girls, but we have, they've now been to nationals. Another one has two. And then we have some of the, we have two young boys who are very, very promising. I'm actually going to play on a team with them now at the world trans nationals in Hanning coming up here.

[01:12:52] And what I do for them is I try to promote them at the nationals and they do very well. Especially also I try to help them with attitude and professionalism, all these things that also nobody taught me when I came over there. I like that they asked me for advice. It's also important for me that I can vouch for them.

[01:13:14] So I don't, a lot of people always come and ask me if they look for partners, if they look for work, if they look for teammates, people in the bridge world. I mean, it's like everybody comes to me because they feel that I'm very well connected. And the thing is also, I don't know if I am, but I really love to help.

[01:13:34] And it is true that I have been extremely successful hooking people up, but I actually also, it takes a lot of effort and a lot of time when somebody texts me 20 minutes before game time and I have to meet my own partner and blah, blah, blah. And still I go out of my way to do it. My friends sometimes say, you know, Christina, you should charge for this, but I'm like, nah, I'm thinking karma is going to come back. Karma is coming back. The only problem is that sometimes people wrongly assume that I'm always booked for everything because I can always connect people.

[01:14:03] And that is not always the case. It's true in a lot of cases, but not always. But the thing is also, even though I am booked, it would be nice to at least be asked, right? Because I have 537 people who owe me favors and nobody asks me. Come on. You know, it's just nice to be asked. So, yeah. So, but I try to help these juniors as much as I can. But I also try to help juniors from other countries.

[01:14:33] Like I have these South American boys, for example, that I, you know, I know that they just want to go play and I try as much as I can. I try as much as I can. For the youth, I think we should go out of our way. I do tell all of them to get an education though.

[01:14:51] I would be remiss if I didn't mention that I spoke to Sina, your fellow Dane, and she told me that you were, that you've been talking about writing a book, Secrets of the Female Bridge Pro. What's the status of that? Yeah. This is my, you know, you have life goals, life projects. This is something that I need to do. I was actually, yeah, I can't reveal that much.

[01:15:19] But this is something that I have to do. And should I? I hope not. But who knows how long we're here for. But if I die three years from now and I've not written a book, I will not die as happy as I would otherwise. I have another book, actually, that's sort of my practice book that I've written in Danish. That's a novel, has nothing to do with bridge. So right now the status is, and that I'm quite far with that.

[01:15:47] I also don't know how Secrets of a Female Bridge Pro is going to end. I'm still unclear. But it is a project of mine and I keep getting inspiration every time I'm at a tournament. And the main thing is that it's going to be something that not only bridge players would read. And that's what my goal is.

[01:16:14] If I could have like very modest life goals, it would be to write this very hugely successful book and say a bridge at the same time. That's my very modest life goal. Yeah. I mean, I will say in terms of life goals, the thing is, I did a marathon and I ran a world championship. Sorry. I ran a world championship. That's not, I ran a marathon and I won a world championship.

[01:16:42] So, you know, you need to have new goals all the time, right? Yeah. What was your time in the marathon? Hmm. Four and a half hours. And I'm not saying which amount of the time I spent sitting down. So, wait, the time on the race would say four and a half hours or that doesn't include, you ran for four and a half hours and you sat down more? No, that was including the toilet breaks. Yeah.

[01:17:09] I was sort of in a good shape, but I, uh, uh, I was the only one who was slightly hung over because, yeah. Jesus. Yeah, I know. That was really stupid. I'm not very proud of it. Actually, the reason I had to run a marathon is because I made a bet with John Kreniak. At that time, he wasn't running nearly as much as he does now. Not at all. And he wanted to beat my time on half a marathon. And the thing about, you know, miles and kilometers, we couldn't really figure it out.

[01:17:36] And then he, we made a bet $500 bet. And then the deal was that he had to beat my time on half a marathon within like, I think it was a year and a half or something. If he couldn't do that, he'd have to run a full marathon. And then he would be like in the lead of the bet. So in order to scratch the bet, I had to run a marathon too. We wouldn't compete about, you know, over the time on the full marathon, but it was just to scratch the bet. I had to also run a marathon. Right.

[01:18:05] Um, so basically, um, he texted me a couple of months later. This was in the summer. And of course, after some alcohol, he texted me, I'm never going to beat your time on half a marathon. Obviously he has that many years after, but at this point he thought he couldn't. So he said, so I have to run a full marathon. It's like, okay, sure.

[01:18:29] And then a couple of months later in February, only six months after our bet or something, he ran his first marathon. I was like, $500 is a lot of money to me. So I was like, I got to run a marathon. And this was February and the Copenhagen marathon is in May. And I was like, okay, I'll just register. And then I have to do it. Also, if it's like half a year, I have to practice for half a year. I'm going to get demotivated. So I was like three months.

[01:18:59] I can do that. I can do that. And I was in, you know, at the time I was sort of in always sort of good enough shape that I could run half a marathon to save my life. I'm not anymore, but don't tell anyone. But even though you can't tell, maybe I'm getting a little bit older. So I don't know, not really willing to accept it yet. Will you share this video with your children? Yes, I would.

[01:19:29] However, I'm quite sure my children, they would not want to watch it because they think I'm embarrassing. I'm old. I'm boring. And mom, we don't care about bridge. You know, the one time when I did win the world championships, they also really didn't care until some of their classmates had heard about it from their parents. Then they were like, oh yeah. Oh yeah. My mom's a world champion.

[01:19:57] Then they started bragging only because other people heard it. Yeah. They're both boys. Are they, are they good friends with each other? Yeah, they are. They are. They don't know that they are. And also they've now come to the stage where younger brothers starting to beat older brother. Like they did arm wrestling. I'm probably not. They would kill me. He would kill me if I said this, you know, in public, but younger brother one, both left and right. So now we have issues. Yeah.

[01:20:27] So now older brother, he got him gym membership. Yeah. They're, they're, they're, I think they're very close to each other. If I could recommend anyone, uh, to have children, I'd say get them very quickly after you, you know, right. You know, after each other. So they will always have each other and have children with somebody you want to have as your ex afterwards. That's like a very good piece of advice. Trust me.

[01:20:57] Yeah. And one of them goes to boarding school. Is it co-ed or is it all boys? Uh, no. It's like three quarters girls or something. It's gymnastics. He does parkour. So he's one of the cool ones. And then the rest are just girls who do run around and do like jump on trampoline girls on trampolines. How, how far is it from, uh, from where you are? An hour, which is far in Denmark.

[01:21:26] Are you driving to, uh, Herning? Uh, it's so funny when you ask me a question like this, I'm like, now we're just chatting, right? That's not going to be in the interview. No, I mean, why not? Who cares whether I'm driving? I'm going to drive to Herning. It's actually a good question. I'm even wondering if I should, I'll probably just go in my own car. It doesn't, it usually doesn't drive. You have a car. I have a car. And let me put it this way. A lot of people are also surprised. I have a driver's license. They're like, you're a mom. What? You can drive.

[01:21:55] Even my boyfriend, he was like, you have a car? Like exactly. Are you on a license? Yes. Well, it's sort of a car. It's a Citroen C1, like the smallest car you can have. Yeah. My car goes into most American cars. You know, it fits inside. Yeah. And I don't use it very much, but it gets the job done. We bike here in Denmark.

[01:22:21] Is there anything that we haven't covered that you want to share? Well, then it should be, I don't know, have we talked too much about, you know, bridge tournaments and boring bridge stuff? Maybe we should have something more like a little bit more personal. I have set how I started to play bridge, you know, like after my divorce, because I think that's interesting. Um, let me see.

[01:22:49] Um, I had one that I was going to, that I've been wanting to do a bridge superlatives episode. Yeah. Like in my yearbook, for example, and, and this is this, my, in my middle school yearbook, they had superlatives. And I got the award for, uh, in sixth grade, I was new to the school. So they didn't really know I got, Oh, I got the award for most outrageous.

[01:23:16] And the person I think of when I think of bridge superlatives is Kevin Bathurst, because I want to like, uh, I want to make fun of him as like, you know, most outgoing or friendliest. And like Kevin Bathurst is a person that I think of for that. Well, I mean, he is friendly. He's just, uh, uh, introvert. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:23:45] So by the way, but you said that Simon hadn't, you know, that his third question was the funniest that he had four questions for me. So why don't we look at those? And also if Dennis had more questions, that maybe that'll spice it up. The one thing that I, so, okay. So his, his second question is, do you have a specific bridge? This is Simon. Do you have a specific bridge convention approach that you can call your own? That was a question.

[01:24:15] Yeah, exactly. Well, I can answer it. And I think I sort of know what he's looking for. I think he's maybe it's my two openings. However, it was actually originally my ex-husband who said, is this a crazy idea? And I was like, yes, I love it. Do it. So he started doing it. I'd started doing it with my partner. He quickly abandoned it. And I kept on doing it with my partner and developed it with her and then with Bas.

[01:24:41] And then I played it with, now I played every time I had the chance, but you know what? That's boring because it's about bridge. So fuck it. No. Okay. Okay. So Dennis asked you, what is your nickname in Denmark? I know what he's looking for. And you know what? I'm going to say snack. It means something else in Danish, but let's just say snack. Okay.

[01:25:08] It means in Danish, snack means that I talk a lot. Snack. You know, it means chat basically. Yeah. So they both kind of asked a similar question. Uh, Dennis asked, do you see yourself more as a male or female bridge player at the table? If that's not too sexist for the podcast. That's funny.

[01:25:36] Simon, Simon asked, what is your take on women in bridge? Should there be women only or mixed events at all? Or should we strive for an ecosystem? There's no need for this. And we all play together in one big, happy category. Okay. These are actually two, uh, see, this is a little bit interesting because I actually do have opinions about this. So let me start with the Dennis's question. It's funny that he asks if I see myself more as a man at the bridge table.

[01:26:06] I mean, I remember once, uh, this guy, this man, he said to me, you bit like a man. Uh, I think it was less than a Moyles actually. 11 years ago or something. And I was slightly young and arrogant and no, it's more, more years than that. And many, many years ago. And I said, I bit better than most men. No, no, I bit better than men or something like that. Mm. Whatever. Um, which is totally not true.

[01:26:35] I'm actually not that self-confident at all. But, um, I think that as we talked about earlier, I think that, uh, I don't play bridge as a woman. I'm not saying that I'm a man. I don't believe in that. Uh, but I don't play as the other women do. You're not trans? No. Oh yeah. Maybe that's the thing.

[01:27:00] Well, I do sometimes tell guys that, you know, if they get a little too, uh, pushy at the bar, especially the younger ones, I ask them if it's, you know, if it's okay with them that my name used to be Christian, you know, before my surgery. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Anyway, so no, but I understand Dennis's question. And again, I think it's probably my aggressiveness.

[01:27:26] But what is really interesting is he should also have asked, how about outside the bridge table? Because I have some traits. There is a guy bridge player, Greg Kinsey, who once said to me, you're not a girl. You're like 95% guy because I don't understand. You know, if people, I like to communicate directly. I don't, the reading between the lines things I don't get. I hate shopping. I, uh, love to compete with men.

[01:27:55] I'm wrestling. I do all these things. The only thing is, is if I say something like, oh, I'll just have a salad for lunch. He's like, okay, now you're down to 90%. You know? So I think in general, I am, sometimes my life would have been easier if I'd been a guy. I think I would have been more accepted for who I am.

[01:28:19] It's like, I think sometimes that people think I'm a little too for a woman. Um, I've had a lot of, you know, my life hasn't been as easy as many think. I haven't been dancing through life. I had some very rough times, especially as a teenager. I've always been sort of a controversial personality. Uh, and also, yeah, women sometimes don't like me.

[01:28:49] It's become a lot better with age. Some men are intimidated by me. Uh, luckily for me, most realize that everything comes from a good place. And I just want us all to be one big happy group. And I love it when everyone has fun together, but I do attract a lot of attention. And I think as a woman, sometimes I'm not supposed to do that.

[01:29:11] Um, and I, in Danish, we have this expression that I don't try to cover my lights. You know, you don't try to, yeah. I'm definitely not trying to dim my lights. All right. Last question. I have to go. Okay. Um. Um, was it the Simon thing? Or did you think of something else? Okay. This is a John question. Okay. What's your best karaoke song? I think I have to go with like a prayer. Yeah.

[01:29:46] Oh, by the way, really quick question. Sorry. Quick answer to the Simon thing. Okay. So the thing about women and bridge, women, like I said earlier, they're too responsible to become complete bridge bums and just dedicate all their time to bridge. And sometimes they're not competitive enough. They're happy when they, sometimes I think it's so wrong that they settle for just being a good female bridge player, like top female bridge player.

[01:30:14] No scratch the female, you know, actually some of my young junior girls were at this thing for national teams. And they said something about, they talked about how the girls, you know, they were happy to have the juniors there because then the girls who could be in the women's team in the future. And I said, why should their goal just to be on the women's teams? Why shouldn't it be in the open team? I reminded them of that. Yeah. That's a problem. Then you ask me if there should be these categories.

[01:30:44] First of all, mixed, I have zero issue with that also exists in all other sports. And that makes total sense. Um, women's I think makes sense. And I've thought about why, and that's because otherwise, most bridge tournaments would be so bloody boring because there would be a lot more guys than girls. Yeah. So for social reasons, if not a lot of other reasons, yes, we should keep having women's events.

[01:31:13] But I also think we should keep having women's events and senior events. We need to have as many categories we can to make as many people happy and feel successful as we can. It's the same as having limited events. I just think that we should acknowledge and not be ashamed to say that a women's event is like a limited event. You know, it doesn't hold the same prestige. Don't compare it to open because you can't winning the Venice cup, which is the women's

[01:31:43] world championships compared to the Bermuda ball, which is the open. There is no comparison. Okay. But let's just accept it for what it is. It's just a different category, limited category. For social reasons, it's awesome. Yeah. No, I think mix is super fun. Hmm. Yeah. Like I played with Migri because I needed a mix partner. I play with Marianne because I had needed a mix partner.

[01:32:09] You know, it's, uh, and they both become good friends. So yeah, exactly. Yeah. Everyone like forces you to, you know, expand your partnerships. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. It's been my pleasure, John. It was a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wish I got a chance to tell some, uh, some, you know, embarrassing stories

[01:32:36] about you, but since this is about me, we'll probably you'd appreciate it if I didn't. It's dangerous interviewing somebody who knows you that well, darling. Okay. I haven't stopped recording yet. Okay. Thank you so much for having me on. It was a pleasure.