Ep. 76: Simon de Wijs – Bridge's Vault Keeps all Secrets

[00:00:02] Hi, my name is John McAllister. Welcome to the Setting Trick podcast where we get inside the minds of some of the world's greatest

[00:00:11] Bridge players. If you're looking for a way to engage with bridge away from the table, then the Setting Trick is here for you

[00:00:19] Today my guest is Simon Device from the Netherlands

[00:00:24] Simon has a

[00:00:26] great bridge resume including wins in the Bermuda Bowl

[00:00:30] the mixed world championships, the Olympiad

[00:00:35] multiple European championships and is a mainstay on the Dutch national team

[00:00:41] Which is always one of the favorites in the world championships

[00:00:45] At the recent Louisville NABC Simon showed up with his twin

[00:00:50] 19 year old

[00:00:52] super cute

[00:00:54] bridge playing

[00:00:55] budding expert daughters

[00:00:58] Find out how his relationship with them has changed since they got the bridge bug and by the way

[00:01:05] They made the Dutch mixed team for the upcoming European championships

[00:01:10] Recently at the North American Bridge championships Simon has been playing on the Goodman team

[00:01:16] Which is one of the hottest teams in the world

[00:01:19] Having made it to the semi-finals of the last two Vanderbilt's and the last Salloway

[00:01:25] Simon's nickname is the vault

[00:01:30] Find out just how much I can get out of him from that contract negotiation

[00:01:36] with his sponsor Andy Goodman and how he's gone from

[00:01:41] having a full-time job

[00:01:43] To a part-time job to being a full-time bridge pro

[00:01:47] Please enjoy my conversation with Simon Device

[00:01:51] I'm here with my friend Simon device

[00:01:56] and

[00:01:57] We were last together in March at the Louisville

[00:02:02] North American Bridge championships and the combination of

[00:02:07] You being there with your twin daughters for the first time who I got to play against and

[00:02:15] The fact that you told me you it so you won the Jacoby

[00:02:21] Swiss at the at the Louisville N.A.B.C. And that was your first North American title

[00:02:28] Which was very surprising to me because when I look at your resume

[00:02:34] Like going through your resume on the World Bridge Federation website. It's it's full of wins

[00:02:43] prestigious wins like the Bermudable

[00:02:45] the Olympiad

[00:02:47] multiple European transnational

[00:02:50] Championships I was surprised

[00:02:54] But you were really excited, you know like this was your first time winning an event in North America

[00:02:58] and so ever since then I've been wanting to interview you and

[00:03:02] I finally reached out and here we are. Thanks Simon. Welcome. Thanks for being

[00:03:08] Being with me here. Yeah great to be here and I

[00:03:13] Everything you say is true. I was very happy with my

[00:03:16] first win and the fact that it was the first that

[00:03:20] Maybe a little bit surprised since I'm playing for 20 years already in North America and I'm

[00:03:26] Having some success elsewhere, but somehow we've never got together in the nationals

[00:03:32] so yeah, I was really happy and

[00:03:37] Even though people pointed out to me that winning a two-day Swiss was probably the lowest

[00:03:42] National you could ever win but I didn't feel low to me so I

[00:03:48] Celebrate it. I have to say yeah

[00:03:51] You even I even drank a beer in your aunt in honor of your win, which is is a rarity for me

[00:03:58] So I think I know that I was happy for you. You know, you're very likable person and

[00:04:07] Yeah

[00:04:09] Thanks, thanks. Yeah, so you're saying you're not a big beer drinker

[00:04:13] I'm not a big beer drinker. No

[00:04:16] my youth I would drink a lot of beers, but

[00:04:21] As as an adult, you know middle-aged firmly in middle age

[00:04:25] I it doesn't be both. It doesn't feel good. It doesn't it doesn't make me feel very good

[00:04:32] So I've kind of I've gone away from the beer drinking

[00:04:37] Yeah, it's I have to say that last night's at nationals

[00:04:41] I still drink my my beer, but otherwise

[00:04:46] I've

[00:04:47] Gone down my alcohol consumption as well. Yeah, I

[00:04:51] Mean it said that I mentioned that it was a karaoke like people get together for karaoke

[00:04:55] I don't know if you mentioned it, but yeah, it was a karaoke thing and that's that's that's the thing we

[00:05:01] We typically do at the last night of nationals. So I was also

[00:05:06] excited to bring my daughters and I registered them to sing a song with

[00:05:11] Somehow time ran out so they never had to really get up there and sing

[00:05:17] What did what did your girls think about coming to the US to play for the

[00:05:22] but they're very excited they're doing a gap year and

[00:05:25] They finished high school last year and they are going to do university next year and

[00:05:30] In that gap year, they they try to travel and play bridge

[00:05:34] And well the trip like this was a perfect combination of the two objectives

[00:05:39] And they they really called the buck as they as you can say they

[00:05:46] Have been playing bridge since they were like 12, but that was over now and then like two and a half three years ago

[00:05:53] They they really accelerated their

[00:05:56] their bridge play

[00:05:58] so now they

[00:06:00] Now they've actually had some success and they play in

[00:06:04] internationally in junior teams, so they're gonna play internationally the mixed team and

[00:06:08] Yeah, I'm gonna travel to Denmark in a month and they will play the European Championships and they'll be playing there

[00:06:15] simultaneously in the mixed event so that that's also very weird to have them

[00:06:20] Join me for those kind of events. I'm not used to get so they're playing on the like the open mix team

[00:06:27] yeah, yeah, the open miss team they qualified in the Netherlands by

[00:06:32] by winning the trials

[00:06:35] Yeah, so that's amazing was a surprise although I'm not allowed to say that it was a big surprise because

[00:06:43] And the rest of the meeting them

[00:06:47] But between you and me just between you and me it was a huge surprise

[00:06:53] They beat some teams who I thought would be better but yeah

[00:06:58] From that point on where I started also like training them a lot. Yeah, so we do a lot of bidding practice

[00:07:04] We talk about bridge a lot, but we have a house rule once we are to dinner table

[00:07:09] Yeah, there's a maximum of one bridge related question because otherwise my

[00:07:17] My wife and my son they go crazy

[00:07:20] After one question say okay, that's it

[00:07:24] Is there any parameter?

[00:07:26] Is there any parameters on what what qualifies as like a question in terms of like can it be as technical as they

[00:07:32] Want it to be or yeah?

[00:07:34] Yeah, well some questions you can you can hardly deny them being rich questions like what would you bid with the Queen Jack for?

[00:07:42] But other questions then we obviously discussed

[00:07:47] Debated parameters when we're talking about a trip. Yeah, we're not talking about bridge. We're talking about plane trip

[00:07:52] We're talking about the hotel. It's not it's not bridge

[00:07:55] So but we yeah, it's it's a big

[00:07:59] It's a big thing between three of us now. So that's that's great also I

[00:08:05] Was having dinner at the recent team trials in the US with Gavin Wolpert and

[00:08:11] Aaron Silverstein and Chris will I can was with us too, but he doesn't have any children and

[00:08:17] and

[00:08:18] Aaron's

[00:08:20] Daughter Avery has really gotten the bug recently to and so I was talking

[00:08:28] To Aaron about something about Avery how she's really gotten into it and Gavin said

[00:08:35] Yeah, that's the dream

[00:08:36] You know speaking about like having it what having one of his children

[00:08:41] Get into it like that. Yeah, it's I can tell you from first-hand experience

[00:08:47] It's it's amazing when one of your children shares a passion with you. That's I don't think bridge is special in that sense

[00:08:54] I mean it can be any other passion as well, but for me I bridge my passion and

[00:08:59] Yeah for let's say the first 15 to 18 years of their life

[00:09:04] all they've they've known about bridge, but they never thought it was that interesting and

[00:09:09] now they've entered the bridge scene and

[00:09:13] Suddenly they're also like very surprised at that a lot of people want to talk to me and

[00:09:18] I want to discuss

[00:09:23] Because back at home I have zero respect

[00:09:29] So this whole bridge scene creates some new founders and the respect for their father, so that's

[00:09:34] Big benefit. No, but it's great to be able to talk about things you you like doing and to see them having fun

[00:09:41] Yeah

[00:09:42] And I've tried in the past to encourage them to play bridge, but you know when when they

[00:09:49] Don't really want to and you kind of semi-forsaken upon them then, you know, then you know, it's not gonna work

[00:09:56] Right. So that's I quit doing that and now now there. It's all them, right? I'm not pushing them at all

[00:10:02] so they're just

[00:10:04] maniacs at sorts of points in time by

[00:10:08] using one of those bidding apps like QBits or bit 72 and

[00:10:11] firing hands at me

[00:10:16] You mentioned you've also got a wife and a son what's and they don't like it when you talk about bridge at the

[00:10:26] By why I met her through bridge, but

[00:10:30] That was a long time ago and she

[00:10:32] She never really played competitively. So

[00:10:37] Socially she plays and my son. Yeah, I took one look at the game and decided this was not for him. So

[00:10:45] he's into other things like acting and

[00:10:50] Singing and stuff like that. So it's a totally different. I don't know where he gets that

[00:10:54] It's not for me. Let's you see you see me sing. It's not my my pellet

[00:11:00] Wait, I don't know if I have seen you sing. What is I did sing a song at the karaoke thing which it's

[00:11:06] What song

[00:11:08] Time of my life

[00:11:11] Yeah, but it's better to forget those things I might have left I didn't stay there

[00:11:18] Halfway through the song you left

[00:11:26] So we're talking about Christina London Madsen his like the karaoke at night is her personal showcase

[00:11:32] Yeah, she's actually she gave me your email address. That's how

[00:11:38] Okay, I was able to get in touch with you because you're not on social social media as we were talking about before

[00:11:44] Before we started recording. Yeah, no, I quit I quit the socials

[00:11:50] I'm not regretting it. It's not that I live a very secluded life. I still use

[00:11:56] What's up? So maybe that's a social network in its own

[00:11:59] And sometimes you're communicating with 30 people at the same time also, so but now just looking at the pictures of dogs and stuff

[00:12:08] I mean I

[00:12:10] Objectively everybody knows you you can easily not do it, but it's very tough to actually

[00:12:16] You raise those apps. So yeah, I highly recommend it to some people who are

[00:12:21] Thinking about it. So are your girls coming to the summer nationals then?

[00:12:25] Yeah, we're we're all government going to Toronto and they are

[00:12:32] Together with me we're becoming for the whole tournament and then afterwards we're doing a family trip

[00:12:36] So my wife and my son if they also fly to Canada and then we have to do a two-week tour of Canada

[00:12:43] As a family holiday

[00:12:45] Maybe the last truly true family holiday since well, they'll be starting University next year in September and today

[00:12:53] It's likely that they're gonna move out at some point in that year. So that's

[00:12:59] They might make different choices in the future as to what kind of holidays they want to go

[00:13:04] So yeah, we start to come out with a bang

[00:13:08] Olivia Shurston who's been a guest on the podcast before also did a gap year this this

[00:13:15] This past year and she's gone to University in the fall

[00:13:19] also

[00:13:20] Hi

[00:13:21] Did you ever?

[00:13:23] Did you ever make the conscious choice to do a gap year or not?

[00:13:27] No, no, I

[00:13:29] Just was not the thing when I was your in bed actually nobody did it. I

[00:13:34] Was real I went to all all male boarding schools. So I

[00:13:39] Was going to University at the University of Virginia, which is like I

[00:13:44] Mean it was just like the coolest place to be as far so I was ready to get there as soon as possible

[00:13:49] right

[00:13:55] I envy you if you really want to go somewhere then going there is great, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I still live in Charlottesville so

[00:14:05] Okay, so you're still living your dream

[00:14:08] Well, um, I mean I'd like to get a little more resume like you for bridge, you know

[00:14:14] Yeah, okay. Well, there's still time

[00:14:17] If it were any other sport like soccer or something your time would have been up way a long time

[00:14:24] Lucky for you which bridge and we have road champions well into their 60s. So

[00:14:31] I was gonna say your your your Goodman team

[00:14:35] You said you this this mix that you won the Jacobi Swiss and you were playing on a team

[00:14:41] Sponsored by Andy Goodman, right? Yeah, and you guys have been coming close

[00:14:46] Like I think you lost in the semi-finals of the Soloway knockout

[00:14:51] Lost in the semi-finals of the spin gold and the Vanderbilt. Does that sound?

[00:14:56] Does that one right?

[00:14:57] The last I think the last five tournaments or maybe lost six

[00:15:01] Lots we got three semi-final

[00:15:04] Exits. Yeah, so yeah, we did we did

[00:15:08] We did very well and I'm

[00:15:11] I thought we do we would do well, but I didn't think we would do this well. So

[00:15:15] It's also been a very pleasant surprise

[00:15:19] yeah, I play with Andy Goodman and

[00:15:22] Mike Purcell and

[00:15:24] two Italians donati pacario and yeah that team

[00:15:30] gels together really well so

[00:15:32] somehow we

[00:15:35] We have the fortunate coincidence that one pair when one pair is doing poorly the other pair is doing better. I mean

[00:15:44] Maybe partly good team atmosphere and partly it's just a good coincidence, but it happened to

[00:15:51] Make our runs very deep so far. So yeah, happy for happy about that

[00:15:55] But it's not easy, you know those those are the toughest events

[00:15:58] I mean like in the nationals you joke about, you know, you wanted to do Swiss

[00:16:03] Yeah, like those events. I mean I

[00:16:08] Just I got to the quarter finals of the Vanderbilt one time

[00:16:11] We would have played you if we'd won you guys lost to Wolfson who won it

[00:16:17] You know that like that's the real thing, you know, I I compare I'm a golfer and I love golf

[00:16:22] So I compare those to the majors, you know, like those are the yeah, those are the big deal ones, but

[00:16:28] You know at the same time you've won

[00:16:33] The Bermuda bowl, which is kind of like the crown jewel of bridge

[00:16:37] I think you would probably know better than me

[00:16:39] I mean because I've really not played in any of I never played in a Bermuda bowl

[00:16:42] I've never been close to playing in a Bermuda ball. You won it in

[00:16:47] In the Netherlands in

[00:16:49] 2011 that was your first

[00:16:51] first world title

[00:16:54] I think that's a I think most people still consider Bermuda ball to be the

[00:16:59] Main price. I mean there are some other world championships. There's this open real championship where

[00:17:07] The average

[00:17:09] Playing strength of the field is lower, but there are so many more teams that arguably it's tougher to win

[00:17:15] Like percentage-wise, I mean but still

[00:17:19] Apart from that still people consider the mood Bermuda ball to be the most prestigious one and

[00:17:27] That's how I was raised in a sense

[00:17:30] That's when when you play bridge you you

[00:17:34] Typically play teams or match points. Well teams is way more important than match points

[00:17:38] That's that's how I was raised and Bermuda ball is the one and only thing you you should aim to win

[00:17:44] So when we got that win in 2011 all home soil that soil that was

[00:17:49] Obviously an amazing feeling and we've come close to twice after that. We had seconds twice the most painful one

[00:17:56] being like three years ago in Italy losing by two three aims to my

[00:18:01] former

[00:18:02] teammates

[00:18:04] Bus driver should bring so that's that was very painful. I have to admit but yeah

[00:18:11] Bermuda balls have been

[00:18:13] Be very good to us. I didn't realize you lost that one by three amps. Yeah, that's

[00:18:30] There was a hand from 2011

[00:18:33] That I came across

[00:18:35] Where the opponents were in four hearts and you had ace queen?

[00:18:39] Third of diamonds I think

[00:18:41] No, did you play the Queen? Yeah, it was

[00:18:47] Still one of my best hands

[00:18:50] It all came together

[00:18:52] to

[00:18:53] That ace queen small and the third in hands. I played the Queen which is not a spectacularly

[00:19:01] Good play especially since I didn't even envision

[00:19:05] Exactly all the exact all it was just more a matter of principle just to keep flexibility flexibility in the

[00:19:12] Defense and it turned about to be crucial and it wasn't found at the other table. So that yeah, that made for a very nice board. Yeah

[00:19:20] Thanks for reminding me that's better

[00:19:28] Who is sitting in your chair at the other at the other table who the defender I think it was John Hurts

[00:19:36] Sorry John

[00:19:39] Yeah, sorry John. I don't know if he listens. I don't know

[00:19:44] Deny listening

[00:19:47] Will record will put a link to that in the show notes to the to the hand there's a nice article about it

[00:19:54] Yeah, that might be wrong also. Maybe it was his partner, but no it didn't say believe me. I went I went looking for it

[00:20:02] I

[00:20:04] Tried to look up some of these things, you know because I was curious like you know because the team that won in Veldhoven

[00:20:11] You know

[00:20:12] From my standpoint like all three pairs are very strong

[00:20:16] So I was curious kind of how you guys divided up

[00:20:19] But I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't find like who played the last quarter or whatever

[00:20:24] I guess that yeah, that one wasn't so close though. No, you beat them fairly. I mean

[00:20:30] By a decent margin

[00:20:32] Yeah, we won by I think we were leading by 75 going into the last set. It was

[00:20:39] Six sets so even though it was still very dense

[00:20:45] For me personally, but to be fair it was the mattress one before the final set

[00:20:51] yeah

[00:20:53] That's true, but I agree with your analysis. I mean the

[00:20:57] The that was the one time where we had three pairs that were all

[00:21:03] Well, they were not equal in strength, but they were various comparable and

[00:21:09] And our it was definitely the tournament where the our weakest pair was the strongest if you know what I mean

[00:21:14] And normally you go to a tournament with like pair number one pair number two pair number three and in that order and pair number three

[00:21:21] The quality of pair number three that's that's always important

[00:21:26] For the whole team, right? Because if that's very low then that's puts a lot of pressure on pair number one and two who have to play

[00:21:32] More than their fair share. So yeah

[00:21:36] This case

[00:21:38] Not saying who was pair number three, baby

[00:21:39] We were number three, but at least we were we were very close to strength

[00:21:45] Your name by the way is not so easy to look up in the view graph archive

[00:21:49] No, yeah, I typed in Duiz and I had to look up under bulky

[00:21:56] Yeah, that's how I look at that's how what I do also because the fact that my last name is

[00:22:02] spent out in two words has been

[00:22:04] it's been

[00:22:06] pain in the ass for all my life

[00:22:08] at customs and

[00:22:11] These are stuff. It's always the hotels, you know, and they try I cannot find your name

[00:22:18] D or

[00:22:20] I cannot not recommend giving your

[00:22:24] Your kids my last name

[00:22:27] But you gave it to you gave it to Lata and Sarah. Yeah, I did true

[00:22:35] Maybe my ego was too big to not give it to them

[00:22:38] Today so you recently on the sorry partner podcast today listen to that

[00:22:44] they

[00:22:46] Listened to yes, they listen to like 15 minutes because they they were they couldn't be bothered by listening to the

[00:22:53] Full hour

[00:23:01] Whenever I recommend stuff for them to

[00:23:06] I get like these looks

[00:23:10] Looks I get

[00:23:12] I don't know there

[00:23:14] No, they like to decide for themselves what to

[00:23:18] Well, and yeah

[00:23:20] So far it hasn't been bridge podcast, but I'll introduce them to yours

[00:23:24] Maybe you're the game changer for them. We're talking about them a fair amount on here, right?

[00:23:32] Like that if I were them

[00:23:35] Criterium then definitely listen to this one

[00:23:39] And also we're also being decently positive about them, right

[00:23:45] They should be they should feel happy after listening to this one I

[00:23:50] Spoke to

[00:23:52] So Sophie Boutish lives in Charlottesville and

[00:23:57] I knew I knew she was in the US, but I know Charles. Yeah

[00:24:00] She she showed up at the local bridge club a year ago

[00:24:04] With her mom and I knew them from the from Frotzloff where you won the mixed your mixed world championship and

[00:24:13] I was like, I mean literally like they showed up at the local bridge club in Charlottesville

[00:24:17] And I was like I didn't I had played against both of them

[00:24:20] But and I spoke her mom was my screenmate and so I said I went up to them

[00:24:28] I was like, what are y'all doing?

[00:24:31] I

[00:24:34] Yes, yes to Polish women at the local bridge club

[00:24:39] so the reason I bring this up is because

[00:24:43] They play on a team in the Polish League with you. Yeah, I

[00:24:50] Was gonna say that Sophie said and also Bob driver said that your nickname is

[00:24:57] The vault

[00:24:59] Yeah

[00:25:02] That's exactly true

[00:25:07] Is that like a facetious nickname

[00:25:10] Yeah

[00:25:16] Yeah, I've been known to not keep circles

[00:25:22] But once people know this is my nickname

[00:25:29] People tell me way less so it's okay

[00:25:35] I

[00:25:38] Yeah, that's it's centered around the

[00:25:41] common friends of Sophia and also myself like Rob Heller and

[00:25:47] he's a Dutch guy who moved to England who moved to Poland and and

[00:25:53] Raised the team there. So yeah, we always have lots of fun. We're

[00:26:00] Competing pretty nicely this time. We just failed to win the quarterfinals. So but yeah, we do we do it? Okay

[00:26:06] I have to say and yeah, Sophie usually plays there with her with her mom

[00:26:11] But this year she went to the US. I know I don't know is she she's still in the US now

[00:26:16] And she you know when she's June 2

[00:26:19] I think she's staying so she originally came for one year and

[00:26:24] As part of her PhD and I think she's a I think she's signed up to say for another year

[00:26:29] Yeah, that's how it all started

[00:26:32] They will leave after one year and never get rid of them

[00:26:38] Did you ever can have you ever considered I mean obviously sounds like your your family's got to be on board for this

[00:26:44] Have you thought about?

[00:26:47] Moving to the US or you know for more for more professional bridge opportunities

[00:26:53] well

[00:26:55] It's a certain point we considered it but not super seriously

[00:26:59] But it was like 10 15 years ago and our kids were very small

[00:27:03] Because that that is like that's a time when you

[00:27:07] When you can do it without too much trouble for everybody, right? So we consider doing that

[00:27:11] And it's not only for bridge reasons, but also for

[00:27:16] Climate reasons because the the balance it rains a lot. It's cold in the winter. So, you know

[00:27:23] I would like to live somewhere where it's a little bit warmer on average, but

[00:27:28] Yeah, we decided not to do it and

[00:27:31] No, I really like the Netherlands as a country. So I'm not

[00:27:36] About to leave and I know that if you live in the US

[00:27:39] Yeah, it's easier to to get some bridge jobs. That's true, but I'm getting by this way and

[00:27:48] So there's there's no need for me to do it anymore. I

[00:27:53] Think you know, I don't think you have a Wikipedia page

[00:27:57] Well, actually, I think you do but it's just in Dutch. Yeah, it's not sure. It doesn't really list like the titles

[00:28:05] so I

[00:28:08] You've won a couple

[00:28:12] Under like the on Stein

[00:28:15] Yeah

[00:28:17] Cups or something like that

[00:28:19] Yeah, I'm sorry is the name of the club in the Netherlands. I'm playing for it

[00:28:24] It's actually the name of a castle and but the the club owner lives in that castle and he named the bridge club

[00:28:32] He gave it the same name as his castle. So on Stein is a

[00:28:36] He says the name of a castle somewhere in the middle of the Netherlands and

[00:28:42] Under that name we

[00:28:44] We won lots of Dutch championships and when you are a Dutch champion or

[00:28:51] champion of any other top country in the in Europe you get to

[00:28:56] Participate in this European championships thing

[00:28:59] where the best ten teams of Europe are participating in and

[00:29:03] Yeah, we've won that twice I think

[00:29:06] so that that's

[00:29:08] That explains why you can see the name of all Stein in my

[00:29:13] resume a lot. Yeah

[00:29:14] So is that like a is that a does he play like in the US?

[00:29:20] You know sponsored typically plays on the team. Yeah, he's in there like an angel sponsor the one who doesn't

[00:29:27] Doesn't play he recently passed away actually

[00:29:31] Like half a year ago, so Hans Melchers who was the was the sponsor

[00:29:38] but

[00:29:39] I've been playing for on Stein for almost I think 18 to 20 years already. So it has been a big part of my professional career

[00:29:50] Part of my income is

[00:29:53] Through that channel and the other part is for playing in the US or in other countries

[00:29:59] Yeah, but it has been he has been very instrumental especially in the in the beginnings when

[00:30:05] We were not playing in the US. I put to as a first step to going professional. It was very good to have

[00:30:12] Sort of base income and that's that's what you typically provide. That's what yeah

[00:30:17] What was your first opportunity to play to play in the US? I

[00:30:22] played in my first

[00:30:25] you

[00:30:26] As national in a team with Sylvia Moss

[00:30:30] She passed away two years ago, I think and she played with

[00:30:36] Judy Raiden and our teammates were madala with David back she so it was a

[00:30:44] Like a strange mixture of people but

[00:30:46] Madala and back she are still also playing all the national that never had together anymore in the wall

[00:30:52] playing always in different teams, but yeah

[00:30:55] They were also just starting to get on the circuit obviously medallist somewhat younger than I am so

[00:31:04] And so much better

[00:31:06] It's a show you you got to play in the circuit a little earlier. So that's that's why our

[00:31:13] Entries coincided that we played on the same team. Yeah, but it was a fun experience. We lost to three years again

[00:31:18] To the nickel team. Oh

[00:31:20] Wow

[00:31:21] Yeah, and what what round I'm gonna say the round of

[00:31:27] 16 so it was not very deep. Yeah, yeah

[00:31:32] but still I mean

[00:31:34] To have been able to win that one would be amazing

[00:31:39] Because at one point I saw there's something on bridge winners where like in 2011 and said you were you played professionally

[00:31:46] But you also did like software. I think yeah

[00:31:49] I've been I've been like a part-time

[00:31:54] Professional for a long time

[00:31:58] So I started out as being a full-time IT software developer

[00:32:03] Yeah, and I

[00:32:06] Was self-employed and

[00:32:08] so therefore I was more flexible to

[00:32:12] To go to bridge tournaments stuff I had to arrange stuff with my

[00:32:16] With the places where I worked but but I didn't have like vacation days. I had to

[00:32:24] to work my way through so

[00:32:29] That was a good way

[00:32:32] To start playing bridge and then once the bridge parts

[00:32:36] grew I decided to work less and less

[00:32:40] For starting for five days for a week

[00:32:42] I got away for five to four to three to two to one

[00:32:46] One day a week for some period

[00:32:48] I decided this is crazy. Let's just

[00:32:51] Yes, let's focus on one thing and

[00:32:53] I quit I quit the song but I still like

[00:32:57] To code actually sometimes I

[00:33:00] Code something just for pure fun. So I like doing it once a nerd always a nerd, right?

[00:33:08] Do you think you've gotten better like you think you've gotten better at pretty since you've been able to focus on it more or?

[00:33:13] Yes

[00:33:16] Definitely your your consistency goes up a lot when you are just

[00:33:22] In that zone of playing bridge all time

[00:33:27] Obviously the your mental peak

[00:33:30] I mean it's guest to be like in your low 40s, right the combination of

[00:33:35] Your mental peak is actually somewhat younger, but with bridge

[00:33:40] It's not only that you also have experience to deal with so I

[00:33:44] Think nowadays they think you're your your peak is somewhere in your early 40s. I don't know if you have an opinion on that but

[00:33:53] The slope of starting from the mid 40s going down luckily is not very steep

[00:33:59] So I can I can hold my own for a few more years in

[00:34:05] I know you're joking about it when you said my Dallas better than you but

[00:34:10] Like you you really think he is like and how can you tell?

[00:34:15] Yeah, well, that's the funny thing about the bridge world. So you have

[00:34:19] If you compare to that the normal non bridge road where every one of us is

[00:34:25] It's the smart guy or smart girl and

[00:34:28] You know you used to do well in school and stuff and

[00:34:32] You play most of us anyway, and then you play bridge and then

[00:34:37] Somehow you stumble across some some geniuses who are still like two times as good as you are

[00:34:44] And that's what happens to me

[00:34:46] There are a couple of people who are yeah, I can honestly say they are a lot better at let's say declaring play

[00:34:54] Yeah, and then

[00:34:57] but Dallas

[00:34:59] Has been one for a long time already Krakowski is the name you can mention but also you can you can

[00:35:06] Mention like ten names who are

[00:35:08] How do you know the Dallas better than you though? Like how do you how did you know or how did you decide?

[00:35:13] Yeah, when you play enough boards against him and then you're defending four hearts and you think okay

[00:35:20] This this looks promising. He must be going down and then you know

[00:35:24] He reads you for the four-card trumps and then he throws you in. I mean, it's just those kind of things you

[00:35:31] You think you get the feeling okay?

[00:35:34] Knows better what the lead of ant is that I I do normally so

[00:35:39] But you can that's the beauty of bridge

[00:35:41] You can easily have a good good set against him because the national we won

[00:35:46] We won I think 47 0 a match against their team and we played to build a medallion two of the players who are in the category

[00:35:54] I would say

[00:35:57] But we still got to beat them 47 to 0 because it's not all about your individual qualities

[00:36:04] Declare a player. It's also about it's putting pressure with biddings

[00:36:08] It's it's about the difference in systems and sometimes your stuff works out to some size there stuff doesn't

[00:36:14] There's a lot of factors in place so that makes it very possible to win even though

[00:36:21] Maybe in the long long long long you are a little bit worse I

[00:36:27] Remember playing against medalla and I think it was the qualifying of the rising earth in 2016 and

[00:36:36] There was some hand he was declaring and

[00:36:40] He had to end play me and like he just played

[00:36:44] Like he just played it like

[00:36:47] It was like no thought like you just played it like so like it was just so natural and like automatic

[00:36:55] And I was just like

[00:36:57] Wow

[00:36:59] Yeah

[00:37:02] Yeah, yeah

[00:37:06] Yeah, I

[00:37:08] Don't I don't dislike playing against him. It's it's it's a challenge and

[00:37:15] Yeah, some some players are more challenging to beat than others, but

[00:37:19] It's always interesting to play a match against against him as he plays on the level which team

[00:37:25] Maybe he's gonna play on different team. Oh

[00:37:28] No, no, I think they're gonna stay at level which team, but we've played

[00:37:32] them like three or four times and

[00:37:35] We've won I think two and we lost three something like that. So it's we can't beat them

[00:37:40] But it's tough very tough matches

[00:37:43] Yeah, I

[00:37:45] Want to talk more about this Rob Polish League team because I think Eddie I don't know Eddie's last name

[00:37:51] But I think Eddie's a very funny man

[00:37:54] Oh and come

[00:37:57] It's a very Dutch name. So it's it's tough to pronounce against you have any

[00:38:04] Let me let me just so

[00:38:08] Here I'll tell you a story about about Sophia

[00:38:11] so I have a Tesla and

[00:38:15] Sophia had never driven a car before and

[00:38:19] so

[00:38:22] She wanted to to look to try driving and so I let her drive my car and

[00:38:27] I made a video of it and she shared it

[00:38:32] with Eddie and her mom and

[00:38:35] Eddie's comment was

[00:38:38] It looks like you've got all the high cars, but you're playing

[00:38:53] Very slowly

[00:38:55] Drove your car. Yeah. Yeah, you've got all the high cars

[00:39:07] He sees humor in everything

[00:39:14] He's a very funny guy after I cannot say otherwise

[00:39:19] And and I think they're coming to Toronto actually. Yeah, they're playing in the team with

[00:39:26] Bob driver actually

[00:39:28] my roommate for most national

[00:39:32] Bob driver and the League of Emporio and

[00:39:35] Jack

[00:39:36] and Jerry Stamato, I think that's their doctor team

[00:39:40] So then he's starting he's starting to play in the in the nationals and that that'll be their team

[00:39:46] So it'll be fun. Always fun to have more friends

[00:39:51] And that's two in my friend

[00:39:55] Who put together the Goodman team like how did you did Pacelle reach out to you or?

[00:40:01] Yes

[00:40:05] Pacelle and Marc Lair who were playing they were playing on the equipment team a couple years ago and

[00:40:11] I think we talked to both of them

[00:40:14] They were that they were about the fact that Andy Coopman was interested in

[00:40:19] Getting a team for the nationals. Yeah, since he was he was he was already

[00:40:24] the

[00:40:25] He had been playing in the nationals like some 30 years ago

[00:40:29] He retired bridge and then he made some money and now you went back to bridge

[00:40:37] He started playing the nationals again, but now he was interested in playing with a full team

[00:40:43] Yeah, we talked about it. Actually, I had my first real negotiation about stuff and so it was

[00:40:50] Interesting and we had a dinner at the Thai place and then the deal was made

[00:40:58] Where was this that you had the dinner in the Thai place? I think it was in Reno

[00:41:04] Reno the

[00:41:06] One of the nationals during cofit

[00:41:08] Well, no not during cofit, but like right after post cope with when it was just restarted right yet Austin and you had

[00:41:16] Reno yeah, and there we there we there we met in person over Thai dinner, which is always a good

[00:41:24] A good strategy

[00:41:25] So you had never really negotiated your deal before?

[00:41:30] um

[00:41:32] Not so much since

[00:41:35] We mostly had other people putting together the team and

[00:41:41] making

[00:41:43] Making a deal on behalf of us and stuff like that. So yeah, it's uh

[00:41:48] I've been told that for americans, but you can correct me if you're in wrong for americans

[00:41:52] It's way more normal to talk about money

[00:41:55] And to talk about what's uh to ask for money and to our

[00:42:00] No, it's too expensive. Yeah

[00:42:03] And in the Netherlands and I think most of europe is similar to the Netherlands in this aspect is it's uh

[00:42:11] Yeah, you stay away from the money subject most of the time

[00:42:14] So I I remember family holiday like 40 years ago with my with my parents when we uh went to the united states

[00:42:22] And we were getting gas at the local gas station and and the guy who put in gas in my father's car was asked

[00:42:28] Oh, what are you doing? I'm a civil servant. Uh, how much money do you make that was the second question?

[00:42:39] From that point onwards, I consider that to be typical americans

[00:42:45] No, that that was uh, yeah

[00:42:48] I don't mind talking about money, but I was definitely not used to it. Uh in the Netherlands. We somehow like

[00:42:54] Trying to evade that subject a little bit

[00:42:58] So did you both uh, did you both come off your original numbers or did you did did you accept it?

[00:43:06] We let's say we came together. I cannot

[00:43:10] Got it

[00:43:12] I cannot go into any more details with

[00:43:15] We came together. I think we're both happy that that we did and we had a

[00:43:20] Because of the success we've been having now

[00:43:24] Yeah, I mean you guys are you guys are doing great like uh, I mean

[00:43:29] I just wonder does it get like

[00:43:33] I mean

[00:43:34] Like, you know, you're you've won a bunch of you know major stuff like

[00:43:40] For me getting to the semi-finals of the soloway or even the quarter finals of the Vanderbilt

[00:43:46] Huge, you know and like even in the the last tournament playing uh, rosenthal closed for three quarters

[00:43:53] in the Vanderbilt but like uh

[00:43:56] What's sort of the what's sort of the mindset of the team about like these

[00:44:00] You know three semi-finals

[00:44:05] You mean how how we perceive the

[00:44:08] The success I mean is it like like

[00:44:11] Yeah, sure. Like I mean is it like still

[00:44:14] Exciting or is it like everybody's like man, we want to we want to I mean, obviously you won the jacobi, but uh, yeah

[00:44:20] Yeah, but no no that yeah as far as nationals go there's a there's a hierarchy there right? I mean

[00:44:27] The top three nationals are still the Vanderbilt the spinckles and um

[00:44:32] And the the rising her although

[00:44:34] Slash so the way I think that that that that was that's a tricky one

[00:44:38] But uh, so to win a two-day swiss tournament

[00:44:42] I'm super happy but I'm still waiting for my first

[00:44:46] Giant knockout win and so getting to the

[00:44:50] semifinal

[00:44:53] That the first time I was was also like a big

[00:44:58] For me personally it was a

[00:45:01] It was a big feeling but I think uh, Mike Bercel has done it million times before I think right?

[00:45:07] So he might feel differently. So

[00:45:11] And before

[00:45:13] Yeah, our run of three semifinal results

[00:45:17] I was just taking it one tournament at a time and trying to

[00:45:21] End up as high as possible

[00:45:22] Which you know now we've had three semifinal wins see results now now. I'm really

[00:45:29] Thinking about yeah, maybe next time we should aim to get to the final and obviously where you're always aimed to get to the final

[00:45:35] but

[00:45:36] Yeah, the first the first semifinal

[00:45:39] result always tastes better than the third. I have to say

[00:45:44] Yeah, so what was your seating at the Vanderbilt in 2023?

[00:45:48] Uh with the I guess it wasn't the same team. Did you have the Italians on the team at that time?

[00:45:54] Yeah

[00:45:55] Yes, we with the Italian she had three semifinals. I'm not sure when we started with them

[00:46:00] I think so it was in new Orleans. Well, you definitely had them in new orlinson. So what was your seating in 2023?

[00:46:07] Versus 2024 Vanderbilt. Do you remember?

[00:46:11] Like seated at the start of the just just from memory. I think we went from like 24 to 17 or something seating wise

[00:46:21] so it's

[00:46:22] We didn't we didn't

[00:46:25] Hits the top 10 seating. I think

[00:46:30] No, right. I'm pretty sure we we didn't hit a top 10 seating yet

[00:46:35] I'm not you know, there were you so many years that I've played these nationals and never had any

[00:46:42] Results, so I didn't really get into the specifics of how the seedings work, but maybe now I should start looking since

[00:46:51] Since we we finally have some points, right?

[00:46:55] Um, you and your partner, uh, bucky

[00:47:00] seem like very different

[00:47:03] Just in terms of like

[00:47:05] You're you're pretty, you know outgoing gregarious

[00:47:09] Bucky, I don't know that I've

[00:47:11] I don't know if we've ever even really exchanged

[00:47:14] exchange many words

[00:47:16] Uh, you guys have been playing together for 20 plus years like, uh,

[00:47:21] what's that?

[00:47:24] like

[00:47:26] Yeah, we are

[00:47:28] In some aspects we're very different. That's true, but um when it comes to

[00:47:34] Let's say the bridge the technical bridge aspect we we are pretty similar. We we like to

[00:47:41] Okay, the way you form your agreements, we are very similar. We like to have

[00:47:46] strict rules and not too many

[00:47:50] Uh floating agreements, uh, if you know what I mean like

[00:47:55] The ones where you on a case-by-case basis you have to decide based on your feeling what what applies where and we we both don't like it at all

[00:48:04] and

[00:48:05] We both I think above average in trying to remember system stuff

[00:48:10] So that's why we can handle a complex

[00:48:14] system like a strong club relay system

[00:48:16] and lots of

[00:48:19] agreements about

[00:48:21] Intervention and stuff so that it takes it takes a lot of effort to to get it right

[00:48:27] and

[00:48:28] I think yeah

[00:48:30] We we don't mind the work. So in that aspect, we are pretty pretty similar

[00:48:37] We are uh, but uh

[00:48:39] As to our strengths our bridge strengths there are somewhat different

[00:48:44] Uh, Bowker has always been a very good declarer and but he really excels at defending

[00:48:50] and there

[00:48:53] He has really uh, you know

[00:48:57] Helped me get become a better defender. That's that's for sure. Um, I have now have the feeling that with bowker i'm one of the

[00:49:05] best pairs in

[00:49:06] in defense

[00:49:08] but uh, yeah, that's mainly because

[00:49:12] Our agreements and the way bowker approaches stuff and what I've come to adopt

[00:49:20] The way that works, you know

[00:49:23] Bidding wise we are a little bit different. He has a different approach and I

[00:49:27] I am somewhat I take a little bit more risk in competitive bidding

[00:49:33] Yeah, depending on

[00:49:36] Depending on how the wind blows as they say in the Netherlands the results

[00:49:42] Are also different, right?

[00:49:45] How does it like you said he's helped you become a better defender like how does that how does that come to pass?

[00:49:53] well because the

[00:49:56] When when the hands

[00:49:58] go wrong

[00:50:00] We talk about it and we

[00:50:02] Fine tunes are defensive agreements. So

[00:50:08] It's not only that you know what you play in every situation, but also that you play the right thing in every situation

[00:50:15] There are some simple

[00:50:18] simple

[00:50:20] Examples of that, you know, you everybody has an agreement that to play like super preference when the w is short or whatever

[00:50:26] But it's just a very very simple example, but you can

[00:50:29] and you also

[00:50:33] Make lots more more

[00:50:35] Examples where where you play different stuff in different situations. So by talking about all those different situations

[00:50:45] We have developed our bidding our defensive agreement system a lot better and

[00:50:53] Yeah, just by his personal approach to defense he

[00:50:59] Very often he he thinks and then

[00:51:04] He sees like a chance

[00:51:07] uh, whereas most people would have given up on the on the contract and played the most natural looking cards already

[00:51:14] Yeah, so that he that that's uh, that's

[00:51:17] yeah

[00:51:19] What he has inspired me to do also on more occasions to

[00:51:24] To get into the hand to form a picture of the hands and to to to play the right card. I mean it's

[00:51:30] Defensive particularly tough since you you cannot rely on your own brilliance there. You have to really

[00:51:37] Get on the same page as your partner and uh, there's no right or wrong

[00:51:41] It's just you have to combine

[00:51:45] Your two truths to one story. So that's

[00:51:48] Yeah, do you

[00:51:50] have any like

[00:51:52] I mean it

[00:51:54] Like false carding for example, like there was there was a hand

[00:51:58] There's a couple hands that I can think back to lovo where

[00:52:02] I I false carded uh on on two occasions once because I I knew that I

[00:52:08] I was like I wanted to declare to get the wrong picture of the hand

[00:52:12] but then

[00:52:14] and that was in the

[00:52:17] In the knockout and then in a match points playing with the same partner

[00:52:22] I gave a true. I played a true card, which I thought should be

[00:52:26] Like obvious that I wouldn't false card like in my partner suit

[00:52:31] And we ended up misdefending on that

[00:52:36] do you have any like uh

[00:52:39] Like

[00:52:40] I mean

[00:52:41] It seems kind of deep because it seems like it would be hard to explain to the opponent

[00:52:44] Like how you have like an agreement about when you false card or not

[00:52:48] Yeah, that's that aspect about false carding. There's also the the trust aspect which also

[00:52:55] That's if you false card your partner the next time around, you know, he's not so sure anymore

[00:53:01] Yeah, so um, I think the optimal

[00:53:05] false card frequency

[00:53:07] is

[00:53:08] Higher than what bow can I?

[00:53:12] Use right

[00:53:14] That most definitely I mean we are

[00:53:17] Making life a little bit too easy for the opponents

[00:53:20] Obviously our rationale is that you also make life for yourself easier

[00:53:25] Which saves energy and saving energy so you can do complicated stuff

[00:53:30] You have energy left over for doing other complicated stuff

[00:53:34] And yeah, what you mentioned there's also this ethical thing right if you are a partnership where

[00:53:40] You fast card very often

[00:53:43] Then your partner really

[00:53:46] Has more information than the opponents. Yeah

[00:53:49] It's very tough to combat. I mean, it's it's same with psychs

[00:53:54] psychic opening bits or psychic

[00:53:56] And well any bit any psychic bits

[00:53:59] It's uh, it's a good idea in in theory. I mean, I like the creativity. I like the

[00:54:05] effect that you can totally fool people and

[00:54:09] But yeah for me

[00:54:11] The downside of

[00:54:14] Of psychs

[00:54:15] Namely that your partner is bound to know more than the opponents. It's just too too much

[00:54:20] So if you ask me, I wouldn't mind a psych-free bridge world

[00:54:25] Yeah

[00:54:26] But I know I know I you take a little bit away of the creativity. So it it's it's it's not a popular

[00:54:33] popular stands, but

[00:54:35] But yeah, if it's came down to a vote, I I wouldn't mind

[00:54:40] Taking out psychs or for at all and false carding a false card is

[00:54:46] Yeah, like a half psych. Maybe it's a simple thing. I don't know

[00:54:50] I guess the difference was that I don't think my partner was ever going to be on play

[00:54:55] On the hand where I false carded. So it didn't really matter

[00:54:58] But on the hand where I gave him the true card

[00:55:02] You know, he was gonna he was going to be getting in

[00:55:05] Yeah, that's obviously a big factor in whether you should false card is whether you think

[00:55:10] Who has the uh, who has the most to do the declarer or your partner and sometimes you you get it wrong

[00:55:17] You false card

[00:55:18] partner gets the lead in an unexpected way and starts thinking and then you you think oh

[00:55:22] Oh, whatever I done because now, you know, partner is trying to figure things out with the wrong information and that's

[00:55:29] Let's say with bauk it normally that doesn't end well

[00:55:35] If he finds a layout that it's consistent with your carding

[00:55:39] Very almost inevitably does a does a different thing than he would have done with the correct information

[00:55:45] So it's I almost never get away with a false card if

[00:55:49] If I judge wrongly that bauk is the one making it happen to make the decision

[00:55:56] Uh, you also you we've all been in that situation, right? They wear you are, you know, lazily

[00:56:03] Throwing some cards. Yeah, not even intentionally, but you're you're really giving the wrong

[00:56:08] information to partner and now partner starts thinking and then you think

[00:56:15] And then the longer you have to wait for his decision

[00:56:23] Does he what's his relationship like with your girls

[00:56:27] Uh, bauk is pretty sure about my girls. Oh, I mean, I think he talks to them a little bit, but

[00:56:34] No, they haven't had much contact. I have to say

[00:56:40] He's not like a godfather to them if you if that's what you're going

[00:56:44] No, not yet

[00:56:46] No, but they they like they really liked the the bridge scene overall so they they met uh

[00:56:52] Uh

[00:56:55] Lots of good players also and the the first round of the

[00:56:59] What do we play this pink now? We played the Vanderbilt, right? Yeah

[00:57:02] The first hundred Vanderbilt they played against bill the medala and uh, Rosenberg

[00:57:09] crosshack

[00:57:11] The lebuyts team

[00:57:13] And they won the first set by 15 games, which is amazing. Wow. Yeah, that was that was uh, okay

[00:57:20] Uh, the the story ends there because they lost the match by 150 or something like that

[00:57:25] Which was normal but to win the first set per 15 and then to come out and

[00:57:30] Say to me. I really liked their opponents and they had a sponsor was a little show a slow and stuff

[00:57:36] And then to find out that they had miss guest who was the sponsor that was amazing feeling

[00:57:43] Michael Rosenberg they thought Michael was a sponsor

[00:57:46] I can I can

[00:57:50] I will not

[00:57:54] Oh my god, I got it. I'm gonna have to go actually it's probably not on view grab

[00:57:59] I don't know. There's a way to see

[00:58:01] I'm not actively

[00:58:07] We can use a deep throat

[00:58:11] Method okay the ball

[00:58:13] Yeah

[00:58:17] We had some fun about that. I mean, obviously

[00:58:21] They're pretty clueless as to

[00:58:24] Most of the people in the bridge were still yeah, so

[00:58:27] Yeah

[00:58:28] Yeah, I I think I uh, I told you and bob about this that at the karaoke about how I

[00:58:35] I wasn't really squeezed

[00:58:37] against them

[00:58:40] I played I played against them in like one of those one day swisses when you're the swiss miss and uh

[00:58:48] Yeah, anyway, I miss defended on on the hand. Yeah. Yeah. I I don't remember it that well

[00:58:57] I told us better version of the story to you once already so I'm sorry sorry to the listeners

[00:59:04] Yeah

[00:59:09] Yeah, yeah, that's the

[00:59:12] People come up to me and they say, yeah, I played against your daughter's. Yeah, but

[00:59:17] And they inevitably

[00:59:21] Say oh, they were very cute and stuff like that. So I got more compliments that way then by winning the

[00:59:28] The swiss the two-day swiss. I can I can assure you

[00:59:34] What does your wife say about

[00:59:36] About, you know, your daughter's taking it up

[00:59:39] Yeah, she's uh, she's pretty uh

[00:59:43] Supportive in the in the sense that she wants them to do well also. She's

[00:59:48] She's uh, like one of those fanatic

[00:59:51] Supporters, you know, one of those when they come home. What did you do? How did you do and

[00:59:57] So they yeah, they

[00:59:59] She wants them to do well and oh, she wants them to have fun, but she's more

[01:00:05] Yeah, she's more into winning than

[01:00:09] Than that so the they they're competitive genes they've got from both both their parents. Yeah

[01:00:16] um

[01:00:18] One other thing, uh, bob said something about you running a marathon like you have a goal of running a marathon. Is that uh,

[01:00:24] Yeah, that's my uh legit

[01:00:27] Yeah, it's it started like a year ago

[01:00:31] when I went on the holiday to

[01:00:34] To israel actually something you cannot imagine nowadays, but to go on holiday. It's uh, but like a year ago that was still

[01:00:43] The thing to do and we went on the holiday we um

[01:00:48] I went on to a walk and then back home

[01:00:51] I looked at the holiday pictures

[01:00:54] We took and then I thought this is this is going into the wrong direction. So, uh

[01:01:00] I decided to go on the crash diet

[01:01:04] I started running

[01:01:07] Yeah, so

[01:01:10] March last year. I started and then I

[01:01:12] I climbed my way up to a 10k and then I did a 15k in november and then I did a

[01:01:18] half marathon in

[01:01:20] March

[01:01:21] So

[01:01:22] Like a year

[01:01:24] Now did a half marathon, but it was not a pleasant experience to have marathon. It's it's I have to

[01:01:30] Those who haven't done the one it's long. It's far

[01:01:34] It takes a long time and it's it's pretty exhausting. So

[01:01:38] I'm not quite ready to run a marathon just yet. So that I'll I'll see what happens

[01:01:43] Maybe I'll uh, I'll get into it. I'll get in some more. There's also there's a group of people

[01:01:50] Running in the early mornings in the nation's did you know about that? Uh, uh

[01:01:54] Like kranjek and bag she and and some more people they they get up every morning like at seven

[01:02:00] Oh, they run they run for an hour just prior to oh, yeah

[01:02:05] I mean

[01:02:08] I think that's very tough to do but

[01:02:10] Yeah, they they they've been running marathons. So I'm not quite up to their level yet, but

[01:02:16] Have you done it?

[01:02:18] What I have done it with them on separate occasions. Yes, but not not during the

[01:02:25] The nationals

[01:02:26] Somehow it doesn't you know, I yeah the fact that we start play at 10

[01:02:32] And means that I feel cramped

[01:02:34] Timelys already right?

[01:02:37] I just want to sleep as long as possible and then I don't want to feel rushed. So

[01:02:40] No, I don't I don't want to do that

[01:02:43] What's your favorite city for the uh nationals in the u.s or canada even?

[01:02:50] um

[01:02:52] And least favorite

[01:02:55] I

[01:02:57] Have one for least favorite I think yeah, maybe you can inspire me because

[01:03:03] Reno

[01:03:04] Yeah, I was gonna say

[01:03:06] I was gonna say rena or las vegas but las vegas is is great

[01:03:10] The the first couple of times you go there or maybe maybe even the first two days

[01:03:15] Or every time you go there, but you go for 10 days. So

[01:03:20] Then one of the cities reno or las vegas they're not I don't know. I know they're not the same but

[01:03:27] They have there are some things that are the same man after two days. Yeah, that's enough. So

[01:03:35] I I like I'm probably gonna regret saying rena that i mean that's gonna come back to bite me

[01:03:40] I think anyway, yeah, well you can always have people that were there. Yeah, you can edit it

[01:03:45] I mean

[01:03:49] You can edit this it's nowhere. We can make a subscription for people that want to hear

[01:03:54] Yeah, I can make a subscription for people that want to hear what my least favorite city was. Okay

[01:04:00] Yeah, well, uh, San Francisco is always one of the favorites, but I think I most like the the san diego one because that's the

[01:04:09] if the

[01:04:10] The west coast I like and then oh, so the egg was a little more relaxed than san francisco and the city and

[01:04:17] Episodes, but yeah, I'm gonna say San Diego actually. Yeah, why not?

[01:04:22] And I really liked the one in canada. So I think the last one in canada was toronto also, right? Yeah

[01:04:28] So i'm i'm looking forward to this one

[01:04:34] Yeah, so least favorite baby, I'll join you with the rena one and

[01:04:40] Favorite i'm doing. Yeah san diego or or toronto if you consider that one of the

[01:04:46] US cities

[01:04:49] When you first got hired to come to the us was that like how big of a deal is that for you?

[01:04:55] um

[01:04:58] It was money-wise it was not a big deal

[01:05:00] All right, you you start uh, you don't start with the big numbers obviously

[01:05:06] but

[01:05:07] The fact that people were uh

[01:05:09] Were willing to spend serious money on me that that's that's obviously very flattering

[01:05:14] And it also had a promise right it held a promise of more

[01:05:18] Because you know that people who are playing professional that everybody starts at so at

[01:05:24] At some point and then they slowly get into the the scene

[01:05:29] The circuit I say

[01:05:31] So that was mainly the excitement that maybe this is this is my first step into

[01:05:37] life as a bridge player

[01:05:39] and

[01:05:41] Yeah, it was my when I started playing professionally that it was it was my goal then I think to

[01:05:48] To have that take over the other part of my life, but it took a while. Let's see. Finally

[01:05:54] It did happen

[01:05:56] Who's on the dutch team for the uh

[01:05:59] What do you how do you distinguish? You know the

[01:06:02] Do you call the there's europeans teams and then there's the trans nationals

[01:06:08] Yeah, when you're speak, how do you distinguish?

[01:06:11] Like differentiate between them when you when you when you talk about them

[01:06:16] We have the close the closed europeans. Yeah, and that's the europeans, uh, where every country gets to send one team

[01:06:25] right and the open europeans is where

[01:06:29] Every country gets to send multiple teams and even the team members don't need necessarily to be

[01:06:34] From the same country. They don't even necessarily need to be from europe

[01:06:40] So, yeah, open european championship

[01:06:43] Basically is just a tournament

[01:06:46] But they give it this nice sounding title to

[01:06:50] To give it more buzz

[01:06:52] but

[01:06:54] In danmark, we're going to play the closed european

[01:06:57] And that's always the more obviously the more prestigious one

[01:07:01] The lesser the number of teams the more prestigious it is

[01:07:04] And we're going to play that with verbayk mononar tim verbayk and danie molem there

[01:07:09] and

[01:07:12] A new pair well, they are not new as a pair, but they are new on the team

[01:07:17] key men's leon and

[01:07:19] t-bow spring kaizen and their names are pretty tough. I guess for an american but they

[01:07:25] They their big success was they came in second in the fudge rough

[01:07:29] Losing in the final to the nickel team. Yeah, so that was the the rosin bloom. I think yeah final

[01:07:36] Which was an amazing accomplishment since they played that tournament

[01:07:42] Four-handed

[01:07:44] One of their players was had to go home to take care of a

[01:07:50] Sick relative so now they and they played every board

[01:07:54] Maybe they played five handed but at least they are the Dutch guys. They every board

[01:07:59] Right. They played every board right so that there must have been like a very draining tournament and but they kept their level and

[01:08:05] Yeah, obviously it was just it was just not enough to win the title but they

[01:08:11] They made a pretty big impact and it has played a role in

[01:08:15] They're getting them selected for the dutch team

[01:08:18] and also the

[01:08:20] We have this group at a team and l group where

[01:08:23] Because this out of five to seven pairs typically now there are seven

[01:08:27] And we had some changes there some partnerships that

[01:08:30] They broke off and started new new partnerships and that helped

[01:08:34] them

[01:08:35] Because the new partnerships for good reasons had to wait a little before

[01:08:40] getting selected to the team so now they

[01:08:43] Now they took their opportunity and

[01:08:46] It became

[01:08:47] The third pair or yeah, maybe the second pair. I don't know in which order we were selected that

[01:08:52] for the team

[01:08:55] Yeah, I'm

[01:08:57] I'm excited to see how we will be doing. I think the Netherlands will always be

[01:09:01] one of the top contenders for the first

[01:09:04] for first eight spots

[01:09:06] and we've done very well the last couple of times except from the

[01:09:10] The world champions the formidable round from where we ended up night just just missing out on the playoff

[01:09:16] So we have something to avenge now. Let's say

[01:09:23] yeah, I'm thinking about

[01:09:26] My partner for the last three nationals matt brown

[01:09:31] What a big win it was for them to beat you guys in the

[01:09:34] in

[01:09:36] What was it Leon? Yeah in france. Yeah, they with new zealand they beat us in the quarter final, right? Yeah, that was

[01:09:44] For us that was a

[01:09:47] Match we

[01:09:48] We expected to win beforehand, right? So that hurt. I mean we didn't deserve to win

[01:09:55] I mean, it was a close match, but we didn't we didn't play well enough

[01:09:58] So they I'm not saying that they that they were no cure or anything

[01:10:01] But I mean it was definitely a match that's

[01:10:04] When we started it. We very much expected to be

[01:10:08] favored and

[01:10:11] I think they would expect also for us to be favored, but yeah, they we just didn't play well enough and we lost which was

[01:10:21] Which is bad obviously, but yeah

[01:10:22] Yeah, you got another ones is like the team to beat most a lot of the time, you know most of times this was the first time actually that's

[01:10:30] bring driver

[01:10:33] Didn't play for the Netherlands anymore. So that this is the first tournament they skipped

[01:10:37] so that that's kind of weakened our team but it didn't show as much since in the

[01:10:43] preliminary round robin we ended up second. So yeah, you cannot say that we

[01:10:49] We were hurt very much by their

[01:10:52] Exit but still the quarterfinal was

[01:10:56] Was too much apparently

[01:10:59] I reached out to short asking him if he had any suggestions on

[01:11:03] On questions for you. He did not respond

[01:11:06] He did not respond. No, there's a friend for you

[01:11:17] Oh, maybe he did me a solid by not

[01:11:19] Giving you any dirt

[01:11:24] No, he's a fun loving guy, you know, he's yeah

[01:11:29] No, I don't know why he didn't respond. He normally he would I think maybe you used to

[01:11:34] Like a Swiss address where he's no one's name. You know, I don't know. I got no juice, man

[01:11:43] No, but I think you reached out to Bob right Bob driver. Yeah, yeah, Bob

[01:11:48] Yeah, Bob the

[01:11:50] Yeah

[01:11:52] We we played on the Dutch team together obviously lots of times but this time he's not selected because yeah, the reason I mentioned

[01:12:00] He's into like a new wish partnership with rick of embroidery. Yeah, but uh

[01:12:05] Yeah, we've been roommates at the last whatever 40 tournaments in the US or something. Yeah, so it's

[01:12:15] Yeah, it's

[01:12:17] It's an ongoing thing. Let's put it like that. I was gonna ask actually if your daughters

[01:12:23] If you shared room with your daughters, but no, no, no, no, I uh

[01:12:27] They they paid her own way man. They uh, so they were yeah, they are they were in the iconology

[01:12:34] They were roughing it. They were roughing it in the iconology

[01:12:39] Oh my god, wow, they uh, yeah, that's

[01:12:43] I helped them a little financially throughout the year, but the deal for this one was that they paid their own

[01:12:51] Flight and hotel and I would take care of the rest

[01:12:57] sort of so

[01:12:59] Lucky for me the entrance fee for juniors were were zero. So

[01:13:05] Yeah, I think I didn't even know so they didn't have to pay any entry fee

[01:13:09] Wow. Yeah, and that's a big difference because the entry fees are uh, yeah

[01:13:14] That they add up great. Yeah, that's that's great

[01:13:19] And they are 19 so they can enjoy this for like another six seven years. I think

[01:13:27] I might have a professional opportunity for your

[01:13:31] A daughter, but I don't know if that would work

[01:13:33] Uh, if it would work because they probably want to play together and they probably want to play the toughest event

[01:13:41] Yeah, I don't know. I mean

[01:13:44] If you uh, not playing with me it's somebody somebody else

[01:13:49] Obviously, uh, half the money goes to me that that goes without saying

[01:13:55] So whichever number you mention I'll tell them have

[01:13:58] I

[01:14:02] No, no, no, I mean, I don't know. I don't know how they'll uh, what they want to do

[01:14:06] I I said to them just come to the nationals and

[01:14:10] They the last time they came with uh teammates

[01:14:14] But this time they come without any teammates and say I said you try to find teammates there and you don't you never know

[01:14:21] What happened? So that's that's uh, that's what they're doing. So, um, I'm guessing they'll be very open to your suggestion but

[01:14:29] It's uh easy to reach them. It just

[01:14:31] Replace the last digit of my email address and then you have one of them. Okay

[01:14:41] Thank you as always for listening

[01:14:44] The audience for this show

[01:14:46] Ranges widely everywhere from world champions

[01:14:51] like bob 11

[01:14:53] To my former psychiatrist who

[01:14:57] Really took up bridge during covid and is super keen

[01:15:01] So it is truly a pleasure to hear from each and every one of you

[01:15:07] I love it when you share your stories

[01:15:10] If you have any feedback what you'd like to hear more or less of

[01:15:14] Please reach out john at the setting trick dot com

[01:15:18] And i'm going to england to play golf for the next week