Matthew Granovetter is a six-time NABC champion. He also won a world championship, the Mixed Pairs, in 2006. He is a popular author and teacher, along with his wife, Pamela. They are best known for their theories on bidding via their system GUS (Granovetter Unified System) and their books on defensive play.
Matthew is Hasidic (a branch of Orthodox Judaism); his spirituality is woven throughout his life and bridge – the two are inseparable. His latest book on Method Bridge is his proudest contribution to the game.
[00:00:00] Hi, my name is John McAllister welcome back to The Setting Trick podcast.
[00:00:07] Today we have our first ever Hasidic Jew appearing as a guest, my friend Matthew Granovetter.
[00:00:16] You're going to hear about the role that Bridge played in Matthew coming to his faith.
[00:00:24] You're going to hear about how that faith sometimes gets in the way of his being able to do his job as a professional bridge player.
[00:00:37] You're going to hear the names of a lot of Bridge Legends and probably most interesting,
[00:00:45] you're going to hear the story of how he met his wife Pamela which Matthew would not describe as it all coincidental.
[00:00:55] I'm excited to welcome Matt Granovetter onto the Setting Trick.
[00:01:02] We recorded a test audio session a week ago and you started telling me this story,
[00:01:12] Matt about meeting our, our, our kibiting Kathy Way and I just wanted to go straight into that.
[00:01:20] Okay, did you tell everybody that we haven't discussed one word about what I'm talking about today? There's no preparation on this.
[00:01:31] No, I have not.
[00:01:33] Oh, my list of that will know that I'm erratic about now they know how I prepare for that.
[00:01:38] This is all off the off the cuff so this is indeed okay, so Kathy way who passed away recently.
[00:01:48] It was interesting she was very big in my life.
[00:01:54] Of course, when I was maybe 20 years old, I was at the New York Hilton and I didn't have a partner so I kept it's her at the, at the tournament and she was playing with her teacher.
[00:02:12] And we started chatting and after that I got to meet her husband who was CC way or Charles Way at the time.
[00:02:25] And he, and he then vented this new system called precision and he had many, he was, he was sponsoring many little teams.
[00:02:37] This was before they, they won any championships and I was on the like the the C team and I at one point I moved up to the B team but, but this was my introduction to to professional bridge really through her.
[00:02:56] But she had ended up having any normal misaffect on my life because.
[00:03:04] Besides the fact that I was privileged to know her and her husband, her husband should have been in the whole of their years ago he was in.
[00:03:12] And a charismatic person and the inventor of a system that the entire country took up at the time.
[00:03:21] And anyway, she, she, she later when he passed away she later remarried and.
[00:03:35] And she was a Jewish man and went to Israel to see Israel, the country of Israel.
[00:03:43] And in the meantime this was now when I was like in my late 30s 40, I actually it's almost 20 years later.
[00:03:54] And I was living in an upstate New York with my wife and two children.
[00:04:05] And she suggested that we go to Kathy, we suggested that we go to Israel for the Tel Aviv bridge festival.
[00:04:16] So we went to the bridge festival with Kathy and.
[00:04:23] And I, we, what we end up with three of us together winning three events which was unusual in in a week in a short week of about four or five events.
[00:04:37] And that was supernatural and then we, and we got to see Israel and we decided that was like a pilot trip and then suddenly we got the urge to live in Israel from this.
[00:04:50] And she didn't leave it at that first of all, one of the things she did was with was with funny thing she took us after week we made all this money at the bridge festival.
[00:05:01] She took us to our favorite jewelry store in Tel Aviv and he when I came in and Kathy said, who was a very strong person, she said, you have to buy you your wife a nice jewel now you have to buy her.
[00:05:18] You know, you can I said sure sure about the price the guy brings out a price tag, you know, which was you know like 2700 shackles what.
[00:05:31] I, my wife likes to tell the story that I almost fainted but.
[00:05:37] But so we had to we bought that and they went the profits, but that was okay.
[00:05:44] Later on, later on, we decided then suddenly was Israel is wow this is wow easy we won at the bridge we country's beautiful in the spiritual.
[00:05:55] The next thing you know we're moving to Israel and and not what is Kathy way do she said the place she tells us where we should move to as well.
[00:06:06] She should move to the city of Natanya.
[00:06:10] So I she and my mom they went to the Tanya and they found this the apartment overlooking the sea where we moved to.
[00:06:18] And I had a you can see how she affected my I live there for 12 years we had another baby that so she affected my entire life.
[00:06:29] She was with her going back when I was 21 years old I was in Las Vegas for the a blue team versus.
[00:06:40] Versus.
[00:06:43] Ases.
[00:06:44] Special match that they were having and they had a tournament and they had but they also had the special match between the blue team and the aces the Italian blue team and the aces.
[00:06:54] Yeah and when I was there I met Benito Goracho for the first time.
[00:07:05] And I it was my birthday in December and I said Kathy I said to Kathy we were at the near the rule of roulette table I said Kathy.
[00:07:17] Maybe I could play you could get me a session with with Benito.
[00:07:23] Because they were going to decide games so she said I will I will arrange it and she did and I got my jacket on and I got my you know I put a tie on I was that's my mentality at that time you know.
[00:07:40] And and not like you know to be a club and everything and we played and then there was one hand.
[00:07:51] And because of this there was one year that affected my whole bridge game for years and that hand was where I had a single tune to get against the suit contract or I had a King Queen.
[00:08:06] And I got the King Queen combination and it the single tune would have worked smoother would have gone a s rough a s rough down one.
[00:08:17] All right and Benito took me aside and he said matcho he didn't talk he's English wasn't so good yet he said matcho when when I tell you story when I was your age.
[00:08:33] When I was a boy.
[00:08:37] I learned always lead a single tune always then.
[00:08:43] That you I grew up I I've heard many different plays and ideas and I become blue team star and I realize no you must think before opening the you must think sometimes it's wrong to lead a single tune.
[00:09:00] Then as time went on.
[00:09:04] I keep leading other suits from singleton but no it's always the single tune that beats the contract and now in my older age.
[00:09:15] I always gave my single tune.
[00:09:18] So he went from one stage to another and after that.
[00:09:22] I always got my single tune and it worked pretty well and I asked my partner's also please good your single tune and even.
[00:09:32] Did you read the contract and it's a good deal that Benito.
[00:09:40] Benito said vice was was to lead the single contract did you beat the contract that led him to ask to tell you this.
[00:09:48] When we did it we did when I like the can queen we didn't beat the contract.
[00:09:53] I had to lead the single tune right.
[00:09:58] And he was adamant always we just singleton later on I wrote a book called Murder at the Bridge table and I put Benito in the book telling me the story.
[00:10:09] I was going to be my single tune.
[00:10:12] All right that was a book about a fictitious book but it was fiction it was fiction but it was about a guy that played in an individual years ago and was murdered by all his partners sort of in the Agatha Christie.
[00:10:29] Method and because he and all his partners pinned to his shirt in the hotel room all the all the crime bridge crimes he committed.
[00:10:41] They they pinned to his shirt all the hand records and they would circle the cards and what he did what he did to drive him crazy to hate it.
[00:10:50] All right, so so one of the thing was he didn't need a single tune right.
[00:10:59] But it was anyway that that was a thrilling experience for me when I when I first met Benito and he wasn't that old to me he was old because I was 20 21 and he was like maybe he was as old as 40.
[00:11:18] Yeah, you know, yeah at that time I didn't do a very good job of introducing you I realize that's all right.
[00:11:26] So you've won six NABC titles I think including the SpindGold in 2009 you won the mixed pairs roll championship in 2006 you've written something written in published something like 20 bridge books and have a bridge magazine or it's was sort of moved online called bridge today.
[00:11:51] We we published when when my wife and I Pamela got married in 1983.
[00:12:02] Yeah, it's a long time ago 93 hundred thirty four years ago maybe I missed our anniversary this year.
[00:12:12] We we we we were Abbott Bridge players at best friend was a guy named Zia young guy from Pakistan.
[00:12:20] And he would meet us after the after his we would working down on Wall Street on the stock exchange the American stock exchange where all the option traders will work it.
[00:12:31] And he would meet us at the end of the day and tell us his stories about what happened at the rubber bridge table because that's how he spent his day.
[00:12:41] So and we would I have so hard but but but we we then decided we left Wall Street was we had a baby.
[00:12:49] Yeah and we got close to because also.
[00:12:54] We didn't like it it wasn't our.
[00:12:59] Talent but we had the reason I say we had a baby is because my wife had to leave because she had a baby.
[00:13:05] Yeah because she we were both on the floor of the American stock exchange.
[00:13:10] But we weren't money hungry right or wrong okay it wasn't that type of thing we we like to we'll offer state together was to go to a bookstore and buy a book that we each liked you know we we was sort of like.
[00:13:27] We had other interests then bridge as well and and they weren't it wasn't religion at all we would we will not.
[00:13:38] And when we got married my wife claims that she she made she made us agree that we there would be absolutely no reggation in her marriage.
[00:13:49] But man makes plans in God.
[00:13:52] Which is interesting because you like for those that are just listening and not watching this and maybe it's possible that you'll only be allowed to listen to this we haven't decided that.
[00:14:01] Yeah anyway, you know you're an orthodox I think correct me if I'm wrong but you're you and Pamela both are orthodox right actually even more than orthodox were acetic.
[00:14:13] Acetic you know the guys from the 18th century walk around with long jackets and black hats and white we don't have white stockings but we're modern acetic we're with a movement called LeBarbitch or Hobad.
[00:14:29] Okay, Hobad is an acronym for three Hebrew words which come from Kabala.
[00:14:39] Hobad in in English it spelled CH a B a D.
[00:14:45] But in Hebrew it's it's karma is the first word for the sea.
[00:14:51] Being at and thus now cockma means and I explain this in my new book this year in method bridge which I said you you got a copy right away.
[00:15:03] You got a forward copy right away until I fixed it and and cockma being and does and how you use that also when you play bridges of declarer when your cockma is the first flash of an idea that a person gets about any subject.
[00:15:21] Yeah, you see something you get a you get an idea right so in bridge dummy comes down you're the declarer.
[00:15:30] You get an idea oh there's a single ten I'm going to rock cards or there's a there's a suit I'm going to set up something that that take strikes your fancy right away right.
[00:15:43] Then being a is the second word cockma being a and does so being is the feminine for and it's the extension of the idea where you think it through well how am I going to do it.
[00:15:55] How am I going to go about and make this idea happen.
[00:15:58] And then does spelled maybe D a s and English does is means knowledge Adam new Eve does.
[00:16:08] Adam does Eve.
[00:16:11] Also it means to know to to to at that point after you've done the flesh of an idea and you thought it through then suddenly you have it.
[00:16:24] And you're 100 you're just sure that you know what you're doing okay and then you call your first card from dummy.
[00:16:31] You know obviously this is the first thing we teach begin is don't call a card from dummy until you think make a plan right.
[00:16:44] So so that's why I saying that oh that's the acronym for the organization that the branch of Judaism that we belong to which is a classic.
[00:16:56] A.
[00:16:57] A.
[00:16:57] Hocic branch that goes way back to the.
[00:17:01] Mystical Baosemtov in the early part of the.
[00:17:07] 17th century.
[00:17:09] 18th century 18 centuries the 1700s right 18th century.
[00:17:14] Yeah right right right right right right right and it's still flourishing today and and it's filled with not only intellectual ideas like I just mentioned.
[00:17:24] I mean from from Cabala but it's also filled with joy and warmth.
[00:17:33] Which is which is an important thing in any work of life and having a sense of humor right.
[00:17:39] And if you play bridge you have to have a sense of humor otherwise you would otherwise you would never sleep at night.
[00:17:48] Yeah right so we so somehow my life changed and we became we went from completely secular and to adopting this this religious lifestyle.
[00:18:02] Yeah yeah and and partly through Kathy way and partly because when we moved up state in New York we met.
[00:18:12] We met certain people and and we took our first lesson in Cricitis which is a religious form of Cabala and people don't understand that at all the the who are and who haven't experienced it what it is why we're so interested in it.
[00:18:33] And it's a whole life style from the beginning to time we get up in the morning until the time we go to sleep.
[00:18:42] It's part it's it encompasses our life where even when we're playing bridge.
[00:18:49] All right something I mean I was when I you mentioned what my my only world championship that I won the mixed pairs and.
[00:19:02] During that world championship.
[00:19:05] There were screens at the table yeah and and during the day one of the things that we have to do as.
[00:19:13] As members of Cabad is to say a number of.
[00:19:20] To heal them or our songs there are 150 songs and I don't have it here there are 150 songs written.
[00:19:30] And I can't even spend my game David and some somebody Moses that go all the way back of 3000 years so we every day there's a portion.
[00:19:44] That's divided it but in the month say there's 30 days and a month that you might say and 150 songs so you might save around five songs a day.
[00:19:54] Right right some of longer days and some of sure today some some days they're longer some days they're shorter and you all right so when I don't have time because we're starting early in the morning playing bridge and finishing late.
[00:20:10] I take my and in pamletas as to we take our book of songs to the to the bridge table.
[00:20:18] Now screens help a lot because you could put the screen goes up and you you're not facing your partner and you could even lean the book against the screen.
[00:20:29] Near the bidding box.
[00:20:32] And when you and when you're when you're done me.
[00:20:36] You have time to take it and start mumbling your songs right and and what at the same time you have to keep an ear out for your partner who's calling the cards and you have so that you you pull the right card.
[00:20:51] So so I was doing that near the end of the tournament and then somebody at the end of the tournament which we won.
[00:21:00] A very nice French woman comes over and said, Miss you're good on a better miss you got to have an.
[00:21:06] I wish I wish somebody would pray for me when I play the hand.
[00:21:11] I wish my partner would pray for me but I wasn't really doing that I was just fulfilling my quote of a day.
[00:21:17] I'm probably a religious student he said nothing to do with the bridge.
[00:21:23] So anyway, but you're like I mean you're kind of rare in terms of like high level bridge you and both you and Pam both being has CITIC.
[00:21:33] I mean I remember being an a tournament a regional tournament and going to a service in your room on the Sabbath.
[00:21:42] Yeah that was that that was nice and that's one of the.
[00:21:47] I was traveling but it's a good thing too on Friday night we usually would have a service in our.
[00:21:55] In our room and invited you can't lock the doors like you and then you can't well you can't lose electricity.
[00:22:02] Okay because that's electricity is fought you're not so you're not you can't use fire there are 39 prohibitions during the Sabbath that were all.
[00:22:12] So things that you you they did when they were.
[00:22:19] Building the tab andacle in the desert that that the Jewish people did while they were building the tab andacle between the time.
[00:22:26] Getting out of Egypt and the 40 years in the desert to to get to Israel to get to the land of Israel.
[00:22:34] And during that time there was a building of a.
[00:22:36] I could travel in tab andacle and the 40 different.
[00:22:44] Jogs that are used to like like hammering or or making a fire etc.
[00:22:51] Are the prohibitions that we don't that we we have for the.
[00:22:57] For Sabbath so when you go to a hotel room you have an electric key so electricity is out.
[00:23:05] So so it's a problem especially if the door if the door is locked one time I was at a tournament by myself.
[00:23:16] And and I was at a tournament by myself and I had a friend who was and I couldn't get into my.
[00:23:24] And the key was I had put in the fire you know there's a little fire extinguisher.
[00:23:32] Come in I don't know if you notice this in hotel robby hotel floors you always see a couple fire extinguishes in a glass case.
[00:23:43] Okay and before before shop is before sat that Sabbath before shop is we put the key in there.
[00:23:51] So we would have it after shop is just in case all right to get back in the room at the end of at the end of the day on on Saturday.
[00:24:01] So but sometimes the maid would come by and we would try to get the maid to open the door for us with the key because we couldn't do it.
[00:24:12] But there's a prohibition also to ask somebody else to do it.
[00:24:18] All right you're not allowed there's no such thing as a shop is going so to speak you're not allowed to ask somebody do it because he's not because it says in that press even neither you know your servant or your friend.
[00:24:32] Nobody is allowed to do it for you okay so it requires some finesse because you have to if somebody is around you who's not Jewish and you and you're able to get that person.
[00:24:48] To open the door for you you try to you try to get the person to do it without directly asking them.
[00:24:57] So I often say I often say hi I somebody passes the door and I want to get and I say hi hi you want to come in for a drink.
[00:25:08] You know I start out that way.
[00:25:12] All right, but I don't ask them to do it so at this on this one occasion I had a friend who was three.
[00:25:21] Three doors down and I I honestly didn't know if he was Jewish or not and I said by the way.
[00:25:29] I was going into his room three doors down I said are you by the way I always wanted to know are you Jewish and he said well my father was but not my mother.
[00:25:43] Now and the Jewish religion it has to be the mother Jewish so I said that's that's interesting.
[00:25:51] You want to have a drink I wanted to discuss that.
[00:25:54] He said sure and he comes over he said but I I can't get in my room because I said I'm not allowed to open the door.
[00:26:02] Because of because of shoppers but I didn't ask him to.
[00:26:06] I just said I'm not allowed to he said oh well do it any either.
[00:26:11] So that's how I got in that time.
[00:26:13] Got it.
[00:26:13] So how did you remember that?
[00:26:15] Well I mean it's probably like the only Jewish religious ceremony I've been to my life.
[00:26:20] So again it was it was a hotel room that a bridge started but it was pretty pretty experience.
[00:26:30] So we have also some people in a Friday night but that's that that's been that's been actually not not a while we were either regional in Orlando this year and we did that also.
[00:26:44] You got a service.
[00:26:46] Yeah regional yeah during well because that's part of it you have to have that service.
[00:26:51] You sort of like it's called Kiddish and you you sanctify the Sabbath by having saying a few prayers in drinking wine and saying the 20th or so and a couple things.
[00:27:04] Yeah it was funny because I grew up in the Piscopeia in church and so it was actually like a lot of it was familiar to me which was a surprise for me.
[00:27:16] Right because one one.
[00:27:19] They each religion takes it right takes a part of something what's a Piscopeia in.
[00:27:25] It's like it's a Protestant religion so I've heard that it's like very close to Catholicism we went to church just my mother sort of I didn't like going but we went we were we had to go as children and then like two of the schools that I went to also had had chapel and so.
[00:27:48] Yeah I don't really know how to describe it again.
[00:27:52] No no yeah I end up but I have empathy for you I didn't like going either when I was a boy to send it to God and unless you like.
[00:28:07] We're on thing learn about it and it's just like anything else who would like to play bridge if you didn't learn anything about it.
[00:28:15] Yeah right if you were just throwing cards it wouldn't be anything right but you say you have to learn about it to what to and get into it to do something anything.
[00:28:25] But you voted to it I mean like if anybody you know can't tell just based on the story that you just told I mean like you know it's an inconvenience for sure like.
[00:28:35] For example with this just I'm not saying that it's an inconvenience as a whole but you know not being able to you know having to work around your hotel room key.
[00:28:45] I've heard stories about you and Pamela your wife.
[00:28:50] You know doing a comparison in a knockout match and you neither of you were able to write down this course.
[00:28:56] Right right right basically for years of the years I would play I would still I would.
[00:29:05] I would play on Sabbath which wasn't really that a it was only kosher technically.
[00:29:15] Okay it wasn't kosher in the spirit of set shots it wasn't kosher and I've I've tried to reduce that and not and not do that anymore if I can help it.
[00:29:26] But sometimes there'll be a van der Budo Spingo and then it reaches that Saturday.
[00:29:32] Yeah that's good that's a good thing to have that's a good problem.
[00:29:36] That's a problem that would be a good problem when it reaches that as long as it doesn't start out right right so I've had ups and downs about this.
[00:29:47] I definitely can know I've been I've sort of been outstead from the from the in recent years from the US BF United States Bridge Federation tournaments because they're using electronics.
[00:30:04] Yeah instead of cards.
[00:30:06] So using electronics I can I can possibly compete overshobbers with maybe I could convince them to.
[00:30:16] Make make Saturday an off day or something like that but then they don't want to because then it can be in each other people.
[00:30:26] Yeah, right so anyway that's alright that's the way it is.
[00:30:34] But it's right right where you said is right we couldn't it that was I always feel a little embarrassed about that about having to keep score without.
[00:30:45] Without writing in the scores and.
[00:30:50] It's not the way to do it right so your primary bridge partner is your wife and you says you matter on you matter at a at the Olympiad at a bridge tournament in another one.
[00:31:06] Yeah I was.
[00:31:10] Oh that was in 1980.
[00:31:15] 19.
[00:31:16] No, 19.
[00:31:19] Yeah, 1980 was an Olympiad in the Netherlands and in some obscure town in the Netherlands.
[00:31:28] It was called a.
[00:31:33] Valkenburg VAL KEN BU or G.
[00:31:36] Valkenburg Netherlands and.
[00:31:40] What had happened was that tournament the American team the ACEs goes to the.
[00:31:50] French team in the final all right and I because of the rules in those.
[00:32:01] I was a.
[00:32:02] There was a rule about how you had were able to compete in the trials for the North American team.
[00:32:14] Yeah that are different from the rules today today anybody can compete it's completely open.
[00:32:20] And those days you had to qualify by achieving certain good results in in the American tournament so over the year.
[00:32:28] Right.
[00:32:30] And the ACEs were made up of Bobby Wolfen Bobby Hammond.
[00:32:38] And Fred Hamilton and I were Rubin who was also had a nickname the beast did you know I were Rubin?
[00:32:47] No no and.
[00:32:51] Mike Bassell and Paul Soloway.
[00:32:55] And that was the that was the team in the Olympiad.
[00:33:01] However, however they switched partnerships in the Olympiad and Mike Bassell played with Fred Hamilton and I were Rubin played with Soloway.
[00:33:14] For reasons that they were in the Olympiad you play against a lot of teams to qualify for the final and you have to not only beat the.
[00:33:24] We could teams you have to score very high.
[00:33:28] In each match you have to you have to but's blitz them right to keep on top and Soloway and and Rubin were the were a blitz pair they could completely.
[00:33:45] Score score score well against against a weaker pair.
[00:33:50] So so but what I was saying was what happened was that for the next.
[00:33:57] For 1981 Paul Soloway was in the eligible to play on the team because of the rules because he hadn't won enough points to play on the team.
[00:34:10] And I had and so they're replayed I was this is my this is my one and only time on the aces.
[00:34:19] I got to play on the aces but my partner was I were Rubin the beast okay so I went to Europe to see to watch them play and and at the same time.
[00:34:32] Suddenly out from the match between the Canadian women and some other team comes this girl who.
[00:34:43] I went wow we've she okay so I go running over I get introduced and but she forget it she's she's busy with her score card she's she's she just came out of 20 hard hands a bridge.
[00:34:59] And she could she said oh she said hello and then just worked right by me still arguing discussing the bridge hands with it with her partner Karen Allison.
[00:35:10] So that was my introduction that was that was my big meeting that was my big that was my big me my real meeting took place.
[00:35:18] She was giving a Toronto a year later a year later and this is how there's something in the Jewish tradition called shithacks a shithack is when you is a matchmaker.
[00:35:32] I'm a matchmaker comes and and matches up to people who might be compatible and they make a shithack but it's very hard to make a shithack as you know because.
[00:35:44] The so many divorces in the world right who how do you do that well.
[00:35:52] Sometimes the only the only being that can make a shithack is God God can God makes the shithack if you're lucky and he finds you the right me so what what God did was.
[00:36:06] He had I don't did you know Alan read a rant from New York no we were these were this was Sam's statements sister law and brother and law.
[00:36:18] And they were our my clients in New York we would play bridge all the time and they came to me in April and said our accountant told us that if we're out of the country.
[00:36:33] On April 15th we could save a lot of money with our taxes okay but so I said so while you tell me he said we're going to go we have to find the bridge to him and outside the country.
[00:36:48] I said okay so we found the Toronto regional okay.
[00:36:54] We're during April 15th so I go up to the Toronto regional now we go to Pamela's side Pamela's side Pamela after the world championship after discussing hands and after her whole experience and this she would go to the bar at night and she would listen to the Irish team discuss bridge hands and.
[00:37:17] She would say to herself I don't know anything about bridge and I'm playing in a world championship these guys are way over me and she came back to Toronto and gave up bridge.
[00:37:28] From that summer all right and she gave up bridge became took a child as a as a systems analyst and that was it now that regional which is three quarters of a year later.
[00:37:43] Her partner Karen Allison accidentally she says accidentally there's nothing accidental books two people two professional dates for the Toronto regional in one day and she's searching and searching and asking people who will play.
[00:38:01] I need one person to play for me and she can't find anyone and then she asked Pamela and Pablo says no I'm working now I don't play bridge anymore and.
[00:38:12] She said come on come on I'll do anything for you and finally she convinces her to come to the tournament so when I enter the room.
[00:38:21] There's Pamela all this had to take place for me with my clients accountant and Karen Allison making two days all this had to take place for me to meet my wife.
[00:38:36] Well and of course I saw her and I go zooming across the room it was like you know and I say hi remember me and she says no.
[00:38:50] She said I'm in bulk of her she said bulk of her and then I said you want to have you want to have a drink or dinner.
[00:38:59] And she says I'll take the dinner and I was it I made a pay anyway I didn't have any Canadian money.
[00:39:09] So on a first date we went to a we went to a bookstore and that was it.
[00:39:16] From then on.
[00:39:18] Did you buy a book for the other one or did you buy a book for yourself with the other one.
[00:39:22] I I board her a book on capitalism and she brought gave me a book on socialism.
[00:39:29] Wow.
[00:39:30] All right because I was a capitalist and she was a socialist.
[00:39:35] Today we're both capitalist.
[00:39:38] Nothing to do with that just just that you grow up and you grow out of socialism.
[00:39:44] Yeah.
[00:39:46] That's a good story man.
[00:39:48] Yeah.
[00:39:50] Anyway, oh so then what happened to us?
[00:39:54] So so after we're in New York and we go to the stock exchange and all that because everybody's going to the stock exchange you've heard of all the rich boys who went to the stock exchange in those days.
[00:40:05] And those days and we got tired of it and we decided my wife loved Virginia wolf.
[00:40:13] And all her writings to the lighthouse everything and Virginia wolf had a husband and they had their own publishing company.
[00:40:24] So I said, well, if we want to have a family.
[00:40:28] We can't go trouncing around to bridge tournaments all the time.
[00:40:32] We have to have a base at home.
[00:40:34] So we have to do our bridge for bone.
[00:40:37] So we decided to start our own bridge book publishing company and magazine and that worked that worked that excellently.
[00:40:49] It was a miracle.
[00:40:50] I don't know how it worked.
[00:40:52] So she got into bridge again once once she met you at this.
[00:40:56] Yeah, that was at that time I was also into the theater world because I had gone back to school at Hunter and gotten a Manchester's degree in Children's Theatre.
[00:41:07] And I was writing little children's theater musicals at Hunter College.
[00:41:13] However, even when I met Pamela and she came to New York, however, when Pamela got her eye on all the actresses that I was hanging around with.
[00:41:24] She said, no, I think we should.
[00:41:26] I think we should stick to bridge.
[00:41:30] And she got she immediately got a job as a house player at the cabin dish.
[00:41:36] And I and I had to and I quit the theater world.
[00:41:43] Eventually and eventually not not quite but eventually and then and then that was that common interest and then we ended up ended up using theater and writing by being a writer and publisher.
[00:41:57] Yeah, as well which is part of the art of writing and everything.
[00:42:03] As you know.
[00:42:06] Right. Yeah.
[00:42:07] So it all came it all came out well and we were able to have a family and when we was sitting within her with a friend in.
[00:42:23] And in Philadelphia, I'll try to remember his name.
[00:42:28] But he told us, this was around 19.
[00:42:37] He the this person told us that you know, you can go to is we were discussing moving to Israel possibly and you know the person said, you know, you can do that now because there's a new thing called the internet.
[00:42:49] And you'll be able to publish through the internet and we didn't know much about it.
[00:42:57] It was just starting and he convinced us and and we ended up bringing our magazine to is and publishing our magazine in and books in America from Israel.
[00:43:13] He was right. We were able to do that to some degree.
[00:43:16] And and that's how we ended up combining combining the two and having a family at the same time and Pamela gave up shouldn't give up bridge completely because there was Israeli bridge.
[00:43:33] But basically to ornaments she had to give up for 20 years to help raise the family to raise children.
[00:43:40] So because you can't always be away from the children a week at a time.
[00:43:45] So would you come back to the United States for the national. I would come I would come back most she came back once or twice I came back several times to play in America.
[00:43:56] And I was the first person to work on BBO on BBO in 19 in 2000 maybe the year was yeah the year was 1999 and we were living in the Tanya we have Kathy way I put us.
[00:44:16] And and when we got and I got an invitation to play on a triose team with Ronnie Rubin who was a long time partner in New York.
[00:44:30] And Ronnie you know Ronnie Rubin yes yeah and we didn't know how we're going to practice but Fred Giddellman who was a friend of Ronis said you practice on my new invention bridge based online.
[00:44:44] So we so I was sitting in an apartment overlooking the Mediterranean and he was Ronnie was in Las Vegas and we both got online and we got on BBO something called BBO and there were only three people.
[00:45:01] You know how you come online now there's 4,000, 4000 players 8,000 there were three people on BBO and Fred took us Fred me and Ronnie and he said he took us to the building room he directed us where we could bid and practice our system on BBO long distance is Ronis.
[00:45:24] The B's son. Huh is Ron the B's son. Ron no no no he has no no regression he's not related to our room.
[00:45:34] No no different Rubin right different Rubin family right right hey that's interesting that I played both with both the Rubins right right I didn't realize that right.
[00:45:46] I think of the people by their first name open and that is second name right so it all comes together and the strangest things and I'm trying to write a book about my life because the strange thing about the world of bridge and the world of of Judaism is that there's a lot in common.
[00:46:11] People don't realize it the way we became religious again was really was initially through patty cane.
[00:46:22] Now patty cane was Jimmy is Jimmy King's wife.
[00:46:25] And now is a dear friend for 50 years with us and right before we decided maybe right when we moved up state which was about 1988 we moved up state patty cane invited was playing bridge with my wife and talking about the Bible.
[00:46:53] And my wife was was cringing and I was good we all we all thought the patty had lost a little bit of our bonobos right she's talking about what had happened was she had seen.
[00:47:07] And I was talking about a Holocaust survivor rabbit rabbit's wife on TV in New York and was enamored with her.
[00:47:15] And brought her to our house and and to earn to her together and the next thing you know she had 40 park Avenue women coming every week to the women's class in her own apartment.
[00:47:27] And she invited when when she was playing bridge with Pamela in Washington DC she was talking in between hands oh you see when I play the two instead of the four.
[00:47:40] It's same thing and Hebrew if you play if you do this letter instead of that letter it changes the meaning of it in the order that you do it and she and then.
[00:47:51] My wife's listening but she still not convinced you know so so I was a closet a closet orthodox because I I had had a little of it when I was a kid.
[00:48:05] And and and patty came said you have to come down from from Albany and and come to one of my classes and so Pamela went to one of our classes and met this.
[00:48:23] And that's the first thing he did was when she saw my wife she grabbed her by her face and said I love you.
[00:48:35] because she had immediate chemistry together.
[00:48:39] The next thing, that's a good opening.
[00:48:41] That's always you like somebody who does that.
[00:48:45] So that's a good way to make friends.
[00:48:48] I mean, potentially it could be a little disturbing also.
[00:48:52] Right, it depends.
[00:48:53] As long as you know the person.
[00:48:55] Yeah, she said that.
[00:48:57] That he can't have.
[00:48:58] I can see the other side of it.
[00:48:59] But right, right, right.
[00:49:00] I can see that too, right, right.
[00:49:02] But she gave a whole lecture about the portion
[00:49:05] and the Bible in the Torah where you were Rachel.
[00:49:14] And where Jacob goes to work for his future father-in-law
[00:49:18] to Mary Rachel.
[00:49:20] He works for several years and he's going to marry Rachel.
[00:49:23] And then when he goes to the wedding canopy,
[00:49:29] there's a veil.
[00:49:30] And he ends up the father gives him Leah
[00:49:33] and stead the older daughter instead of Rachel,
[00:49:36] even though he had agreed.
[00:49:38] You're going to give Rachel.
[00:49:42] So what happened in the, I guess they kept the veil on
[00:49:49] because he didn't know it wasn't Rachel.
[00:49:53] OK.
[00:49:55] He even thought it was Rachel.
[00:49:57] So what happened was that before that, just to make the story
[00:50:06] clear, Rachel tells Jacob before the wedding
[00:50:13] that you know that my father might bring Leah.
[00:50:19] All right.
[00:50:19] So and I'll be covered up.
[00:50:21] Yeah.
[00:50:21] So we'll have a code.
[00:50:23] OK.
[00:50:24] And you'll ask me the code and I'll answer under the,
[00:50:29] under the wedding canopy.
[00:50:31] OK.
[00:50:32] And that's how you'll know it's me.
[00:50:35] OK.
[00:50:36] He said that was the arrangement.
[00:50:39] So he under the wedding canopy, he goes and he asks,
[00:50:43] and Leah gives the answer to the code.
[00:50:48] Rachel sister Leah knows the answer because Rachel told Leah
[00:50:54] her sister the, what sort of she double crossed Jacob
[00:51:02] and told the answer to her.
[00:51:05] And the reason she told the answer was because she,
[00:51:09] it would be so embarrassing for her sister if he,
[00:51:12] if there was a wedding going on and suddenly he realized
[00:51:16] it wasn't her, the right woman and he left the wedding canopy.
[00:51:20] And he, she didn't want her sister to be embarrassed.
[00:51:23] So she was willing to give up her husband so that her sister
[00:51:26] wouldn't be embarrassed.
[00:51:28] Well this story had such an effect on my wife Pamela
[00:51:33] because we were brought up with a secular idea
[00:51:37] that you're a good person if you don't hurt anyone.
[00:51:41] That's it.
[00:51:42] That's all you have to do.
[00:51:43] Just don't, if you don't hurt anyone, you're good.
[00:51:46] We didn't know you actually had to go
[00:51:49] the extra mile and give up your husband just so that your brother
[00:51:54] or sister isn't embarrassed.
[00:51:57] Right?
[00:51:58] Which was there, which was Rachel's ethic.
[00:52:02] Yeah.
[00:52:04] Anyway, if going back to the Bible,
[00:52:06] we worked out all right in the Bible because
[00:52:09] Jacob got to work for another seven years
[00:52:12] and got Rachel anyway also.
[00:52:15] In those days you can marry more than one.
[00:52:19] So but anyway that was how she got Pamela
[00:52:24] got captured by it by the kindness
[00:52:29] that by the story of the kindness that was from Rachel and Laya.
[00:52:35] And maybe you would think maybe that's not so
[00:52:38] kind of Jacob, but Jacob could handle it.
[00:52:43] He was a man.
[00:52:45] It's the woman that can sometimes can handle it.
[00:52:48] You know if you know what I mean.
[00:52:51] Men can take punches, women don't take punches.
[00:52:56] Well, sad about it.
[00:52:57] To pause our conversation.
[00:52:58] And I share in the Olympics.
[00:53:00] Okay, right.
[00:53:02] Okay, well pause now and we'll talk some more sometime.
[00:53:06] So you see you, you asked me a question, John,
[00:53:08] and it brings out a lot of memories after a member
[00:53:12] everything.
[00:53:14] All right.
[00:53:15] Anyway, I hope this is what this worked out
[00:53:17] with what you want.
[00:53:19] Well, I'm just saying it's definitely interesting.
[00:53:21] Yeah, that's for sure.
[00:53:22] Okay, I'm not talking much bridge but a little.
[00:53:25] Now we'll get there and it's the right.
[00:53:28] Ask me next time about Israel because
[00:53:30] because it was our bridge magazine
[00:53:34] and our bridge subscribers in Israel who helped us
[00:53:38] get over the culture shock in Israel.
[00:53:42] Okay, not me of that story amongst others.
[00:53:46] It doesn't matter.
[00:53:46] You can tell me anything.
[00:53:47] Every day there's another story in my life that seems.
[00:53:51] All right, well I'll be in touch.
[00:53:52] Okay, John, I'll let you go.
[00:53:54] I didn't know, I wasn't watching the clock.
[00:53:56] I'll see you later.
[00:53:57] All right. Okay, I'll be in touch.
[00:53:59] Okay, bye.
[00:54:00] Hearing the story of Rachel and how that inspired her
[00:54:05] and subsequently you, I think to really
[00:54:10] become devoted.
[00:54:12] That's right, at that time we were living in Boston,
[00:54:16] Boston, New York, which is between Sarah,
[00:54:20] Tolga and Albany.
[00:54:23] And we had, this is our third or fourth year
[00:54:27] we had water house there.
[00:54:30] And it was in the middle of nowhere
[00:54:31] and it was because our friend's fall in scenty trend had moved
[00:54:35] how to house there in the area near Sarah Tolga
[00:54:41] and somehow we went up to visit them
[00:54:44] and have found a house we liked there.
[00:54:47] I don't know, it was all, it's all later on we found that
[00:54:52] in Cacidus everything is planned out.
[00:54:57] There's no such thing as it, in other words
[00:54:58] we don't believe in such a thing as a coincidence.
[00:55:03] But there's a whole plan, divine plan and then you,
[00:55:09] it's good to actually see the plan
[00:55:13] if you can.
[00:55:14] And everything you do in life, like sometimes you miss the bus
[00:55:18] to work or you miss an airplane or you get stopped in traffic.
[00:55:24] And you have to say to yourself there's a reason for this.
[00:55:28] Sometimes when I'm in traffic I call this traffic control.
[00:55:33] The angels are conducting making sure the cars aren't crashing so
[00:55:38] they had to use you just to put you here too.
[00:55:45] Sometimes things happen and then you don't see
[00:55:51] what is, you don't see the good result from it
[00:55:57] until maybe the next day or a week later or even a year later.
[00:56:02] And then you realize that was good that that happened.
[00:56:06] Even though at first it looked bad.
[00:56:10] Anyway, that's not how we got caught up in it.
[00:56:14] We got caught after my wife came back from New York and Patty
[00:56:19] Kane had a session with all with Rabbi and Rebitson Young
[00:56:25] Grace.
[00:56:26] I mentioned and all the people there and the story of Rachel and Leia
[00:56:32] and how she gave her the, she was conscious her sister to give her the code
[00:56:38] under the canopy they wouldn't she would be embarrassed.
[00:56:42] And we came back and then we had always realized after we had two children
[00:56:48] that there was something that was a stunning thing for us.
[00:56:54] In other words, we realized that it can't just be the door when
[00:56:58] theory that we had two children is something wrong.
[00:57:02] All right, it's too miraculous that you have relations and suddenly you have these children.
[00:57:08] Yeah, all right. And so we started to investigate different branches of Judaism.
[00:57:20] Yeah, first we went to like a, a, a, a, a, a, a different branches is this called a reform movement.
[00:57:28] There's a conservative movement, there's an orthodox movement and there's a chacetic group
[00:57:36] and there's chabad, which is the most famous of the, which is the most popular of the
[00:57:41] chacetic groups. And then there's a million other chacetic groups in in, in Brooklyn.
[00:57:47] But they usually just in Brooklyn or in Israel.
[00:57:51] Chabad is all over the world. So in, so we were very lucky that
[00:57:57] that we rejected the reform and the conservative because like we went to the reform
[00:58:05] and the rabbi was a woman and she was, the kids were running around and the father was praying.
[00:58:12] And it was, it wasn't, there was no order in it, right? We wanted to, I think some kind of order.
[00:58:20] You order, right? So we went to, we also, we also at that time met Dennis Prager.
[00:58:31] I don't know if you know Dennis Prager. No. Dennis Prager is a popular talk show,
[00:58:36] conservative talk show host and he wrote a whole series of weekly things called ultimate issues
[00:58:45] and we started subscribing to it. Yeah. And he was, and he was, and he would bring you in,
[00:58:52] and he was Jewish and he's still around. And he was, he would bring you into the idea of studying
[00:59:02] the Torah and Judaism in a purely logical way, not by faith but by logic.
[00:59:11] For example at that time he used to tell the story, say you were, you were in a dark alley in New York
[00:59:19] city at night and certainly you saw these three big Husky guys walking towards you, right? With,
[00:59:29] with bracelets around their necks and everything. All right? And then would you be happy or not
[00:59:36] to know they had just come from a Bible study? Probably happy. I would think. All right. So there is,
[00:59:42] we're looking, I don't say that religion can't cause bad things, but at that time if you were,
[00:59:49] that was a good, that was a good approach that he made. But he, he made me, he made other
[00:59:54] arguments and things to show that it's a good idea to believe in God. That was his approach.
[01:00:05] And he's an excellent talker. You should go come up. I think he has a whole show
[01:00:12] on the internet now, every, every, he's very prominent. Okay so he goes and prays and
[01:00:19] universe it in him. Anyway, after that we went, we saw an advertisement in an opening newspaper
[01:00:29] that there was going to be a Hanna-Copardi at the, at the, at the, at the, at the Y. Okay.
[01:00:36] Yeah. So it said, it said, Hanna-Copardi run by CHAB, and we said, what's Chabad? Chabad? What is that?
[01:00:48] It's not really Chabad, but it's the gutterl for an ausiation of the CH hubby, right?
[01:00:54] Which you can't write in English. This, all right, you could probably write it in this probably
[01:01:00] in, in maybe German or, for another language. But Chabad, so we didn't know, so we, we called
[01:01:11] up our, we had friends in a conservative school, which is not acidic. And we asked them, what is this?
[01:01:19] What is this CHAB-AD? What is this? They're running a chronic a party, and they said,
[01:01:26] oh, no, no, no, you don't want to go there. They said, I said, why not? You said, oh, they're crazy.
[01:01:33] They're, they're really crazy. All right. They're off being completely. Okay. So of course when
[01:01:41] my wife and I heard that, we said, ah, that's the place for us. We enjoy, we enjoy characters,
[01:01:46] you know, we came from the British world. And who did we like most? But people who were unusual,
[01:01:53] we like to be entertained. So, so we went to that party. And they were right there with their
[01:02:01] cups, they were no forks, they were, they were shot, they were actually had had had soda out,
[01:02:10] you know, Coca-Cola, or we were off that, we were health nuts a little bit. But anyway,
[01:02:18] they were incredibly warm people. And they were the opposite of the Praga idea, they were spiritual.
[01:02:26] They were just totally, totally loving warmth. All right. So we, we made fast friends with them
[01:02:34] and with the family that was the head of the area of Albany. Yeah. And, and we soon started learning
[01:02:43] from them. But our first lesson was remarkable. We went to their house and he, he wanted to teach us
[01:02:52] something about Cacidus, which is a religious version of Caballa. And he took a piece of paper and
[01:03:01] he made a circle and the world and this and then he pointed this way. And then it lasted about one minute.
[01:03:09] And we were going to, and we turned to him and said, we don't know what you're talking about.
[01:03:15] But we know that if we study, we'll learn because what our students do in bridge is they come to us
[01:03:24] and they don't know what we're talking about. Yeah. And bridge when we say to count this and the shape of
[01:03:31] hand and this and that. So we know from being bridge teachers ourselves that we should never reject
[01:03:38] anything because we don't understand at the beginning. We have to learn it and study it to understand it.
[01:03:48] So that was lucky that we came from the bridge world and from the bridge teaching world
[01:03:54] so that we knew to be humble about how to learn about Cacidus. And we're now
[01:04:05] prolonging this, so we eventually studied and learned and joined with their philosophy.
[01:04:16] And but then the next thing we knew in 1993, we had somebody not Cacidus,
[01:04:25] somebody had a lecture they called it a lunch and learned at a synagogue and they were talking
[01:04:30] about Mitsphis which was, Mitsphi is something, it's a good deed that you do that God commands
[01:04:37] you to do like give Ceducca, like give money to charity and is one of hundreds but but
[01:04:48] we were discussing by monities who was a philosopher. Monities determined yes it is one of the
[01:04:54] Mitsphis and we looked at each other and said well that's one of the Mitsphis we should
[01:05:00] why don't we do it? We should move to Israel now this is it. So you see I don't know how we got that
[01:05:07] idea, how we took that idea and ran with it but it must have been implanted on us because who would say
[01:05:17] to that right? But we were young and idealistic you know what I mean and we said we have to go
[01:05:25] we have to go okay so I investigated and then that's what I told you that Cacidus was a
[01:05:39] an intelligent and that's how we ended up going as a pilot trip to Israel and then we ended up
[01:05:49] going even though you did has nothing to do with being Cacidic to go to Israel in fact most of
[01:05:56] most of the we learned later that most of the people who are Cacidic in Le Babbage,
[01:06:03] the Babbage is another word for Hobad because Bobbitch is the city in Europe where
[01:06:09] where it came from in the 18th century. Well most of them have the philosophy of
[01:06:19] not necessarily to move to Israel there are a lot of there is a logical about in Israel but
[01:06:25] therefore the main philosophy is wherever you are make Israel there. In other words make
[01:06:34] make where you live a place of holiness and then on top of that make your home a holy home
[01:06:46] all right and on top of that there's something in the Bible that says
[01:06:53] God says you shall have you shall have you shall make a tab and a heckle this is talking to the
[01:07:07] people in the desert and make it holy but what it really means on the caulistic or
[01:07:13] Cacidic level is you shall make your mind your body yourself is your tab and a heckle
[01:07:20] and you should make yourself work on yourself and work on your character traits and work on
[01:07:27] and by doing that you make the world better just by starting with yourself so that's when anyone
[01:07:33] says what should I do to make the world better you know there's so many people who make the world
[01:07:38] better and they end up making the world worse because they have this mission or that mission
[01:07:42] they work on yourself and work on you children that's that go to work on too
[01:07:50] you make yourself better you make the world better so so but so we didn't have to move to Israel
[01:07:56] but of course we moved to Israel and then when we got there there was a note on Hadjaer in the
[01:08:04] Tanya apartment do it said hi my name is Sarah Worthheimer I lived down the block and I
[01:08:12] subscribed to your bridge magazine and if you come to me I'll help you with all your all your
[01:08:18] to get around town and everything and do everything for you and we did and she was a great
[01:08:24] help so that's that's one connection with bridge our bridge magazine
[01:08:30] and the subscriber helped us find help us with with life in Israel
[01:08:38] here's how she helped us she she would take us to the
[01:08:44] municipality and she spoke for when he wrote we didn't speak at all well so she she would
[01:08:53] say they need electricity they didn't in their apartment they need the telephone this or that
[01:08:58] but the way she would do it is for us it sounded like this she would go up to the
[01:09:03] the person in charge and she would say right there they were like coming from you know that's
[01:09:14] what it sounded to us and then they started screaming at each other and then everything quieted down
[01:09:19] she jumped to us and it's all settled so she knew how to deal with all the somewhat communist
[01:09:34] because there's a sort of a communist element that there was then it became more capitalistic
[01:09:40] time run on but we also had a third baby there so so then we were there for 12 years
[01:09:52] and then we at children were coming back here and so and we came back here and that's what happened
[01:09:59] did you become a citizen of Israel? Yeah we became a citizen when we went because you got
[01:10:05] a lot of freebies but we we weren't we we came back because we were on one of the reasons we
[01:10:11] came back is because we were unhappy with the government of Israel as a state we would have
[01:10:20] was spiritual reasons but the government of Israel wasn't protecting their people they were
[01:10:28] doing they were doing old we never understood the god we luckily we never really were into
[01:10:33] Hebrew to Israel and Hebrew well because otherwise we we would have been listening to all sorts
[01:10:40] of terrible things because on the news because this constant news they all the time that
[01:10:45] Israel is love to listen to the news shows best and as you could see they never solved the problem
[01:10:53] yeah between between the I hate to call them Palestinians because my mother and father were
[01:11:06] Palestinians they moved to Israel in 1948 and came back a year later but but they called all
[01:11:16] all the Jewish people in Israel were all Palestinians then because it was named Palestine by the
[01:11:24] Romans two thousand years ago so there was no Arab group called the Palestinians they took
[01:11:33] that name from from the Jewish people and called themselves Palestinians so now in general
[01:11:40] people think Palestinians are them and we and versus the Jews but know the Jews were well-Palestinians
[01:11:49] Spengorian was a Palestinian I'm reading a book that it was written in 1970 all about
[01:11:56] all about Israel and really about how how Israel was how how Americans helped
[01:12:07] with all the airplanes and arms that went to Israel in 1948 to win the war in 1948
[01:12:17] and the book the entire book never all calls every Israeli a Palestinian
[01:12:26] they don't say these rallies it only became the Israelis versus the Palestinians when
[01:12:31] Harraf had took the name of of Palestine that he was a Palestinian of course he was never a Palestinian
[01:12:37] he was a he was Egyptian but but all the so that's a long story I don't want to
[01:12:45] go ahead and we need to go into all these politics but but if you look at history it's all stupid
[01:12:52] Israel was supposed to be the homeland of the Jewish people and then and then all these workers
[01:12:59] came in in 1948 49 50 all these migrants came in and they suddenly got a leader in 1975 80 maybe 80
[01:13:12] of this horrible guy named Harrafat and he they created a whole new culture claiming that they
[01:13:21] were never there they were just they were for the last 20 years but the whole thing is silly because
[01:13:28] because the the government of Israel has never figured out how to how to handle the situation so
[01:13:41] I mean I don't know what to say I don't want to okay we'll move on I'll say this I'll say this
[01:13:50] they should have their own place and a in a in a in a in a there's this mill if you see a map
[01:13:58] you should have their own place somewhere in the middle he's typically one or it can have it in
[01:14:03] Kentucky or wherever they want but there shouldn't be an it shouldn't be one spot in Israel
[01:14:09] where there's an group of people teaching their children to kill Jews that's stupid beyond belief
[01:14:17] right you can't have an enclave of people smack in the middle of your state or country
[01:14:26] that that are taught to destroy the country it's just done beyond beyond belief but with politics and
[01:14:36] everything and we won't go I guess if we can go into the deep state now okay good all right good
[01:14:45] we're going to bridge one you started out initially we started out this conversation with Kathy
[01:14:52] way yeah and you talked about it like how she helped you go to Israel but like more more like
[01:14:59] what was just the like your father was a professional bridge player you are obviously a good player
[01:15:05] at this time when you're kibits and Kathy you know did you start you started she hired you to be
[01:15:12] a partner you were a teacher like what was the right right she had she has been CC way had teams
[01:15:21] he invented the precision club and he had teams and also I was friends with Ronnie Rubin from childhood
[01:15:31] and he was he was working down on Wall Street I was 22 years old so he called me up one day and said
[01:15:40] you want to play the Vanderbilt which is a big knockout in the spring and he was working for Sam
[01:15:50] Stamin a company called Strand which was an investment company and they said they were looking
[01:15:59] for a partner at the him so he knew me and he said I'll play with you and Sam will play with Victor Mitchell
[01:16:06] and Johnny Crawford will play with John Salad okay and I said great when he said we have to
[01:16:14] practice it we had started to play precision already so we started we made our version of precision
[01:16:22] and we would meet in Chinatown near where he worked and we would be at hands and the best way
[01:16:33] to do to practice is always to bit hands especially if you're planning to play a complicated
[01:16:40] system and you want to be comfortable and used to what you're doing it's like hitting the ball against
[01:16:46] the wall you have to hit the ball against the wall of tennis a thousand times to be comfortable
[01:16:53] and we would meet in Chinatown and CC way would come down
[01:16:59] and meet us at the restaurant and he would teach us how to he would give us
[01:17:05] he would make us practice he had strips of hands that would practice as then he told us how to do it
[01:17:11] with a deck of cards you just take out the two trees and fours and you two hands and then
[01:17:19] and he also told us how to use chopsticks properly we get wrong he actually put the food in the
[01:17:27] rice ball we took the food and put it in the rice ball and then ate from the rice ball
[01:17:32] got it was his strong with CC way a strong player or no he was it was an average player but
[01:17:41] he but he was but he was smart but like in the blue team already play like the
[01:17:51] strong then they already play strong club like how is it different the blue team you know blue team
[01:17:55] the the the the the human the aces team now i mean the time blue team they played they played
[01:18:01] Italian the Italian team played the played there's three different versions of strong club
[01:18:08] the blue they play in Gorotso played the blue team club and then Deladana played some other version
[01:18:14] and then's Papas teachy and his partner played some other version but they were so they were the
[01:18:22] first people playing strong club yeah then CC way it invented a simpler strong club
[01:18:32] that anybody could pick up because the blue team club and their versions were canopy you open to
[01:18:43] etc but CC ways was brilliant because it was natural and easy a club a hard should five
[01:18:50] hearts a club the space a five space a club it was it was simple all right and and at that time
[01:18:59] everybody all the average players in New York that I knew took it up and suddenly they could win a
[01:19:13] I thought it was brilliant so anyway we took it up and after that CC way got a team together
[01:19:24] from China and Taiwan some combination and went to the World Championships and came in second
[01:19:31] in the World Championships promoting his system and Alan Trusk got helped him a lot
[01:19:37] he was the writer for the New York Times bridge so what was the what was the what was the
[01:19:45] what was the kind of juice for him in terms of having created this system
[01:19:50] what was the what the juice for him like what but motivated him you think yeah I think he had
[01:19:58] a book by a Chinese player called the the theory of distribution it which I don't know when
[01:20:08] then suddenly he was he brought it to bridge I remember that book it was all about
[01:20:16] what's the chance of this distribution or that distribution and he brought it which he was a great
[01:20:21] I went to his house and he and his friends were there playing Marsha I thought Marsha was a game
[01:20:29] played in the Catskills by Jewish ladies and things but you know crack the band I don't know
[01:20:35] you know Marsha it's a title it was right the way these Chinese were playing it was for money and
[01:20:45] was boom boom boom boom it was like really professional yeah so so he was he was a pretty
[01:20:55] smart and as a games player in general but but and I played with him at the hour of Smith Fair Club
[01:21:06] then I didn't gain several times we would go there and play and he would be he was just it was just
[01:21:18] he was just somebody that people didn't seem to know well because maybe because he I don't know why
[01:21:25] Kathy maybe because Kathy out shown him she was she was glamorous and he was sort of in the background
[01:21:33] did you ever win that imp came one time with him yeah he was so excited
[01:21:46] question oh you've won a world championship the mixed pairs and you've also won the spindle
[01:21:58] would are those your two biggest biggest wins and that's a serily yeah
[01:22:11] the spindle was easy I don't know why we just floated through the whole week and we were never
[01:22:17] down in any quarter wow it was amazing well we had a Dutch a Dutch trio and me rustic
[01:22:25] laden Ronnie Rubin and for some reason it was just it just worked easy I don't know why but
[01:22:35] but the and the mixed pairs was another story I was playing with Karen McCallum and she had just
[01:22:42] gotten over cancer and we both there we didn't have a partner so we played and then wow
[01:22:50] and then again again as you know in bridge the best way to win is for your opponent's
[01:22:57] to full yeah mistakes so our opponents were very cooperative and made a million mistakes
[01:23:07] so so that was good but my first exciting win was the Lansia Cup when I was 25
[01:23:16] yeah there was a there was a tour of four cities in the United States where the
[01:23:26] Italian champions would come with Omar Sharif and they challenged a team in each city
[01:23:35] and if you beat them the prize was a Lansia car right so so this was a promotion by the Lansia
[01:23:44] Italian airline so we represented the New York first we had to win some one day Swiss which was
[01:23:54] a miraculous also right because only the team can win and I was playing with Ronnie Rubin
[01:24:02] and Peter White cell was playing with Alan Santig and we were all in our 20s
[01:24:11] and so we met we went to play and we met Omar and you know we were all chommed by him
[01:24:18] and everything and that was the most exciting tournament I'll tell you my favorite story which
[01:24:28] about Omar okay please yeah absolutely Omar I hope everybody knows Omar
[01:24:35] he was a famous actor hey guys did you see did you see funny girl or his famous role was with
[01:24:46] it was in what's the Russian Civil War novel Dr. Shabaga yeah that was his best right
[01:25:03] so this was right after that and he was very famous but he loved he loved oh this is the story
[01:25:09] that you told on sorry partner about the uh about the note at the table yeah oh did I tell
[01:25:16] that already okay so I kept the other podcast
[01:25:23] sorry alright well anyway anyway okay I won't tell it but Omar had started playing badly
[01:25:32] towards the end of the match because he got a note if you're the punchline right now from
[01:25:37] a woman who was waiting it wasn't clear to me whether oh who loved one they fooled horse racing
[01:25:46] bridge acting and women which one he liked what water maybe it was even 20%
[01:25:56] we used to go to a tournament he would have his own chef well we went to the hay
[01:26:01] and I played with Z in the hay in 1880 7 or something Omar was there and he had his
[01:26:10] he brought his own chef to the tournament to cook food after the session so it so he could
[01:26:17] chat about the hands with everybody and he called me food how did you become how do you
[01:26:22] handle it becomes such good buddies of Zia that was because when we when we first met Pamela and
[01:26:30] I she moved from Canada to New York she would have been living in Canada and that was
[01:26:36] and we had met in the at the in 1980 and in 1980 won the world championships yeah you told
[01:26:46] you told us where in New York okay okay yeah and and the beautiful was in that the
[01:26:59] bemune of all there was this guy Zia and he was the pack of stan team had had won the European
[01:27:06] something and he this guy Zia was there and we became friends with him and that's where and then
[01:27:17] he said he said the pack of stan team needs a coach why don't you be a coach yeah I said well
[01:27:25] I'll be the coach what do they want and he said we'll come to a meeting so we go to the meeting
[01:27:32] and the pack of stan team I never said anything like this they have their that culture you know
[01:27:36] they have no shoes on and they like to hold their foot and they're really oriental and
[01:27:45] and he said what is it that you want most from me as a coach and they said we want to meet the
[01:27:51] available American women
[01:27:58] that's what you want from me this will be you will be the best coach
[01:28:05] were you still in the theater at that time was that was out you delivered theatrical connections at
[01:28:12] that time you said there you said there you said there were beautiful women in the theater
[01:28:19] I said were you still in the theater at that time no no they were they for them they wanted
[01:28:25] the beautiful women at the British tournament and the playing in the women's championship
[01:28:29] in my experience there aren't usually too many beautiful women in the women's championship
[01:28:37] not nor are they be careful the men in the European and the people nor are they generally
[01:28:43] you know the men have big stomachs in the women no but I think they're all they're all to me
[01:28:51] they're all beautiful but but and as you grow older they even will be beautiful
[01:28:57] but but but the pack of stan team was excited and they actually reached the final in that tournament
[01:29:08] right and that was the first World Championship from next to us in Ridewell
[01:29:13] that they won and but they were angry with us at first that I we we were the so-called coaches
[01:29:24] but they didn't realize that we were coaching them with anything about bridge
[01:29:30] so how are you as a matchman we're just telling me this woman is married no
[01:29:39] that's how we became friends and then he moved to New York and wanted to get into the big
[01:29:45] money game yeah with jack drive biz and built in the Petri and all people with millions of
[01:29:55] dollars and they were playing for ten cents up what no they were playing for a dollar point right
[01:30:01] CEO was a rubber bridge player and he was friends with also with Michael Rosenberg who also moved
[01:30:07] at that time to New York and we were very close to Michael and although we didn't understand
[01:30:15] what he was saying a lot of the time because his English was so Scottish but but we we ended up on
[01:30:22] the stock American stock exchange because of Michael was not wanted us on his EGT was kind and
[01:30:34] he just wanted to play rubber bridge in the big game so we introduced him to a screenberg and
[01:30:45] Jimmy Kane and he worked his way into the game and he was very happy because he could make a living
[01:30:54] in New York when he was in New York and he got an apartment in truck town he was very happy
[01:31:01] so that's how we became friends he has to say he sent me his last book he sends me got
[01:31:07] he sent by email I have to check out this and if that to this do that he likes to
[01:31:15] involve everybody in his books and his programs but and he didn't have to be on believe right
[01:31:24] didn't Pietro Campanelli work for your bridge magazine in Israel bridge today
[01:31:31] Pietro Campanelli is a ringry suspect yeah yeah yeah yeah no but he gave us a lot of advice and
[01:31:38] six m-migry played with my wife some and he and he visited and we and we socialize with it to
[01:31:46] them and he helped I think he helped develop a strong our strong club
[01:31:57] a bit he was giving advice from his experience well you know him yeah yeah yeah and I
[01:32:04] think I remember when I first because I played with migry for a period of time and I think
[01:32:08] I thought I remember him saying that he wrote for a bridge magazine in Israel that I thought was
[01:32:13] oh he also wrote for bridge today right yeah yeah of course of course yeah yeah he was a wonderful
[01:32:20] he also helped us to modify our spaghetti sauce he was he was very upset with
[01:32:29] we after the after the pasta was called that was a rinsing no don't rinse the pasta
[01:32:40] so we learned a lot from him besides bridge you gave us a good second good source
[01:32:53] were you going to say something else so there was there's I got an email so the
[01:32:59] reason that I just reached out about interviewing you which was a while ago is because I got an
[01:33:04] out from a felony Michael botland who's a bridge player you know him probably and I don't
[01:33:11] recognize the name Michael botland yeah so he said he suggested that you talk about CC way and
[01:33:21] our Roth but he said he's more interested in hearing where you are right now
[01:33:30] with some of your ideas and theory including he was very impressed by obvious ship signaling
[01:33:35] concept but your most recent book didn't refer to it at all and he's also interested in your
[01:33:42] system oh well the bus system was based on a system when I was when I was 20 years old
[01:33:53] that Dave could came over my house and taught us how told us how the Italian system was wrong
[01:34:02] that they were treating singleton's like kings they would cube it a king or they would cube it
[01:34:09] a king is so different from a singleton because you might make a cube it and your partner has a
[01:34:16] screen jack fifth yeah and in one case you have five tricks and in other case you have a singleton
[01:34:20] opposite the a-screen jack fifth right so he said we have to do away with that and he had developed
[01:34:26] a system so so Ronnie and I adopted his system which became a system called the ultimate club
[01:34:36] and he Ronnie was very successful and and one a couple a number of American championships in a
[01:34:43] world championship with with with my backer playing the system right and and then Gus is is a more
[01:34:53] Gus I played mainly with my wife and that was a system that was also developed with Ronnie Rubin
[01:35:05] later on and bait which was a I guess it was a simpler version than then the previous one
[01:35:13] and what it was is that if one hand is the captain and one hand is the crew so the captain
[01:35:23] would ask questions with the big hand and the crew would tell his exact shape and strength
[01:35:31] and so forth this was all we did this even in the at the very beginning with with Dave Cook system
[01:35:37] back in back in years ago but it became um we just made it more sophisticated when we realized
[01:35:49] and simpler when we realized that it's the balance hand in general that wants to hear
[01:35:55] from the distribution of hand not the other way around because the distribution of hand here's
[01:36:01] from the balance hand you don't know what's opposite you're single to right but if the balance
[01:36:07] hand knows the single to his in clubs or hearts or diamonds he can look and it's suit and he knows just
[01:36:12] like a splinter bit it makes sense so so that's the Gus system and when we tried to decomp make
[01:36:19] different compartments and make it we made a number of folks on it but but it didn't really take
[01:36:26] off and it's really too hard for the the average player right but it's but it's great fun
[01:36:34] to play and I played it with we played it with some other people we played it with Joanne
[01:36:43] I played it with Joanne as stands for he successfully and I played it I just played one time
[01:36:50] we'd still be a she and we were second in the blue ribbon and we played it she she was able to learn it
[01:37:01] quickly and and I played it with Rossac Brad but he also wanted to play canopy with it so we had to
[01:37:08] change it and we did very well with him I did very well with him playing a similar system and
[01:37:16] it's great it's fun because if you're bidding and you know your partner shape it's so exciting
[01:37:24] to be able to figure out where should we play that hand and where should we place the final
[01:37:30] country so okay so you asked me about that what did you ask me about before that obvious shift
[01:37:36] was something was a book that mainly Pamela wrote when we were living in Israel and all it did
[01:37:47] was was you know how you read a suit against a contract and your partner gives you can only give
[01:37:54] you two signals a high one or a low one right there's this is no way you could do three signals
[01:38:00] this usually high low so high means continue in traditional and traditional methods high is
[01:38:08] continue and low is shift but but what does low mean to shift to which suit do you shift to when
[01:38:21] when I was playing with one of my dad's cronies when I was when I was 15 years old
[01:38:29] at the duplicate in West Orange New Jersey I remember a hand where he he led a card against
[01:38:38] the suit contract dummy had ace king jack fourth and I had queen third behind it and the
[01:38:46] clariplade the ace and I played low instead of playing encouraging okay when he got back in
[01:38:54] he shifted to dummy's weak suit three little away from his king and I didn't have anything to
[01:39:00] help and he he was so upset at me you know you said he took the card he took my from my queen third
[01:39:14] he took the middle card out of my hand it said this is what you play tell me you want me to continue
[01:39:21] you don't tell me to shift all right so I always remembered that that was a lesson and sometimes
[01:39:31] when dummy has ace king jack fourth and you have three little you also encourage partner to shift
[01:39:38] to continue why would you ask for as partner to continue from the ace dummy has ace king jack
[01:39:44] fourth and you have three little you each go it goes ace and you say please continue why because
[01:39:50] in the other student dummy has as three little and you have three little and you don't want him to
[01:39:55] shift to that suit right because that suit the three little suit dummy is called the obvious shift
[01:40:02] so this the obvious shift system goes way back to the beginning of bridge there's nothing new about it
[01:40:09] it's just using your brain using don't just signal in the suit that you that was glad but signal
[01:40:18] and about the whole hand do you want is this in your opinion is a better to continue
[01:40:24] a better to shift to dummy's weak suit and that was the whole thing with obvious shift
[01:40:34] some people some people got it I was surprised in researching for the interview that you've never
[01:40:42] won an ABC event with your wife I wish you wouldn't bring that up but maybe she won't listen
[01:40:57] if we ever have did it when we next have dinner together we still mention that okay
[01:41:04] the closest we came was we were waiting the national mixed pairs a few years ago
[01:41:13] near the end of the event I forgot that my knowing was how I would my age and I didn't cash it
[01:41:20] and I had played another suit and then my wife got squeezed and then an over trick
[01:41:31] well I know that I'm the last time carry carry sandborn and I have been a bit of
[01:41:38] remarkable slam to win just edges by a couple match points so it's a sore point
[01:41:47] I would like you never to mention this again okay
[01:41:59] mainly because another reason is we didn't have that many chances of course because she was
[01:42:06] home as a mother for 20 years and and then we professional bridge I got hired with with people
[01:42:16] like Ronnie or or Russ on teams so and she get hired on women's teams so so sometimes you don't
[01:42:26] have that many chances right to win you'd have to be right playing all that more than we were playing
[01:42:36] right I mean good I and that another one of my favorite wins was what's the
[01:42:44] Cavendish with with Michael Rosenberg we we won with the lowest score ever in the Cavendish
[01:42:54] money tournament which is it's a pair as a pair yeah but we all I also won with
[01:43:01] my wife see it in the Cavendish teams with Zia and with Jimmy Kane and with a screenberg and with
[01:43:13] a spocky Rosenboot did you know him? I don't know that's all in the name I don't know.
[01:43:20] So we what we won that a couple of times that was fun but we didn't but we didn't play
[01:43:28] but playing pairs is with your wife is much harder than playing teams because every trick counts
[01:43:39] yeah yeah it's it's a more volatile game and you have to take chances and make bad
[01:43:58] you know my wife's idea was that we should go play in regionals and then we would get hired if
[01:44:05] we if we won enough so that's what we did and we played teams so that was fun and teams is much more
[01:44:12] relaxing as you know you just basically you're trying not to do anything wrong. Yeah so how much
[01:44:22] how much did you and Michael Rosenberg win when you won the Cavendish? How much what?
[01:44:27] How much money did you win? I don't remember this was when it was held back in on in New York
[01:44:38] not that much. I think at Cavendish is when you have to put up money to win money it's just
[01:44:45] other people better on you right? Yeah I think so I've never you I never played that. The biggest
[01:44:52] amount of money I ever won in one day in Grinch was with my wife she she she so you can bring this
[01:44:58] up when we we got married and right after we got married there was a bridge tournament in New
[01:45:04] Orleans and American National and there was a one day before the tournament there was a one day
[01:45:11] professional pairs yeah and first and we won first price was 10,000 and we won the 10,000. Did
[01:45:17] you actually get the the car from Lansia sorry I remember how can you oh going back to Lansia yeah
[01:45:24] we got we got the cut we sold I sold the car and used the money I sold the car in 1975 and we used
[01:45:33] I used the $5,000 that I got for the car which is a lot of money in 75 to move into Manhattan
[01:45:41] and get my own apartment but so I never used it the only guy who used it was Peter White so
[01:45:49] he's the only one who took the car you just loved riding around in that car you could see here with
[01:45:55] his hippie hair now. He's riding his way I see nobody even knew what Lansia is what
[01:46:02] anyway my favorite tournament has to be the one where I won with my wife in one day in New Orleans
[01:46:10] and that $10,000 went to quickly to all new furniture I never saw that 10 so she was she was
[01:46:20] I found that she was very good at spending money she knew how to spend it very well and she got
[01:46:27] came home or my clothes were gone or my furniture was gone. I suspected it because one day I came home
[01:46:35] we lived on a little place at first the apartment was on 60th Street between between Pock and Madison and
[01:46:47] we lived about madam romains pancake house you know that you remember okay so we lived there
[01:46:58] and it was a brownstone a beautiful brownstone and when I walked home one day
[01:47:08] from the rich club I saw a bum on one of my favorite bumps on the street and I knew and he was wearing
[01:47:15] my jacket or something that looked like it. Very suspicious. So I had all new clothes.
[01:47:31] Thank God. I have a student at one o'clock. Yeah, two o'clock what's on is in that? It's 1236
[01:47:40] but I'm ready I'm ready I'm done with you I'm over you okay but but I would say the best
[01:47:47] contribution to bridge I hope will be method bridge I would like to put in an ant for that and that's
[01:47:54] you where you learn where you where you that's the only book where I try to teach how to think
[01:48:04] when playing bridge not system not not anything else not tricky stuff just how to think
[01:48:14] and I believe that if you can memorize all the the top five or six or seven shapes in bridge
[01:48:21] like four or three two you don't have to count and if you don't have to count and you could just
[01:48:26] remember those those numbers you have so much more brain power to be able to to put to
[01:48:36] to create strategies in place you and I played a lot of rubber bridge we didn't need to memorize them
[01:48:44] they were drilled into us as we play bridge right as you as you play because in rubber
[01:48:50] bridge you play thousands of hands and then eventually you know all these shapes by heart without
[01:48:55] even thinking about memorizing them but the people who take up bridge today who I met and I love
[01:49:03] these are the people who I met during the co-iteror who are older people and they took up bridge
[01:49:09] in their 60s and later and they didn't have this background of rubber bridge and they don't
[01:49:19] have the people screaming at them that they played the rod and caught all right so they have
[01:49:26] they need a method to catch up and to them to catch up they have to take all these shapes and
[01:49:33] memorize them in their spare time so that they come to the bridge table then prepared and they
[01:49:41] don't have to count one two three four five six ten eleven twelve thirteen which I hear my
[01:49:46] students doing sometimes and it's very frustrating it's very hard to play bridge when you're counting
[01:49:53] all the time yeah sure right all right I'll talk to you again all right that thank you so much
[01:50:01] it's been fun I I've enjoyed it we've covered a wide range of subjects oh I've
[01:50:08] all right all right safe travel so talk to you thank you right thanks for listening to another
[01:50:16] episode of the setting trick I always love to hear from our listeners and want to thank Michael
[01:50:24] Bartlin for suggesting that I interview Matt best way to reach out is John at the setting trick.com