Ep. 84 Boye Brogeland: Bridge at the Edge and In Person

[00:00:00] Hi, this is John McAllister and I'm coming to you from Iceland where I'm playing in the World Bridge Tour Recuvec Masters Tournament. This is my first time playing in the Recuvec Masters. And I'm very excited to share with you my in-person interview with Boye Brogeland, who is one of the founders of the World Bridge Tour on his 52nd birthday.

[00:00:32] Unfortunately, my video for the episode was corrupted and so we only have Boye's video. So if you're watching on video, you're just going to get Boye. This was a great conversation, so it's a huge bummer that we don't have the interaction between the two of us on video, but I'm still really excited for this conversation.

[00:00:58] And I have to say playing in the World Bridge Tour, I've really enjoyed the event so far. We're starting the third day today. Boye is a consummate champion. He's won three European Open Championships.

[00:01:13] He won the Bermuda Bowl in 2007. And this is just, this is why I do the podcast to have conversations like this. And I'm friends with his wife. So without further ado, here's my conversation with World Grand Master Boye Brogeland.

[00:02:10] I'm a We did very badly, but that was sort of my first main event with the Norwegian team. On the Open team? On the Open team, yeah. So I was very nice because I was at that time in the military. So I got to leave. So rather than being out there shooting in the woods, I could go to Rhodes and have fun. So it was nice.

[00:02:29] Well, we first met thanks to Zia. My mom, God bless her, got me set up to play a tournament with Zia. And this was in 2013, we think. And Zia sent me an email. Would you like to play another event with Boye Brogeland while you're in Bieritz? And that was an easy yes. It was fun.

[00:02:55] I really enjoyed the sort of time we had together there. I thought it was so nice. I went to Bieritz many, many times during the summer. It's such a, yeah. It was such a nice just to hang out there. And it's just, yeah, the combination of bridge and just, yeah, hanging out, enjoying life and being with good friends and people. It's, yeah.

[00:03:11] So I really, I really liked that time we had that. We also had a local coming from where I live in Fleckervieu, Kjetel Myra, that came and played with Zia. And for him it was his 50th, like it was the 50th gift from his wife that he got to play with Zia there. So that was, it was so nice.

[00:03:29] And your, and your, your family was there. Your wife, Tanya, and your son Anders, your daughter wasn't born yet. One of the things that struck me about that tournament, which, which I just loved it. So it was just one session a day in the afternoon. And we went out to dinner every night after the game and we would literally go through every board. Every, every, every card.

[00:03:55] So, no, but I think that's, if you find people that really sort of, when bridge is their passion, it's not only the playing of the game, but just to go through the hands and just think, how can I get better? What happened? The fun part of it and all these things. So this is something I actually got with me already from playing in a Norwegian team. We had the same sort of, especially with Hellness, Tor Hellness. He was that sort of personal. He liked to go through, like I said, every card. Did you play high or low there? How did you encourage this card? What count did you give?

[00:04:21] So we, we went through every, every hand when we went to all of these major events. And I think that was a big, big learning point for me to go through all the hands and to really, yeah. So you don't even, you just, you just don't practice when you play because playing bridge is also very good practice, but we did every meal was like a great practice. And, and actually I was also very lucky when I played, when I started playing in the U S I played in the Rita Sugar team. And when we, we were four handed. So we played all the boards.

[00:04:50] And then we had Marshall Lewis that took together that time we did not have hand records for many matches. So he took notes. Every hand that was played, he wrote down and he then photocopied off. So we went to dinner, Rita bought like a couple of bottles of red wine. And this is when we had a late start. So we started at one o'clock to play. Then we went out to have dinner. Everybody got their set of photocopies of the hands. So we drank two bottles of red wine. And then I, I just drank Coke.

[00:05:19] But the other guys, so they, there were more wine for them. And we went through all the hands. And then we played the evening session and he took the same, all hands he wrote down. And he also had comments that, oh, you should have done this. Why did you do that? Done that. The Marshall did. And he brought back to Rita's suite. He brought back the photocopied records of the hands. So we then looked through all the hands and probably went to bed like two, three in the morning. Wow. And then up to play one the next day. For me, fantastic experience. I loved it.

[00:05:49] I love every bit of it. What was it like then? How did, how did you said you mentioned Rhodes in, uh, in 1996? How, how did you find out that you were going to be on the Norwegian team? It was a little bit lucky because we had, there were two pairs that was for sure to play. I think it was like Helge Mohelnes and Grotham and O. And they were for sure to play. And there was like one spot left. So we played almost like what we call the American challenge. Like the better pair in the Nordic championship would then got the chance to play in the,

[00:06:17] yeah, in, in, in the Olympia, the British Olympia. And we did a little bit better than, than the people we played with. So they, they chose us for, for go to Rhodes. You played in the Nordic? Yeah, the Nordic championship in the summer of, uh, 96. That was sort of the first. And we knew that unless we did better than the, sort of the pair that we teamed up with, we wouldn't go to, to Rhodes. So, so we had a very good tournament. And, uh, and then they, they chose us. So, and from there on out, I've, I've been playing for the, for Norway since 96.

[00:06:47] I've played sort of every, every freaking tournament in Norway. Every one? More than I, there was a little bit of period that I actually, there was a couple of tournaments I had said no to. Just, I actually, around the cheating scandal, I was a little bit sort of, yeah. I lost sort of like a little bit my passion for the game for just like for, for a short while. And I said like no to one or two tournaments. But except that I played sort of everything. And also when, when Helge Mohamednes, when they went to Monaco, quite a lot of Norwegian

[00:07:14] players said, ah, maybe not so interested in playing for Norway because we won't have a chance. But I played, I wanted to play. I just sort of, I just hoped that we could get lucky some of these events maybe. Yeah. So, because we have a lot of good players in Norway. But of course when Helge Mohamednes left to, to play for Monaco, we, of course we did not have the same team anymore. Were you, uh, with your wife in 96 when, uh, were you in Tynan together at that point?

[00:07:41] And that was actually the, when we met or, well, when we met, she was actually dating my, uh, my junior partner for a while. Yeah. So, so it took some time before we got together, but, but 1996 was sort of when we started hooking up. So, so that was, that was, yeah, that was nice. It was actually, I think it was actually right after, I think I met her. I was coming there with my suitcase because I wouldn't, I was moving to Bergen because I

[00:08:07] would be going to do my military service in Bergen where I also studied for the previous four years. So I just came with my suitcase there and I think we met up, we were going out somewhere and we met up and she came with me back home with my suitcase too. Yeah. So that was sort of the first time we actually met, I was right after the 96, the autumn of 96. Yeah. I asked cause I was wondering who, who the first person you told, uh, when you found out you made the open team.

[00:08:34] Uh, I don't know if I told, like I, I haven't told so many like, because I'm not really from a bridge family who taught me bridge was my grandmother and grandfather. So what I remember the most about sort of telling some, something to someone was when I started when I was around 20 years old and I went to play a tournament in Norman Oslo and we beat Helgemann helmets. They had a huge score, but they just couldn't beat us. And then I remember I went down to the phone booth.

[00:09:04] I was almost crying if I remember correctly. And I phoned my grandmother and said like, now we just won this tournament because she told me that boys, she said, you have to focus on your studies because you can never make a living from, from bridge. So that was, she was very afraid that I would spend too much time on bridge rather than doing my studies. I went to some economic studies and like I went to a very good school in Norway, in Bergen. So, but I, I studied, I did spend more time studying bridge than I studied my, yeah, the books.

[00:09:32] There was a little twinkle in your eye when you said that about the, about your girl's grandmother. Yeah, yeah. That's fantastic. So it's like she, she taught me, I went, we play only like three handed bridge because it was her and my grandfather and me a lot of time. So, but I went to them as much as I could during the weekends when they, they loved playing different games. But when they taught me bridge, I was, I was hooked. So I tried to go to them as much as I could during the weekends to, to play the game. And that's how it started.

[00:10:01] And I also played in the local club with my grandfather for a start and I played all the family members. So that's how it all got going. Was it your mom or your dad's, on your mom or dad's side? On my, this was on my mom's side. So, so, but I have, I still have uncles now in the club. Now when we met, when we won the Europeans this summer, the, I'm not sure what's the name

[00:10:27] in English, but the guy like the head of the, of the, of the town that we live in, he came there to congratulate me winning the Europeans. And both of my uncles, like both 80 years old, they were there sort of congrats. They still play in the local club. So I say there's not a bridge family. We still have some sort of bridge genes in, in the, in the family. Did you write your book? This is totally jumping around, but did you write your book? Did you write in Norwegian or did you write it in English? We wrote it in English.

[00:10:57] I did it together with David Berg and I've never done so much work for so little. So it's, it's, it's, I like to write bridge books. It's just sort of, it's, it's crazy. Like you only do because you, you want to sort of, you have something to say. And I wanted some of these hands to try to come up because I'm, and I'm, I was sort of good at, I'm not good at that anymore, but I was good at collecting hands when I was younger. So I thought, okay, these, these were good. And also I had David Berg with me writing book.

[00:11:25] He looked into different hands that played and also other writers in Norway that had sort of collected hands. So I could bring up, so, so I got a lot of sort of my, yeah, my top, top 50, top 100 hands in that, in that book. So you, did you approach David or like, I don't, I think it was maybe Ray Lee at Masterpoint Press that sort of got to me and said, oh, maybe size it. But yeah, I can't do that myself. Just too much work. Yeah. So I know it was too much work as it was even with David on like his, uh, fabulous guide to home.

[00:11:54] He's really, really good. And it was, yeah, very nice writing book together with, with him. But it just so much work to do these and to sort of, to get it in a way that you really feel good about. I can remember two, two, uh, hands, not totally, not specifically, but there's one hand where you had like queen and one heart in your hand and dummy was like ace, Jack or yeah, ace, Jack fifth or something, ace, Jack 10 fifth.

[00:12:25] And they, they played, uh, they played, they led a heart and you wrote, rose ace and now you're sure that the king was off. Yeah. I think that's, that's, it was very similar to what you say there, John. It was, I, because that's when people ask me what favorite hand, like, cause I've won many prizes also. I've been lucky and I'm not sure it's because people know me too well. I have too many good connections there that I get all these prizes for, for the best played hand of the year and those kind of things.

[00:12:50] But, but if you ask me more one hand, it's that hand I remember the best in my whole career. Because I mean, there was about two like top 10 players in Norway, top 10 in Norway, which are players. And as it, my dummy was ace, queen, Jack 10 fifth opposite too small. So it was the same. So it was just something with the whole thing. I just, I just felt that the king was on the side, because he led something and he started thinking, thinking, thinking, how should he sort of go about to defend his hand? And then he came out sort of with, with a heart.

[00:13:19] And then I was sure he wouldn't think like this if he just looked at the king in, in, in, in the pocket. Yeah. So, and these are like top Norwegian players. He went up with the ace and ran the queen and he had just king third, so it was no point for him not to worry. I just didn't test just how much the game is psychologically. And I just went, I, I, and I see him like up with the ace, run the queen, follow suit, then hold the trick. And diamonds were too, it was like way too, like the slam was just like, it was a,

[00:13:49] it was like maybe a 20, yeah, 20% slam or something. So the diamonds had to come in after that. I had to inject thorax in ace six, but that came in for two. So, so that was great. Like that, those hands are just because the psychology of the game to me, it's, it's such a big, that's a really, it's nice to like do a double squeeze or whatever, you have full control. But for me, the psychology of the game against the top players in the world, for me that's the best thing. So that, I will never forget that. I will get all the other hands, that hand I will never forget.

[00:14:16] What did, what did, what did, what did, what did you play with, was it with screens or what? No, no, no, this was just in a local, in, in, in, in Bergen. But like the top level in Bergen, like, but these were top, like, they both played for Norway, these, these guys. So you could say, oh, well why didn't he give count? Yeah, he gave count. It doesn't matter, it's the psychology of the game just too strong. It doesn't matter. The other one was there was some hand where Tor Helmus had like a 20 count, and they like bit a slam in his face and he didn't double.

[00:14:47] And I just remember being like, how is this pop, like, this was probably, I mean, I think I got that book before I met you. And I remember reading it, like how can you have a 20 count? And like, they bit a slam and you're not doubling. I mean, it was just... Brace that, yeah, everything can happen. But I remember what you think about like one, this, I'm not sure, I think this might be the book, but this was one I had with Espen Lindquist, my former partner. Now I play with Christian Bocken, my former partner.

[00:15:15] And we had this, we were passing like, three or four rounds we were passing. And then suddenly we entered the bidding and we bit up to a slam. So this is like fantastic, you can't even believe it. Like, just like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, you say nothing. And then you, it's incredible. I hope that hand is also in there. I can't remember. I know it's fantastic. And I also remember when you, when you think about like fun hands, yeah, that you hardly ever see.

[00:15:44] Is Zia, I mean, is he a mentor? Do you, how do you think of, how do you think of Zia? Yeah. I, I read when I, when I started Bridge, like I, when I went to bed, I read suit combinations. So I had the encyclopedia of Bridge, it's like two kilos. Oh yeah. I read that book. Yeah. And I read every freaking suit combination there was in that book. Wow. And I learned them by heart. So I was better than, I think at 16, I was probably better at suit combinations than I'm now.

[00:16:13] So, so, but that was just sort of, I, I, I learned that by heart. And I also, I read one of the first things that I read in Bridge was, was Zia's article saying, Roll Over Houdini, I think it's called, Roll Over Houdini. And it's about what he says that if they don't cover, they don't have it. Yeah. And it's the same thing, it's the psychology of the game. Yeah. Because you can say, oh, they should cover, they should not cover, whatever. But they just, in practice, when they have an honor and you play an honor, they cover,

[00:16:43] most people. So when I read that, that sort of, wow, he sort of like, he sees something in the game that I've never seen and that I might not ever see. But so, so he became sort of like a hero for me when I was young. And then I was so lucky that I got to meet him. I got to know him and we became friends and I played with him. I played with him in Iceland in 2003. So we won the pairs here in 2003 together. And he did so many sort of, he just plays his own style. It's okay. But I love it.

[00:17:12] Some people might find it sort of difficult, but I just, he's the, yeah, he's an artist at the table. So no, so he's, and we've become very friendly over the years. And my, yeah, my, my son had become friendly with his sons. And we've been to, yeah, we seem to be rich together and all these things. So yeah, I guess he's become maybe more and more of a mentor. I always, I picked up a lot of stuff from, from him, like his bidding wise and stuff.

[00:17:35] So I, and also from him, I picked up a lot, but I tried to pick up a lot of stuff from sort of players all over the world that I sort of, that I respect. So I put it into my system because there, you can always learn stuff. The day you think you're sort of, I know this game. That's the day when, when people pop, yeah. So they pass you and get better than you. I was going to ask you something.

[00:18:04] Oh, suit combinations. So when you were doing that, what will, how would you approach it? No, I do Reddit and I learned, I just, and I, I try again, like next, next evening. If I just didn't know, if I tell the one, I said, okay, I'm not, maybe I wrote something with it. I said, okay, I knew this. I knew, I know this, I know that. I, that one I'm not sure of. So, so that I'll, I'll have to do again. So, so it was just like learning stuff by heart. And if you do that, it's also easier when you get something new to try it because you're

[00:18:33] sort of into the right mind frame to, to, to remember these things. So, so I, yeah. So some of these sort of, you, I, I, I remember for example, if you have Queen, 10, 4th opposite 8th fifth. So sort of the, the, the, the right line to play the ace, but, but in, oh, Queen, 10, 9th, 4th opposite 8th fifth. But that's in sort of in theory. In practice, if you can play a low one and they will, well, from King, they very often will pop what it would think.

[00:19:00] So if you can get that read of it, it's much better to start with a low one. So you, you get more combinations in for example. So these things that are just sort of picked up by, by reading. Some of it's, it already said in, in that encyclopedia and, and some of it sort of I just knew by, I, I realized by, by reading it. So that, that particular thing that you just explained is in there? Yeah. Like if people play perfectly, you, you, there's nothing to be gained by just playing down the ace like most people would do.

[00:19:26] But if they flicker from King, for example, or something, then you can, if you can read, if you can get rid of the King, that's enough to tilt the odds that the right suit, the right way to handle the suit is to play a low one. And that's in the encyclopedia. Yeah. Yeah. You might find it difficult to see because a lot of pages there. A lot of combinations. No, I own it. But I, I mean, I know where it is. I know where it is on my bookshelf. Yeah. So would you, would you, when you were first reading it, would you test yourself against the combination? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:55] Just because I, they say what's correct. Yeah. I just look at a combination is like doing a glossary test. What I like to do. I check this, what, what, how would I play? Uh-huh. I'll play it like that. And then check it. Oh yeah, I was right. And if I wasn't right, okay, I'll do tomorrow. I'll be, I'll have it. So that's how I went about with those things. And that was just interesting. Some people are thinking this is boring. Oh, boring. But for me, it was just, you know, that just to, like, it's a problem solving, I think,

[00:20:23] in Brits that really, yeah, that's one part that I really, really like. Just to try and solve the problem and maybe solve it better than anybody else. Do you read The Bridge World or? No, I have, I do my own bridge, but I've done my own bridge magazine for 25 years. So I, I have to say I've read very little bridge. When I read bridge the most was actually when I was younger, when I grew over here. When I read these sort of like encyclopedias, suit combinations, I read some bridge magazines. I read, I read very few bridge books.

[00:20:53] The one book I like, it's like, there's also, what is it called, uh, probabilities. Or something, now I just, I forgot to do that. That just, it's a Kelsey book. So I've forgotten the name. You might look it up and find out what it is. That's, I think it's very helpful, like, to play like that. But that's more of a, combine your chances. Okay, there's, the chance to break 3-3 is 36%. And the chance for 4-2 breaks 48%. I know, I also, these also, I learned by heart when I was younger. All the percentages.

[00:21:22] So if you had to play for the drop, or to play for the finesse and all of these things. So I knew that, I knew better now. It's just, okay, I sort of know it. But if you, if you want to give me the exact numbers now, I would be more sort of shaking out than I was 20, 30 years ago. You've been on the Rosenthal team in the States for a while now. And you're, you guys won the Vanderbilt in 2022? 2022, yeah. It was right after the pandemic. Not the first one, but the next one.

[00:21:52] And there was a hand in around the 32, 4th quarter, that Chris Wilank and your teammate told me about. Were you psyched? Yeah. Yeah, that was something. I don't know. I told you about it. Yeah, that was something. No, I was, it was, we had so many times. Like, I think the match that we won the most that year was actually the final. With so many tight matches. And they were actually also against Spectre, I think, and there was a semi-final, it was quite clear victory. But before that, many, many tight matches.

[00:22:22] So I think this was against, it was, it was against, we played against Compton and Parcell, I think. We played, I think that was, we met in that, in that last, last quarter. And I thought we sort of, it felt like it was so close, but I felt we needed a swing. So I picked up something like two, two hearts, two spades. It was three little diamonds and queen-sixth of clubs.

[00:22:51] So I always, maybe, no it was the other way, it was queen-sixth of diamonds and three little clubs. First in hand. Yeah, I could be a bit, and white on red. You could be a bit frisky and open three clubs. Even friskier, open four clubs. Right, what the heck, I opened a no-tron. Fifteen seconds. So it's like, I, I, I thought sort of that's a little bit for me in public, because I hadn't checked if they would sort of, some people don't use a double against one of Trump bands. I hadn't checked with them.

[00:23:19] So I think they didn't, they didn't use that. So they have double as showing something, something else. So, so I then opened a no-tron and it went double. So it's showing something. And my partner then bit two hearts, transfer. Okay. And I think it went double on the left saying something. So what to do now? And I didn't want to take the transfer because I had only two. Because taking the transfer would be three. And I thought, okay, what the heck, fuck, I passed.

[00:23:51] He went, pass. And my partner, he passes. He must think that I have length in the hearts. I don't have three, I don't have three, three spades. He must think that I have length in the hearts. Oh fuck, how can I be so stupid? And why didn't I just open free clubs like a, like a normal sort of guy? The terms of his partner is 5-5 in the majors. And he has something like 13 or 14, 15 points. So he, he realizes that I'm psyched because of all the action that happens when they are, when they are red.

[00:24:21] And so he's like, ah, okay. I said, okay, partner doesn't have three spades. He's probably the best shot. I had only two hearts. So the problem in this, the bad news in this is that if diamonds have been breaking 3-1 or 2-2, he would have made two hearts. So that's the bad news. The good news is that the opponents could make six clubs, I think. So, six clubs. Six clubs are like so.

[00:24:50] I forgot that wasn't your suit. Yeah. I was like, wait. Yeah. Yeah. So he was just, he was trying to cash out and to make two hearts then. But, ah, diamonds were breaking 4-0. He had ace-king third and I had queen-sixth. That's the super, it broke 4-0. So he could be, he went one down or something. I think it was one down or two. I think it was just one down. But that was a great result for us. We needed that. And also I think we needed a missed defense on the next board.

[00:25:15] Because, so this, the combination of this like gaining the sims and them being shook up because of the whole thing that happened. So they missed the defense against the game that partner should not have made, that he made. So we got like, because of this hand, we got like two swings, not one. So I can't remember if we needed both, but we need, I think maybe we needed one and a half of these. These, these are fantastic sort of moments in your career that you think, wow, this is it. I still want to talk about it. I get the, I get the goose bumps.

[00:25:43] Like it just, these, I just, this is a dream. Like a dream for me come true. Because most of that it won't work, but just, I was there the day that actually, that actually worked. I was there, I tried it, it worked. And it was, and yeah, it was very helpful for us to win that band of all. It was, yeah, Andrew's first, first like sort of major win. He's done a lot of good like results over the years, but it was this, like one of the major events for him to win. That was the first one.

[00:26:13] Yeah, the Vanderbilt. That was the first big event that I played in. I think you've only got one, you've only got one Vanderbilt title. I haven't really, because the thing is, I, I, maybe that's, that's correct. Because I won some events with, I, we tried to get him away in a way when we won with Fischer Schwarz. Yeah. That we then later, yeah, understood clearly had been cheating also when they played with us.

[00:26:41] So we tried to, yeah, renounce those titles, but I still see that, I think they still gave the titles to us and they took away Fischer Schwarz. So, because, yeah, we did not deserve those, those victories. But we won, we won the most successful team, that was a Richie Schwarz team that I played with before playing with Rosenthal. Or actually I played also on John Diamond's team, that was fantastic. We won the Spingle the summer of 2017.

[00:27:08] We played four handed, Brian Plattnick and John Diamond and Espelin Quist and myself. And it was a very tight, well actually it wasn't so that we were down a lot before the last segment. But then we picked up and we had a good, and I went up, I remember after the last hand and said, and then went back to look, it was a BBO, to look at the screen. And we had overcome them. Wow. Like the Italians, like a great, great, great detail with Madala and Samantha and Prasaccia. Oh, yeah.

[00:27:37] So we beat them on the very, on the last one. The Lavazza team. Yeah, the Lavazza team. So that was also one of my, like, like, top five victories of all, sort of, my whole career. That 2017 is very high up there. Both the Vanderbilt there, as you mentioned, with the Rosenthal team is high up there. But I think the number one for me was 2008 when we won the Europeans. Then I had only played with Espelin and Christian for three months.

[00:28:06] And we topped the Butler and we won. Then Italy had won like six or seven European champions in a row. And then little Norway came there with just friends and family and just beat the heck of them. Hmm. So that was fantastic. So that's, I think, the number one also. Oh, yeah. We won the Bermuda Bowl in 2007 in Shanghai. That was, of course, a big dream come through. But so the main, like, the memory, the best feeling, I think, was that on the very last match,

[00:28:33] it was so tight in 2008, many, many teams could win or quite a few countries could win going into the last match. And we beat Denmark 24-6. And then, yeah, we, it was a grand slam that we, we were there. We were, they were almost playing in a 4-3 or a 4-5 instead of a 5-4-5. Yeah. But then, ah, we fell from grace and then had a bad result. But then we started doubling them in part scores. Yeah. It was amazing. We beat them 24-6.

[00:29:03] They were different scale at that point. And now it's just a 20, 20 scale. No, 20 BP scale. But then it was, yeah, the 30 BP scale. What did they do at the other table on the grand slam board? Oh, I think they stopped in 6th, yeah. So we would say they stopped in 6th at the main. Now that we had full control, like, it could even, even on a very good day, we could be, because I had an ace, king, queen, jack of my suit. And I could know there's a roughs, even on a 4-2 fit. Yeah. It would be right because you needed the extra rough on the short, on the short hands.

[00:29:32] Because of the bidding, you could, yeah, you could look that up at the very last hand in 2008. Fantastic, you could look that up. And we were almost there. We were sort of a suggested seven clubs, but it was hard to, okay, we were on the way. We had a nine-car spade fit, yeah, so it was always difficult to sort of take these actions that you sort of, okay, but it's, yeah, it was, it didn't, yeah, we still won. So it just made it sweeter in a way that after we could come back that, not bidding the grand, we went down in the grand. Yeah.

[00:29:59] And we just, we came back and won it. And we lost, yeah. Same last match. I was, I was emailing with Brian Plattenich in preparation for this interview, and he, he told me about, he reminded me of, he said, he asked if that was your best cycle ever, the 2017 one, because I guess you lost in the finals of the, you won the Spingale, then lost in the finals of Vanderbilt the next year or something like that? Yeah, I didn't kind of remember that.

[00:30:29] What I remember is that we should have won the Ryzen, I said this because I was, I got the, I had my family with me and my, my daughter got like a stomach like she was puking and stuff and she got it to me. So, so we like, Plattenich and John Diamond just played fantastic that event. So we should have won it. But I was there in between rounds, I went, I went out behind, I was puking, went back to play, maybe, maybe it's not supposed to be allowed, maybe I should have, withdraw, we were only four people in the team. Yeah. So either I just had to play or we had to withdraw.

[00:31:00] So, so that was, so that one we had a really, really good chance of winning. And the same thing actually, another time we had a good chance of winning was the first, the first Reisinger I played back in 2021. No, sorry, 2001. That was my first, first tournament with the Schubert team. Oh, you won the Reisinger? No, not that, we won, we won with the, with the, with the, with the, uh, Richard Schubert team. Yeah. Later on in 2014, we won the Reisinger.

[00:31:29] But this, with the first tournament I played, I thought it was, I came there, I was new to sort of professional, professional, uh, bridge and we played the Reisinger and I heard this was the toughest event. Yeah. It was so easy. Like I've never, it was incredible. Like I played with Tony Forster at this event and the first like 20 boards in the final, we just not, did not have a losing board. It was just like, we're winning this. We, we like, it was clear we were winning this.

[00:31:58] But of course at the other table where, uh, Richard Schubert and Andrew Robson played, they did not have the same feeling. They were just like, oh, we have to try something to get like, to get some of these bad boards back and stuff. So, so we came, I think we came four-faults at that time. It was very, very, very, very close. So that's also that, wow, is it this easy to come over here and play professional? I beat all the sort of the famous names. That's how it felt like that time. It's become more and more hard to, harder and harder to win these events.

[00:32:25] I think it's actually, it says on the, I know it says on the ACBL website, if you look up past winners, it says for the titles that you won with, uh, Richard Schwarz, that it says forfeited. Yeah. Okay. Next to your name. Because I think I just, it still lists you as a winner, but it says forfeit. Okay. Okay. Because I can just see from the ACBL bulletin when we play these events, they, they list us as, as winners, but they have removed, they have removed, uh, yeah. Fisher Schwarz from these. So, so I don't know.

[00:32:54] Oh, I didn't even notice if I, I was just looking for your name. So I didn't look at this to see who the team was. Um, I remember actually, I spoke to you on the phone. Do you remember? Like we spoke for probably like an hour. I mean, you were, you were, you were a busy band at this time, but when it, when it all happened, uh, I called you up pretty, pretty like it, like 11. I mean, maybe you called me cause it was like 10 or 11 o'clock at night in the States.

[00:33:21] And this was all like going on this cheating scandal. And you were, you know, the, the sheriff is the nickname that you. Yeah. I think it was mixed. I didn't like that. I was, yeah, I guess he called me that and now, okay, it's all right. But at that time I just didn't like it. It wasn't, it was like a concern. I much like like a concerned citizen rather than the sheriff. So I think that someone had to, yeah, try and do something. And it just fell on, fell on me to start it.

[00:33:49] And there was so much sort of help around the world to sort of try and, yeah, fix these things and looking at the videos. And so this, yeah, it was incredible how many people came together in the bridge community to help. So even if I was the one that went out against it, it was, it was really a big crowdsourcing thing that everybody came together and because, yeah. It just ruins the game. Like cheating is just, it's the cancer of the games.

[00:34:18] What was it exactly that happened? I think you played a match against the team and you lost. Yeah, because we had been teammates with Fisher and Schwartz for quite a while. And I had heard rumors. People came to me, how can they play with these guys? They're cheating. Yeah. Okay. It's yeah. I hear you say that. I have not seen many hands when I played against them. Well, it was difficult when you people, you sort of trust and like, they come to you and say, these guys are cheating. It's difficult. So I was very happy. And I go, I did not feel bad at all that they left. Even we had been the most successful team.

[00:34:48] I felt good when they left. They then started playing on the Kane team, the summer of 2015. And the irony is that we met them in the quarterfinal, the same in that tournament in Chicago in 2015. And it was such a close match and we won the match by one in. But then they complained about the board against Alan Graves and Richard Schwartz. And they originally wanted sort of a turnover like a 10-Ibs.

[00:35:16] But knowing that we have beat them by only one in, they only needed two-Ibs to beat us. So then they sort of, they started like saying different things that they might have doubled or something. So the end of it was that they gained two-Ibs, not 10-Ibs. They want to really, they gained two-Ibs on this board to beat us by one in. And that was, that was tough. Because we played so well that match and we felt that they really, they just made up a case.

[00:35:42] It was, in our view they did not have any good reasons for sort of, and we had been teammates and for them to first complain and then the directors said no, the results stand. And then for them to appeal. We felt bad about the whole situation. So, so, so I was, I couldn't go to sleep. This was in the middle of the night. I think this appeal committee was over around one o'clock or 1.30 in the morning. It was very late but I couldn't go to sleep. So I went in and I looked at BBO on the results.

[00:36:13] What had happened at the other day because we had not played against Richard Schwartz himself. So I just went in and I just had a look. And it was strange that when they had like King Jack, 10, 9, 5th of hearts and Queen 4 of clubs. And it goes a diamond, pass a spade, pass a notron. Most people here would lead the heart. Yeah. And they were just like Jack, 10 and 5th. Yeah. But they chose to lead the club. Not that it helped them so much on this particular hand but it was just weird. Yeah. And there was some other weird hands too.

[00:36:39] And what I really picked up on was the one board that I had picked up the trump suit to score two over tricks. Like Lorten Fisher, he had missed the trump suit but it was still scored as 12 tricks. So that should have been 1-in for us. So it should have been a draw. Wow. So that was the reason in the morning that I called my teammates and we did not think of them that they had cheated us by any means. Yeah. But on this, yeah, it should have been, we should have won 1-in for this.

[00:37:09] And then we should have, it should have been a tie, it should have been an extra board. So I called up my team and said, oh, what happened to this board? And they couldn't really explain it. It was some sort of, they were claiming, he was claiming and they didn't really understand what happened. So that's how it started. So we did not think of this as being cheated at all. We just felt that this was the wrong score. But then people came, oh, did you see how they cheated you on that board? And told them that I met Bobby Levin. No, I did not see that.

[00:37:37] Because that was a hand I had not picked up. But I had found the defense that made sure to beat the contract. But I could not see a lot of officials here, they had defended differently to take the contract too off. But still that defense risked the clear to make it. So these were just, there were just so many sort of small things that just came to me that I thought, hmm, there's something to this. And the very last night in Chicago I went out and people asked me, haven't you seen the video from the year before in the Europeans? Yeah.

[00:38:07] No. That's been on YouTube? No, no, no, no. No, no, you should see that video. And then I went in to see the video where I could see that Ron Schwartz picked up like, you have ace, queen, ten, I'm fifth, the diamonds. I was a king third. And this is you're in six diamonds. And like, it's just, so you play the best play, this is also suit combination with John. The best player here if you have the communication is to play a diamond to the king. Not to, like the normal thing is just to play that.

[00:38:35] Play the ace first from where you have two honors, but to play a diamond to the king is the best suit way to play it because you can pick up 5-0 on your right. Because you can play the king back to the ace, if you now see the 4-1 break, you can go to dummy and then do the hook. But by playing to the king you can now pick up queen, Jack fifth also, which many people don't think about. They just play the ace like normal, go to the king and take the hook. So that sort of, but in this situation he played the ace and ran the ten of diamonds.

[00:39:05] It's like an impossible play for a good player. It's just so anti-outs unless you're peaked in the opponent's card. And what had happened was actually that Fischer had peaked in, or actually not just peaked, he let him show it. Luke Verhez showed his hand and then Lothen picked up that trumps were breaking badly. And for some reason he found like his partner playing the hand found out that these were breaking badly.

[00:39:35] And he then made the contract. So this is where it all started. And I also remember one hand from that tournament that I had read about, like it was David Byrd had come up with this book together with, I don't remember his A, his last name, but what to lead against no-trump contract. So I was a lead with ten-nine, I think ten-nine-eight-fourth of spades, king third of hearts, and three small, three small basically.

[00:40:03] And he goes two no-trumps on my right, pass, three no-trumps on my left, pass, pass, pass. So now what would you lead? Ten-nine-fourth of spades. Ten-nine-eight-fourth of spades, king third of hearts, three small, three small. I guess I'm supposed to lead a heart because of that. Yeah. In this tournament, yeah. So, but based on what I sort of picked, I hadn't read the book or anything.

[00:40:26] I just, I saw that someone wrote on bridge winners or whatever that this is what Byrd and Antibus, I think maybe, this is what they claim, that you should try and find your partner's five-card suit, it's more likely to set it then. Yeah. So I led a heart. And that weekend, queen, ten-third of hearts, didn't look that promising. It goes ten, jagged, small. Back to my king. Heart, five-trumps. Wow. Done one.

[00:40:52] And then if you go in and watch the video, where Lothar Fisher and Dave, this is against Norway, this was against Israel. Oh wow. So we played against each other. So it goes sort of similar, similar biddings. And he scratches and says, like what to lead. And then, in the end, he comes out with a heart. Which one? A small heart, just to beat five. No, but which one? Lothar Fisher. Oh.

[00:41:20] So he beats, he finds it up, cash out, five-trumps. Okay, one down. So you go in and you look at all the scores in this European team. Everybody leads the tenorspades. Except me. He was a little bit quicker than Lothar Fisher. He needed like a little too quick. So that's sort of like the sort of, yeah, it's incredible.

[00:41:45] So just too many things came together and I think I realized that these were difficult because these were my friends. And I still like, I don't have any personal things against them still. Even though they, yeah, they threatened to sue me and these kind of things. But it's, I still don't feel, I don't have any hard feelings against them as persons. But the problem is that for Bridge Day we just need someone to really try and fix this. Because it was getting really, really problematic with all the cheating at the top level.

[00:42:16] So someone had to do it and my feeling was just that other people would not stand up. And the federations wouldn't stand up for it. So I was left. I just thought, okay, I have to do it myself. So when was the last time you spoke to either of those guys? Well, I met Fantoni now in Buenos Aires. I met him in Buenos Aires. He was there with someone with some of the Italians. So it was nice actually, nice to see him. I hadn't seen him for, yeah, nine years.

[00:42:46] He looked like you, John. He looks good. So, yeah. No, so that was fine. I went up and shook his hand and said, yeah, hi. I have nothing against, as persons I think these, they are no worse persons in my view than all the other Bruce Bers in a way. But they cheated, which is of course very, very bad. But as persons, as people to be with, to go out for dinners with, yeah.

[00:43:14] I don't feel bad towards them, but of course I feel very, very bad towards what they did cheating-wise and how they ruined Bridge for many years. Did you get death threats during that? No.

[00:43:27] No, I think the worst thing was some, it was a mootone that sent some, a frackle tone that sent some text message to someone that, like some sort of laughing emojis and say that whenever a boy needs a wheelchair we have plenty of those in the south or something like that. So, yeah.

[00:43:50] Those kind of, we just, but I never thought, I never felt, but I was, but I was really trying to be careful if I'd never been in such a situation. So, I called some of the police and always said, what would you do if you sort of, I felt like I was a whistleblower here coming out. Yeah. What would you do? And they said, oh, maybe when you come out with all these things just maybe be in a different place than you normally are. So, I went to my family camp and I just spent time there just to be a little bit away from, yeah.

[00:44:19] Because I could feel like this was very tough on me, like the psychological, it was very difficult because maybe especially because they were my friends. I knew I was going to take their livelihood away from my friends. They were not my enemies. They were my friends. Another thing Platnik suggested is he said that he was asking you once how famous you are in Norway. And, uh... Magnus Carlsen, he's famous in Norway.

[00:44:48] I'm a no-holy in Norway. No? I know. And of course, I actually, after these came out, these documentaries and stuff, that had happened actually. I've been in the airports of, oh, aren't you that guy that sort of did the, yeah, dealing as all the cheaters? Yeah, yeah, that's me. So, but I'm, yeah, I'm not famous at all. I'm famous in rich circles, but not anywhere else. So, we're actually, this interview is in person live. Some people might just be listening. We also do video.

[00:45:16] But we're actually in Iceland for the, it's January, today's January 24th, I think? 26th. Today's the 24th. I'm a full deck of cards today. You didn't know it. January 26th. I'm 52 today. Oh, today's your birthday? Yeah. Oh my gosh. I said to Tony, I'll just let them know, I wouldn't, yeah, I wouldn't like pre-tell you. Oh my gosh. Wow, did he know that? No, I don't know that.

[00:45:44] Unless they checked my wife's Facebook or something, I think. Oh my gosh. Probably should put on something nice about me there, I hope. Oh wow, so yeah, so we're, well I forget what I was saying. Yeah, so we're at 60 gentlemen. For sure. So I'm playing in my first World Bridge Tour event that starts tomorrow. You're, I was going to ask you, I mean you started the World Bridge Tour but… Yeah, together with Thomas, Thomas Charlson was the one that had the idea. He helped me a lot during this like cheating scandal.

[00:46:13] So when he said, I had this idea maybe to, yeah, to do something like, sort of a little bit like a, a news bridge federation in a way that people you could trust. I think that was the key because this was during the pandemic when all this online cheating went down and then he got this idea that we have to bring people together that we can trust and we can play tournaments. So Thomas Charlson was the one that had this idea and he asked me if I wanted to be, come along and, and I did it. Yeah, yeah, I think this is sort of interesting idea. So that's how it started back in 2020.

[00:46:43] And this event here has a great field. You guys are doing an event the day before the, two days before the NABC in Memphis? Yeah, but this is a little bit, you see, the thing is that, that the WBF, we started the World Bridge Tour at WBT, but the WBF, they sort of stole our name. And not people, people understand this, that when you see the WBT, they're mentioned, it's actually WBF.

[00:47:11] So this is maybe not so easy to understand people. So there's, there are two WBTs. It's our World Bridge Tour and it's the WBF's World Bridge Tour. But the good thing, I've had a long talk with Jan Kamlas a couple months ago and I think we both, like, okay, maybe it's better that WBF has had the WBF tour. And so it's not all this sort of mixing up, it's the WBT is the demo. Yeah.

[00:47:36] So now, I guess going forward, mainly us will be sort of the WBT tour and they will have sort of the WBF tour. But at the moment or up to this point, there's been two WBTs out there. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here on your birthday. It's an absolute pleasure and a surprise. And I did speak to Tanya. I had a question that she suggested. Okay. We'll finish with that. Yeah. I was going to say it was from an anonymous, it was an anonymous question.

[00:48:06] But she said, how important is this having a bridge wife? Very important. Very important. I think that for me, having a non-bridge wife would be very difficult. So it's been fantastic, I would say over there with, yeah, with Tanya. We met through bridge and we had a lot of fantastic experiences through bridge. Also in 2005, we had our son in April. And in June, we played European Championships in Tanneriff, the mixed.

[00:48:35] And we had three couples, the Eriksen-Eriksen, the Hellness-Hellness and Broglen-Broglen. And we won that event. So she was breastfeeding our two months old son. And we brought two of my sisters to look after him. So that was also one of the most fantastic experiences in my life. So, but the thing is, if you go to bridge tournaments, you go out, you talk about bridge also.

[00:49:02] So for someone that's not sort of involved with bridge to go out and be part of the dinners and stuff, it must be boring. But I know she enjoys it. So it's great to travel the world together to go to these tournaments. And we have so many, yeah, nice times together and both at and away from the table. I'm sorry you're not here finally. Happy birthday, Boya. Thank you.

[00:49:26] In preparation for this conversation, Boya was asking me to get on the new World Bridge Tour app. And I have to say that I was a little, a little slow to do that. And, but, you know, when you're getting to interview somebody like Boya, you follow orders. And I played a couple of tournaments here in Iceland before the event started.

[00:49:54] And I think it's really fun. You get to play these tournaments where you get to play against Simon Holt and compare your results against Simon Holt. Or Sartaj Hans, a past guest on the setting trick. And many more, Christian Bakke. And so I just encourage you to check out the WBT app.