Ep. 85 Jason Hackett AKA Prime Mutton

[00:00:00] I am here today with possibly one of the more famous bridge players in the world. About a month ago, there was an article posted on Bridge Winners about Prime Mutton, AKA Jason Hackett. And I thought, I really need to interview you for the podcast.

[00:00:27] And amusingly, as we were talking before here, before we started recording, Jason, you mentioned that we've never actually talked to each other in spite of seeing each other at bridge tournaments over the years. So it's a pleasure to finally speak. Tell us a little bit about your other persona, Prime Mutton.

[00:01:00] Well, for a long time during the lockdowns, like most of us, we all got a bit bored and started watching more social media than we ever did before. And I obviously have a lot of experience over the years traveling mainly for bridge, but other things as well, trying different foods and drinks. And honestly, a lot of the stuff I saw was a load of tripe on YouTube from people who were

[00:01:30] basically very good looking, basically very good looking, but I don't know if I'm allowed to use a slightly colloquial phrase here. They didn't know their ass from their elbow when it came to like a good pint of Guinness or a good meal or how to travel or where to stay. So I thought, well, I don't actually know how to film and edit, but I've got a better story to tell. So I'll start doing my brains in on camera equipment and learn the hard way.

[00:01:58] So one of the first trips that you took post COVID, I really loved this, was to Pakistan. Yes. Yes.

[00:02:10] When I went over, a lot of my friends and fellow bridge players, they saw me on real bridge playing an English tournament. And it was a bit of a problem because I was on mute because I didn't want the outside noise to interfere with that bridge.

[00:02:29] And I said something forgetting I was off camera, on camera. And they said, what are you doing? You're supposed to have your audio on. So I turned it on and the muezzin around the corner was giving out the call to prayer. And they called the director and complained about the noise. So the director said, what's this noise?

[00:02:51] I said, well, what do you want me to do? Go around and tell the muezzin to tone it down a bit. So we had an agreement that I went back on silent. But anyway, I went there because I'd seen a lot of other bloggers go there. It was fascinating somewhere where not a lot of people go. And more crucially, at the end of 2021, it was about as far east as I could go without running into quarantine. Had you been to Pakistan before that?

[00:03:20] I had once. I played a bridge tournament there in Karachi about a decade ago. I quite liked it. My brother, who I play with, was scared lifeless and wouldn't leave the hotel. But I went around with other people to various venues. And I thought, yeah, there's a lot going on here. It's quite interesting. It's not a boozer's paradise, shall we say. But apart from that, it's all right. What was the tournament in Karachi?

[00:03:52] I've forgotten the name of the tournament, but they used to play one every year with decent prize money. And the invite basically consisted of them looking after us once we'd arrived in the country. And one of my friends, I think it was either Tom Pasch or Ed Jones, was a bit perturbed by the police escort with flashing lights that they got to the hotel.

[00:04:20] And when they stopped at lights, they went, oh, these people staring at them. At least for me, it's not too bad, because until I open my mouth, they might think I'm a local with my skin colour. But for them, I mean, they stood out like sore thumbs. But it was a nice tournament. And we won the teams. And everybody was really hospitable. And I thought, well, you know, if I go back, I feel reasonably safe, particularly with them helping me around and showing me where to go.

[00:04:50] I was amused that you ate brains. Well, funnily enough, I had brains again 10 days ago, but this time it was in Paris having sheep's brains. But the brains masala I had in Karachi, like Pakistani foie gras, really good texture, very meaty flavour. And I'd have them again any time.

[00:05:14] I know a lot of people are squeamish about it, but, you know, there's a reason why these dishes are on the menu, especially at market restaurant. What do you think is like the most unusual thing that you've eaten? Well, in China this year, I had something called jaman sandworm, which was all right.

[00:05:40] But, I mean, the people around me thought they'd seen the second coming of Christ when they were eating this. But it didn't do a lot for me. And I've had grasshoppers and other insects. Actually, I was a bit squeamish about having that, but it was incredibly bland. In fact, I think I've had it actually in Mexico without realizing it. Chapulinos, I think they call it. And it's cheap protein and doesn't really have a place in a fine restaurant as far as I'm concerned.

[00:06:11] How many countries have you been to? I sometimes count this up. It depends how you count it. If you count places like Hong Kong and Greenland, which aren't strictly their own countries, then about 87. If you take those places away, it's about 80, 81, something like that.

[00:06:31] I hope to get into three figures, but I'm not one of these people who wants to do all of them and have to travel around in armed convoys in the Central African Republic or somewhere like that. I mean, I'm hardly going to do a food vlog from places like that. I mean, unless I'm wrong and there are Central African restaurants all over big cities like New York and London, but I'm yet to see one. And would you count being on the tarmac?

[00:07:02] Would you count that as having been to a country? No, airports don't count. For example, I don't claim to have been to Hawaii even though I've transited Honolulu Airport three, four times. So it's somewhere I need to go. Wow, that's amazing. I mean, Hawaii, I've only been there once. Yeah.

[00:07:27] I guess I'd like it, but my idea of a holiday is somewhere that's quite culturally different rather than somewhere. I mean, I don't mind English speaking places, but I like to go somewhere where there's a bit of a culture shock. So in that way, Pakistan really did fit the bill. Have you ever, in all your travels, have you ever felt unsafe anywhere? That's a good question.

[00:07:56] There was one occasion when I was in Beirut, Lebanon, and I met some people on the plane. I was traveling from Dubai and I got upgraded and they invited me out for dinner. I think it was some well-to-do guy from Dubai. And then when I got a lift afterwards and I was absolutely plastered at the time, I thought, God, they could be taking me anywhere, these people. But they did just take me back to the hotel.

[00:08:28] So in addition to the Esquire article, there was another article that explained, it answered several of my questions. So it answered a question about how you got the nickname Prime Mutton. Well, yeah, it's an oxymoron, really, because mutton can't really be prime.

[00:08:53] And I think my taste is prime and my body is mutton rather than prime lamb. So mutton actually couldn't be prime? No, it can't be prime. Well, OK, if you Google prime mutton, you will find some farmers in New Zealand and Wales claiming to sell it. But I mean, old sheep, I don't think that's prime. It's like, you know, people when they go, oh, have a rack of lamb, please.

[00:09:23] No, no, I'll have a rack of old sheep instead. Possibly not. And then one of the other questions that answered was, is does the Guinness, because a lot of your prime mutton is about reviewing Guinness, right? Yeah, yeah. And one of my questions was, is the Guinness better the more that it's flowing at a bar, which. Absolutely. It's a very delicate drink.

[00:09:52] It needs to flow through the lines, because if it doesn't get stuck in the lines, it goes off ridiculously quickly. And if anybody disbelieves me, I would encourage them to buy a pint of Guinness, leave it for 15 minutes and then get another one and come back and taste the difference. And you often get something that's fresh and tasty versus something manky and sour.

[00:10:15] Now, if the pub doesn't look after the Guinness, clean the lines regularly, keep the cooler system tight, close to the tap, then you're not going to get a good pint anyway. But assuming they do, it will make a huge difference. You also said that it depends on, like you can't, like washing the glasses in the dishwasher is bad.

[00:10:40] Yeah, especially if there's been tea, coffee, food, dairy products, you have to wash them separately. And even, to be honest, washing Guinness glasses where lager or blonde beers have been, that can taint the taste. If you have lines that are used sometimes by blonde beers, again, that can taint the taste as well. It is so, so delicate.

[00:11:08] And to get the best pint of Guinness, the pub, has to get a million and one things right. And some of these places in Dublin and other parts of Ireland, very complex operation. And most importantly, if their Guinness goes off the boil, Guinness actually come and help them. And now, in fact, in Ireland, every pub that serves Guinness, Guinness come and clean the lines for them. They don't want the pubs doing it themselves. Wow. You said off the boil. What does that mean?

[00:11:38] Off the boil means that it's off form, not drinking so well. It's a British phrase we use. So, for example, if your favourite sports team has gone on a bad run of form, you'd say they've gone off the boil after a good start to the season. Got it. Got it. Speaking of sports, you're a Man City fan. Yes.

[00:12:04] But I think your brother is a Man United fan. Yes, yes. We often talk about sport mainly and food and drink. And when it comes to sport, we have, as they say in diplomatic terms, we have constructive and cordial discussions about football and disagree all the time. Not in any nasty way or anything.

[00:12:32] But Man City hasn't really been that good for – they've only been good for a fairly short period of time relative to – They were good in the 1970s, maybe very early 1980s, and then dipped and had a terrible 25 years. And, okay, I'll say it is due to the United Arab Emirates group that took over the club that the money got pumped in, which made us competitive again.

[00:13:01] And apart from this season, we've most definitely been the best team for about six or seven years. And so were you like a long-suffering Man City fan who got – Well, I was taken by my mother to Main Road, their own ground, in 1976. I can't say I was a diehard regular because there were times when I was starting out doing what I'm doing that I couldn't afford the season tickets and everything. Now I can comfortably do so.

[00:13:31] So in those days, I went to the odd game here or there. Now I go to every game I can. And I've been going to every game that I can for not quite 20 years, but I'd say something between 15 and 20 years. Wow. So you must be thrilled then with the new ownership. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the manager, Pep Guardiola.

[00:13:57] But sometimes Bridge does get in the way because last season, I went to every single home – or two seasons ago when we won the Champions League. I went to every single home and away Champions League, both in Manchester and Europe. I went to the away game in Madrid, but the two games I missed, one because I was playing Bridge in China, was the 4-0 win against Real Madrid, which is possibly Manchester City's best ever performance.

[00:14:23] And I missed the final in Istanbul because I was playing in Strasbourg in the European Open. So I sometimes question whether it's worth playing Bridge to collect the money when these are once-in-a-lifetime experiences you've missed. And you had on your page, you had a GoFundMe to get you to the US for the World Cup. Yes, that's right. I don't like having to do that.

[00:14:53] I prefer people support me through stuff like buying cameos and merchandise from my website, which is one of my main sources of social media income. But the prices for the tickets in the United States for sports events are eye-watering. This is a new event. And to watch the final, I would have to – well, I've bought the tickets now conditional on City getting there.

[00:15:21] It's like $920 or $900 to sit on the top tier in the worst seats in the ground following City behind the goal. And $2,000 if you want to be on the lower tier. And of course, having paid out the money to FIFA, I've just seen a message flash whilst we're talking from City. Keeper seats available for the Club World Cup. So I guess hardly anybody's going at the prices they're asking for.

[00:15:51] Oh, this isn't even the World Cup like the – No, not the ones like in Qatar where Argentina when the countries play. This is one for clubs. And they've historically had very small 17 tournaments, which the European team always wins. And they've expanded it now to – I can't remember whether it's 24 or 32 teams now.

[00:16:14] But there are a lot of European teams going, some South American from all over the world. And it could well be a great competition. But it could be a glorified friendly if the clubs, particularly from Europe, don't put everything into it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I watched some of your cameos.

[00:16:40] They usually all finish the same way, suggesting people go for absolute creamers. Tell us about the – it's an absolute creamer. That's hilarious. I also love you've got a pillow on your website with this phrase on it. That you never get wet in the pub. Yeah. And that's an old Irish saying.

[00:17:06] That is – it's raining outside. So if the wife starts complaining, you know, you're staying dry by being in the pub. You've got iPhone cases available on your – Yeah, yeah. All sorts of things. We've got beach towels coming out now as well and hoodies.

[00:17:27] And one mutton Easter, as I call my followers, his girlfriend had apparently been spending too much time cuddling the mutton Easter cushion instead of him. So it must have a bit of effect there. How did you start doing merch?

[00:17:50] Basically, because a lot of my followers were asking and asking and asking for it, mainly the US-based followers. Once I got over 100,000 followers, I thought this is the time to launch it, time to launch the cameo because you're in a better position if you have that following. And it's commercially proved to be quite a hit. Obviously, not many people are interested in these things in January.

[00:18:17] But otherwise, you know, it's been very good. How many cameos have you recorded this week? This week, it's been fairly gentle. I think it's about 50 or something like that. Well, you say, oh my gosh, when I first started on Cameo, I was doing like 35 a day for a while. Oh my God.

[00:18:46] I remember when I went to play Bridge in China in December, I flew from Dublin because the UK taxes on because I flew in business when I go that far because of my size and because of, well, you know, I'm getting on a bit. And it was quite cheap from Dublin. So I thought, well, I'm arriving in Dublin the day before because I can't take risks with the connection. I'll go and do a vlog.

[00:19:14] And I got to the room absolutely knackered after a morning flyer. I thought, how am I going to do this? I've got 39 of these cameos to do. So I just sat there, waded through, went and did my vlog, which was about Beamish in Dublin. It's a cork stout. So it's a bit of a controversial thing. And as always happens at the end in Ireland, I go somewhere for a quiet pint.

[00:19:41] The manager recognizes me, says, oh, try the Murphys here. And before I knew it, I'm looking at my watch and it's half three with a 12 a.m. flight to take. And I thought, oh, God, I've done this again. And I did make my flight. Man, that's just the stuff about the – I mean, you've got like one bar in Dublin you said is the best place for Guinness. Yeah, I think it's the grave diggers.

[00:20:09] I mean, the thing is, it can vary from keg to keg and day to day. But on the whole, they're quite consistent. I remember on one trip there, there's a place called The Cobblestone, which I thought was the best. But more often than not, I find I prefer the stuff at the grave diggers. And the landlord, Kieran Kavanagh, lovely, lovely guy. Very approachable. Also a big foodie. And they've got a good rest stop next door, which is quite hard to get a table at.

[00:20:38] My stepfather's Irish and we were in Ireland in August. Unfortunately, I didn't know about Prime Mutton at that. Yeah. Yeah, some of my most popular YouTube vlogs are the pub crawls and reviews in Ireland that usually spin out of control at the end. They seem to be a big hit with my followers. They do.

[00:21:03] And how did it, I mean, like I understand how it started, but how did it, like, what was it like, you know, you started doing it? Were you a hit immediately or? No, no, no, it took a lot of hard work putting up videos, which admittedly were not particularly well filmed, not very well presented and not very well edited either. And sometimes you would get, I mean, I think there's one that's still only got like 100 views or something.

[00:21:32] But, you know, you get bigger and bigger and bigger, getting better, you know, cutting out the hesitations and speech, actually making sure the camera's pointing in the right direction, making sure you've got the right mics and gimbals and everything like that. And two things really got me going. On YouTube, it was a visit to Real Madrid where we were losing.

[00:22:00] So we were winning and we were two goals up with like a minute to go. And Real Madrid got two goals. Nowhere went in extra time. And the other city vloggers all cut the video off before that deliberately out of spite. I just filmed the whole thing. I filmed a good food and drink segment instead of just sitting in the Plaza Mayor, like most of the away fans do.

[00:22:24] And my phone was pinging away with comments and all sorts of hundred and odd thousand viewers very quickly. Which for some vloggers is not that big, but for me it was. And then the big thing on Instagram was going to the Gravediggers and other pubs in Dublin and reviewing. Because there are a lot of people who review Guinness out there, but they don't stray from where they live very much.

[00:22:51] And the thing is, it's miles better in Ireland than when people saw me reviewing from there. And it was just a, again, this was just a massive stroke of luck. This was city were playing away in Bern. And by far the cheapest way to go was to go to Dublin. So I thought, well, there's somebody who might want me to play a bridge event with them. So I'll go there for a few days and then fly on to Switzerland.

[00:23:19] And when I was sat in the Gravediggers, I was doing a YouTube clip for this football video, sort of starting it with a twist in a country that's got nothing to do with the match. And I thought, well, I'll do an Instagram reel as well whilst I'm at it. And my Instagram following before that was about 900 followers.

[00:23:44] And about three weeks later, it was up to like 76,000 miles. So I think that qualifies as a viral video. Have you attempted to like cross over your blog with Bridge at all or given any sort of, or have you just completely avoided? I have avoided it.

[00:24:13] Actually, a lot of people have asked me about this. And I said, well, I'm not somebody qualified to teach people because teaching beginners is a completely different skill set. I just point people towards either the English Bridge Union, the ACBL, the European Bridge League or the Australian Bridge Federation. So that's best to get your information there. Because if they're younger people, which they mainly are,

[00:24:44] I'm not going to try and big up a game which is basically marketed at older people at lower levels. I don't know what it's like in the States, but if you go to most Bridge clubs, except for a few big cities in Britain, it's stuff with the Blue Rinse Brigade in their 80s and 90s, with dragons on the club committee looking for any tiny faux pas to get you suspended or something.

[00:25:12] I mean, you have to learn the club rules more carefully than the actual game in some of those places. So until Bridge aims itself a bit more at people who are younger and want a good time when they're playing, I'm hesitant to recommend it to people who follow me because they like going out to restaurants or drinking beer and stuff like that.

[00:25:40] You don't play in the States that much. Used to. I've been to a lot of nationals, but rather than getting people asking us over from the States, it used to be people from Europe who wanted us to come and team up with them. And up until I think it was the fall national in Orlando in 2018, going from time to time,

[00:26:07] but the COVID pandemic really scuppered that unfortunately. And whatever anybody thinks, apart from the very top level of the game, which I suppose that was, it's not really come back properly in my opinion, with a few exceptions. What do you call it? What do you call the European championship that you won? It's the European Open. Yeah. The, the, the closed championship is for selected national teams,

[00:26:36] all of the same nationality. This is a bit like the world transnational that held in Europe. And it has a lot of the same participants as, as the world transnational. And it was in Istanbul actually, which is a great city in my opinion. And also a very lucky city for me because we won that there. And city won the European cup or the champions league in Istanbul as well.

[00:27:07] You know, it's funny because just in researching for this podcast, it, they call the, the European national, like the, the closed, they call that the European opens. And so they call this other one, but I'm used to calling it like you said, you know? So you won that, you've passed was on your team who I know. So yeah. Okay. And Ed Jones, who you don't wouldn't see too much now,

[00:27:36] but both very fine players. And it's quite a pity that COVID came and kind of collapsed the team. Unfortunately, is that your best? Is that your best win? Um, I don't know. We, um, played in, got to the final of the, um, what they used to call the teams Olympiad. And I think it's called the world bridge games now in Beijing.

[00:28:02] So we've got a silver medal lost to Italy by 30, but obviously we don't know what ingredients went into the pasta sauce in that occasion. So, uh, when you say Olympiad, like you mean like the tournament that, uh, that was this year. Yeah. So I didn't realize that was, uh, yeah, 2008. 2008 it was. So some people might say that was a greater achievement. I don't know.

[00:28:33] I will add by the way, that for all these medals at teams, the one I actually crave the most is at pairs. I love pairs and border match. I don't like the idea that a small number of big boards can decide any tournament and how skillfully making an extra trick is irrelevant. And I think pairs and border match, uh, they address that very well. Sadly,

[00:29:00] because of all the flag waving and nationality stuff, pairs always take second seat really to teams events. So what would you, what, what, what, what would you say is your most desired title then? It would be the world pairs championship. Although back in the day, I think I played in all the finals between, uh, when was Albuquerque, 1994 and 2008 or 2010.

[00:29:30] And it was for pairs from the same country. Oh, that then. And now they've made it a transnational for reasons that I don't like, but I won't say what they are. Cause I might get into trouble broadcasting. Oh, well, that was, that, that was the, that was the pinnacle. Well, if you, if you look back at why transnational, uh,

[00:29:55] pairs and teams were allowed because the Rosenblum preceded that. Actually, I think it was, it was earlier than that. It might've been Montreal where for reasons, I don't quite fathom, some transnational teams were allowed in an event where it explicitly stated that players had to be from the same country and losing the quarter final to one of these transnational teams leaves me a little bit sore. I see.

[00:30:27] So is your brother, Justin, your main bridge partner? Yes. Yeah. Probably one of the world's most longstanding partnerships. And again, COVID has messed things up. I mean, partly because he, you know, wanted to spend more time at home with his wife, partly because I'm pursuing this social media career.

[00:30:53] We've probably not been polishing and practicing as much as we should do. Really. So it's, uh, still a good partnership. And to be honest, because of the social media and I'm playing less and there's less pressure on me to win every match and succeed. I'm actually enjoying it a lot more. I must say. He and his wife were in, uh, we're in Iceland where, uh, where I was just recently.

[00:31:22] I had a nice chat with, uh, with his wife. Yeah. We were watching the handball, uh, uh, some match in the handball world championships. Uh, yeah. Germans like, she's from Germany and they like humble that nobody in Britain watches it. I think if you talk to handball about whether somebody British stuff, I think it's a football or soccer game where somebody should be giving a penalty because they've handled the ball in the area. I couldn't tell though,

[00:31:52] if they were playing, I, it seems like they must've been playing in the event, but I didn't actually see them playing in the event. They would have, they would have been playing in the event. Yeah. Um, Justin plays with a local sponsor from Manchester and she usually brings along a friend from Germany to make up the team. We do not. Good event. Good event though, Iceland. I do enjoy that. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[00:32:22] It's a, it's kind of wild to be in that part of the world in, you know, in the winter. Yes. Yes. Uh, it's also famous for rather wild last nights after the bridge is finished. But, uh, I first went there in 93 and it was mad. Absolutely mad. I felt as rough as somebody having sandpaper rubbed on their forehead the next morning.

[00:32:51] And I remember once going with the, my good friend and an international Chinese plans to Fuzhong. Yeah. To Iceland. And that afternoon, it was sunny, cold, clear, freezing. Overnight, it snowed. And then this wind picked up and he was struggling to avoid vomiting on the plane. And as we were on the tarmac, it was swinging around like, like this. So it is, um,

[00:33:21] um, you don't go there for the weather in winter. Yeah. Fu hasn't been coming to the nationals that much either. No, I believe he went to Las Vegas. he was. And actually my Chinese friends himself and Mr. Jerry Lee, another good friend. They won the two events at the end. It's Swiss and the rising. Oh, wow. A very successful tournament.

[00:33:45] I see them a lot in China and their domestic scene is actually quite big. And I do get hired to go over there twice a year. Three, if we actually come in the top four, which is very, very difficult because you can see how good they are now in China. Uh, and I guess that's part of the reason. And the other thing is a lot of the Chinese players who is a big exception, they don't speak English much at all. So,

[00:34:15] so that's why their, their own domestic scene is the biggest thing for them. But, but I, but the Rimsteads were on my team in Iceland. And, uh, I think they were saying that their Chinese, uh, tournament got canceled. That's supposed to happen next month. Uh, I hope not. Maybe, maybe their sponsor canceled that. Uh, I'm heading off there in two weeks time.

[00:34:45] Cause I want to acclimatize and do a bit of food and travel filming beforehand. And, uh, nobody's told me of any cancellation. Uh, and I'm going food and travel vlogging afterwards. So I'll have to go anyway, since, uh, got like confirmation sheets as long as my arm. What, you know, I hate the thing about the thing I hate about China, uh, speaking of food is that, uh, that they have the, um,

[00:35:15] like the, the fish, they serve fish there and it has, they don't debone the fish. No, there's a lot. And they are bonier fish. They have some types of carps, which are nearly boneless. But apart from that, you spend half the meal spitting bones out, which I've got used to. So that's that, that's that ideal killer. No, no, no. I would say, I would say going for shellfish is a better bet. Then again, some of their shellfish, some places it's cheap.

[00:35:43] Sometimes it's ridiculously expensive. I can give you a great example just for a normal fish grouper, which is actually a very good fish without any, many bones. If you go for that in Canton or Hong Kong, it costs an arm and a leg. You get exactly the same fish in Thailand, but it costs nothing. So there we are. So it is a bit of a minefield Chinese food. And I don't like the pollution either,

[00:36:11] but thankfully we've recently been playing in places where they don't have too much of it because Beijing and even Shanghai now, I mean, when you come in on the plane, it's not as bad as it used to be, but you're still descending through this yellow soup as you come down. And the other thing is, of course, I might be on my own here. The beds are very, very hard unless you can find a Western chain. I mean,

[00:36:41] I've been to some places where I'd rather just mug a slab of granite in my room and sleep on that instead. Then that's not good if you're playing bridge, if you can't. That's one of the most important things in the long bridge event is sleeping. Well, if you don't sleep well, you're going to make more mistakes for sure. Are you a Peking duck guy? Yeah, I like, I like it a lot. And obviously being a wine lover amongst other things,

[00:37:11] it's one of the few Chinese foodstuffs that actually goes well with wine. I prefer the spicy stuff from Hunan and Sichuan. I'm quite happy just to have water or beer or tea with those. But I like Beijing duck. Yeah. And it's, I don't know if you have this in the States. They have this cheap, shall we say, pale imitation called crispy duck, where they just lob a duck into deep fat fryer after it's been seasoned.

[00:37:41] They give you the same pancakes and cucumber and sauce as you get for Beijing duck. And, well, everybody seems to be as happy as Larry with it. Once you've had the real thing, it's not the same thing. What about pizza? I like pizza. I don't have it very often, but unfortunately, and many of your viewers might not like this, I'm not a fan of the American deep pan style.

[00:38:10] I like the Italian thin, crispy base, and I really don't like a lot of toppings on it either. In fact, when I go to one of the few good places here in Britain, and there aren't many, or to Italy itself, just tomato sauce and the torn buffalo mozzarella, that'll do me. Oh, I know what I want to ask you about. In your YouTube videos, you talk about that you did a 12-week liquid diet.

[00:38:40] Yes. Yeah. I occasionally do that just to regulate blood sugar because it creeps. Once it creeps up, I get above pre-diabetic. It's something that you have to do. And I'm going to do that again after I finish my Asia tour because it's crept up again and my weight's crept up. So a little bit of counterbalance is necessary, especially since in early June,

[00:39:07] I've got a six-week tour of North America coming up, revolving around this Club World Cup. And my followers, well, when I announced it, particularly people from New York, were just salivating over the prospects. So I hope I'm not going to cause any problems with pubs overflowing or anything like that. Maybe I can hire venues or something like that. Like when you travel now, like I don't know, maybe like on your most recent trip,

[00:39:36] like how many of your muttonistas are you meeting up with? Depends where I am. If I'm in Ireland, it's nonstop the number of people. And sometimes they announce where I'm going. Sometimes I don't. In the smaller places, word gets around. And it's like the search parties honing in on which pub I'm viewing.

[00:40:06] Stuff like railway stations in Britain, an awful lot. Sometimes at airports, particularly, it's mainly people from the English speaking, the English speaking world. But it happens a bit in other places, particularly if I'm away for the football, some Italians in Turin, quite a lot of people in Madrid. And there was even a guy in Paris who said, are you Monsieur Mouton? And I said, yes,

[00:40:35] and had a selfie with him. So, I mean, there's some places where, if I walked around the streets of, say, trying to think of a good example, if I walked around the streets of Milan or something like that, on a non-football match day, nobody would know me from Adam.

[00:41:03] If I were traveling around on public transport in Dublin, it's likely I'd miss my stop at seven states because of people wanting selfies. What kind of, what system do you and your brother play? For years and years, we played a hyper-aggressive four-card major system, which was a lot of fun to play.

[00:41:29] It meant a lot of inaccuracy at high levels, a lot of low-level four-three fits, which are always a bit interesting to play. But also the opponents, because they're being pushed a level higher, having a lot of problems as well. And eventually, people caught on about how best to play against it and were dealing with those problems better. So we just stepped to, moved over to two, over one with better minor.

[00:41:59] But given we were having a lot of problems with either hands that, where you'd open one of the suit with a six-card suit and you were too strong to re-bid three of the suits, like something that's not far off a two-club opener, we adopted gazillion over the majors and we play a Mexican two-diamond, the 18-19 balance,

[00:42:27] basically to get those hands out of the way. It's not very good when you open two diamonds, although it has its random successes. But what it is really good at is dealing with all these hands, like six minor, three major, strong hands with six of a minor invites or light invites or light invites with both minors. And it's not too memory intensive, it's a little bit memory intensive, but I find it works really well.

[00:42:56] Yeah, I played paddle with Cedric Lorenzini in the Toronto NABC last summer and I never understood why people open two diamonds 18-19. I thought that was a silly bid, but then he explained that because now you know when partner doubles, they've got shape instead of 18-19 balance. Exactly. It's great when partner knows

[00:43:26] you don't have it and you've opened one of them, particularly one of them minor. And I mean, you must have seen people having to open 2-0 or rebid 2-0 with six 332 hands and stuff like that or open a club and reverse into a three-card suit. Yeah. Or over a minor, a major, bidding three clubs

[00:43:53] with like a 5-4-18 count or opening 2-0 with 5-4-22. It's all an absolute mess and it solves a lot of it. So with 5-4-22, you open at the one level? Well, yeah, use gazillion or if it's five diamonds, four clubs. Then play a diamond, a major two clubs as forcing. I play a bit with

[00:44:21] Diego Brenner from Spain and when I do, it's like three solid days of learning very complicated Italian sequences, which are good, but are extremely memory intensive. Or with Justin, I just play two clubs as forcing and it does mean that sometimes you have to, if nobody bids, we have played the odd two diamonds in a 5-1 fit because part is like

[00:44:51] 4-5-1-3 and it goes a diamond, a half two clubs. He has to be two diamonds and if you can't move over that and nobody's come in with spades, then okay, you're going to play and that's not the worst thing in the world of 5-1 diamonds as opposed to a 4-3 club. Obviously, at pairs it is, but it works quite, it's quite simple and it works pretty well. What's your relationship like with your brother? Like your bridge partners?

[00:45:21] Yeah, not especially close. We are twins and there are fraternal twins and identical, we're not identical and we kind of go our own ways. Some of it conscious on my part when I was younger because I hated being clothed in the same clothing and always being introduced as the twins and I'd rather not be half a person if you can see what I mean. Yeah. So I've developed my own

[00:45:50] very distinct lifestyle. Did you go to the same schools? Yes. Different classes. So through like high school or university? Yeah, not university. I didn't last very long in university. He has a degree. I don't know why academia put me off. Maybe I just chose the wrong things to study. But, I mean, if I could wind the clock back,

[00:46:19] if such a course exists, I'd love to do photography in Spanish. Having been somebody who was, I don't know whether you'd call it lazy, who didn't apply himself, didn't like it. I write left-handed like this, so I could never even finish an exam because in those days you had to hand-write everything. So, having not been a great success academically, I got good enough grades to get to university. But,

[00:46:48] in later life, I spent a tonne of my own money and time learning Spanish both in Britain and Spain and obviously applying myself well and enjoying it. Also learning, obviously I don't know that much, but learning stuff about photography and filming. Again, love reading as much as I can and trying to improve myself all the time. And it's in marked contrast to how I was when I was a teenager. I guess maybe

[00:47:18] you just don't know what you want to do at that age. What platform do you use to edit your videos? Very simple. I just use iMovie on the MacBook Pro. I know a lot of people talk about all these fancy programs like Final Cut or something from a DB. There are quite a few of them on the market, but I'm struggling to think what they could do for what are supposed to be raw homemade videos that I can't do

[00:47:47] on iMovie. Obviously, having used iMovie a lot, I guess I could probably learn how to use particularly Final Cut in not too much time. But some experienced vloggers out there with hundreds of thousands of followers and even into seven figures said they bought it and it just was completely unnecessary. Is your amount of followers

[00:48:17] on YouTube, is it monetizable on YouTube? It is, but it's nowhere near Instagram. Instagram's like 144,000 and very close to 20,000 on YouTube. I wish I could flip them because that would be more financially rewarding, but it is what it is and it is going up all the time as I think it's mainly to do with people just not being aware of the channel of it, not popping up in their suggestions

[00:48:46] because usually when it does, they write in the comments, oh, I never knew, oh, I like this vlog, I'm going to subscribe to you and everything. Those subscriptions aren't everything. Watching more of the video is more important. Have you been on any other podcasts? Quite a few, yes. There's a very good one in England run by a TV

[00:49:17] personality. Oh, I've forgotten the name of the podcast, but it's about where you design your ideal pub, the beers you'd have in, what you'd have on the jukebox and who your celebrity guests would be. I think you chose two guests. I can't remember whether there were two people you had to bar as well at the front door, but it's a very, very good pod. And I went down to a studio in London

[00:49:45] and as soon as I mentioned the beers you have in, a little bell rang and they appeared all of a sudden. Been on a couple of Irish pods as well and a couple Manchester-based ones. I try to appear in all of them that I can, but from somebody who, well, three years ago had loads of time on his hands, now it's like

[00:50:15] every day is rammed with something, whether it's editing or going somewhere to taste beer or food or whether it's a football match, it's non-stop and to the point where on some of the railway services I use in Britain, I've ended up posing for selfies with the conductors because there's a see-be-show office and oh yeah, I've seen you on Instagram and YouTube.

[00:50:46] So they call you Mutton generally? Yeah, sometimes Prime and sometimes they ask what my real name is so I tell them and I know one of them particularly well because I travel a lot between Bristol and Manchester and he works on the trains at least in the portion between Bristol and Birmingham and he often doesn't attend to his other duties because he's asking where I've been and where's new and everything

[00:51:16] like that and then suddenly the train's about to pull in somewhere and he has to dash off and start checking people's tickets and things. I asked Zia about you and he told me that his non-playing son Bridges' son wanted him to introduce you to him. Okay, be delighted. I know of him and who he is but I think I've seen him at one tournament but never played a board against.

[00:51:45] Well, no, I think this must be Ruffy because, or Ruffy, I think Zane actually plays Bridges. He's fed up with some of the Nationals in the US. Okay, but the other one doesn't play Bridges. But he wants to be introduced. Okay, delighted. Always happy to meet people and pose for selfies What does your good lady think about your celebrity? She likes it and she's

[00:52:15] always excited to see people coming up to me on the street and we went to a nearby pub the other day and I said hello to a couple of people I know through my fame and she was asked what's it like to be with somebody who's famous all the time and she said well I never get a minute's rest either because if she wants to come along to some of these things it's a hell of a lot of trouble as well. Is she a

[00:52:45] bridge player? Yes. An enthusiastic student of the game I'd say. One of the things that I love about researching you is that you talked about how much you love playing bridge. Yeah. And when I was in my teens I just got every bridge book I could and couldn't stop reading them and every time I

[00:53:15] played I couldn't wait for the next session to start and sometimes I mean when I was in my teens I really couldn't play that well at all and you get your usual kicking and 45% in a national event but you're still up for it again the next day. But then there did actually come a point where I was playing too much and it did alter my love of the game and now that I'm doing a lot of other stuff all the time I'm really

[00:53:44] loving it again and in fact it's a great break from what I'm doing. You know you can sit there just put everything aside and just focus on the 13 cards in front of you and do your best. I still love my pairs as well. I wish there were more serious events because they're always just one or two days unfortunately and I mean even the longest ones in the US now are only three days.

[00:54:15] So it's a pity there aren't all of those and of course I love individual events which is why I run one myself. It's great fun. The way I describe it is like playing in a top teams event with a partner with loads of agreements is like driving a Ferrari or something whereas playing in an individual is like having to drive a Skoda or a Lada or some old rust bucket and try and get it

[00:54:45] to its destination and I actually like that side of the game a lot. I've never actually played in an individual. Yeah you can get sliced up. I got sliced up a lot in my own event last year but I'm not trying to win it so I don't mind sometimes the wind blows your way and the skill is to play well when the wind is blowing your way. And I play some rubber bridge as well not very high stakes. You know

[00:55:15] bad day you can lose two or three hundred pounds or win it so it's a little bit you don't want to just play casually and not concentrate on what you're doing. A lot of it's the banter and the individual nature of it. I'm not saying it can ever be the most serious bridge but it's a forward bridge that I recommend people try. It's a bit different. Where do you play your rubber? In Manchester. You can

[00:55:44] play it in London as well. and I have done a little bit. The stakes start getting a bit silly there. I've seen people play for a hundred, two hundred pounds, a hundred. That's too much for me that is. To be honest if you're worried about okay on a one-off it's one thing but if you play there a few times and you're constantly worried about what you can lose I don't think you should be playing. Yeah.

[00:56:14] It's a dying game rubber bridges. I think Manchester and London are the only places in Britain. I think you can play in Paris and Can or Nice in France and I think in New York am I right that you can play rubber bridge in? Yeah there's an imp game in Boca that's pretty pretty pretty much daily I think.

[00:56:44] I don't know if they have it on the weekends and but the New York game I played in it last year maybe in the fall in September I played two days or one day that played one day and I think they've had they had like a couple games like a week or two ago but it's not every day. Yeah. And I think I agree with you rubber bridges. I love rubber bridge. Yeah. It's a bit like playing in individual in a different way.

[00:57:13] I would imagine. Yeah. That's true. I mean some of it is bridge you don't get to decisions you don't get to experience otherwise especially when you've got something below the line like a 60 part score or something like that it changes everything and I don't know what system you're allowed to play in the New York game but I mean in Manchester it's very very restrictive I mean basically you can choose weak or strong no trump

[00:57:43] everybody agrees to play stayman and that's about it. I mean there are one or two other things you can play but they're all stuff from 1960s textbooks so no reason to play them. For example if you wanted to play three no trump's take out over a preempt and a doubler's penalty well you're allowed to do that. Not sure why do you want to do that. I do remember when I started playing that some people thought that was the best thing since sliced bread

[00:58:12] because they catch some lunatics opening three clubs on jack six and a queen one and favorable look I've got 1100 most of the time partner was going to double anyway but they I actually they don't even allow negative doubles in London. No no we don't we don't in our Manchester game no negative doubles no two clubs for the majors

[00:58:42] over a no trump or anything like that so it's it's quite strict and old-fashioned I tried to write up a sort of more modern method of playing where you could make like a negative double at the one level two clubs over no trump for the majors and I a few less penalty doubles because the rule we have at the moment is that if you've not if partners not bid

[00:59:13] the double is take out so if it goes some like spade two hearts two spades pass pass around the table that would be take out but if it goes one spade two hearts two spades double that would be penalty and as you can probably imagine you'll be waiting quite a long time for that one to be of any effect

[00:59:44] anything you want to steer our listeners to on your channels oh yeah well just before I do that I'd like to say to anybody watching this that bridge is by far the best card game it can be a lot of fun the only reason sometimes it's not it's because people don't make it fun so I'd encourage everybody to play play hard maybe play slightly shorter sessions

[01:00:13] in club games have a drink go through the hands and make it a more sociable game again I think that's the way forward and some bridge clubs here that are doing stuff like that are finding a lot of success and new players coming in from what as you know is a game suffering from a massively aging population so I would encourage I would encourage particularly at lower levels I understand the top stuff has to be drawn out

[01:00:43] long and serious at lower levels make the game a bit more fun make it a bit faster and as for my own stuff I'd encourage people to visit my YouTube channel Prime Mutton and my Instagram channel Prime Mutton 2000 ABFR and also on my web page www.primemutton.com not surprisingly I have the web shop but even if you're not interested in the stuff in the shop I do write

[01:01:13] a written blog and months behind on doing my blog because of the pressure of doing a daily Instagram post every few days a football match and a long YouTube video but I will catch up on this Asian trip well I am grateful that we had this chance to finally meet and I can't wait to see you at the next bridge tournament I'm not sure

[01:01:42] if I'm going to be in playing in the Europeans I imagine you are not certain actually not certain I mean this big tour of the US which is non-bridge it is you know so big so many people have asked for it that I have to really prioritize it but maybe then our paths will cross and maybe we can meet and finally have a pint together all right I would like that I'd like to you

[01:02:12] know I learned I've learned a fair amount watching your your channel and your videos in preparation for this like I didn't like I didn't know what a stout was for example about the lines of Guinness like the fact that Guinness is better in Ireland that is that is sort of I had no idea about that do you think that's because they brew it in Ireland or it might

[01:02:42] be because of the water being different but I think it's mainly to do whether there is one important thing that people miss when pubs in Ireland buy a barrel of Guinness or a keg of Guinness the shelf life is about eight days you've got to knock it out pretty quickly and they do and they do because it's the centrepiece of every Irish pub except for in county court where they might have Beamish or Murphys but in terms of abroad the kegs can be sitting around

[01:03:12] for months and they've got shelf lives of months that does make a difference I'm not quite sure about how the pasteurization is affected but the biggest thing is the thing correctly the glass washing the lines the valves being tight stuff like that very very scientific operation and of course having people drinking it so it's just flowing through the lines all the time

[01:03:40] basically if you go to a pub and see loads of people drinking Guinness it's likely to be a good pint if you go in there and there's one guy with his flat cap and his mate having one every three hours probably a bad pint how did you learn this stuff? A lot of it's through trial and error going to places having bad pints talking to publicans in particular that always helps and also people in the brewing

[01:04:10] industry as well and also locals like when I go to Ireland I announce where I'm going and local people say well we think this place is good this place is bad so I go to some of the good places and the bad and they're usually right and they'll usually explain why a pub is good and a pub is bad for example I did a trip to Killarney recently and the one bad pint was at the big pub that's famous near all the

[01:04:40] big tourist nearest to the big tourist hotels and it I went in I didn't I couldn't even finish the pint I suppose in Britain I'd say it's a bit below pub but Ireland it was an absolute shocker and you just go down the road a bit further down the road a bit away from the main drag and you're just wading in absolute creamers down there oh man

[01:05:10] well uh love it love love getting love getting a creamer there yes and I will be publishing on my social media once I make a plan where I intend to be in North America at which time it depends a bit on when city get knocked out I'll still stay around and go to other places but the priority is the football even though a lot of people have told me about a brewery that produces

[01:05:39] an independent nitro stout which I'd encourage people to try it but Guinness isn't great way or even try it anyway a place called Jackson Wyoming I looked on the map and I thought this looks a bit obscure to me this does but if enough people tell me that it's the best things in sliced bread then maybe I'll go there I lived there two summers after my freshman and sophomore year at university okay yeah

[01:06:08] interesting place or oh absolutely it's it's like it the it's at the entryway to Yellowstone so Grand Teton National Park is right there and then it's about like an hour south of the entryway to Yellowstone National Park which is one of our most you know famous national parks and it was a fun place to live speaking of so I don't really drink alcohol that much

[01:06:38] these days but back in those days I did and I and it's probably like 6,000 feet above sea level and so so we got out there this is you know a group of like like 10 guys that are that are all just finished their freshman year of college and we got drunk quick because the elevation you know we were not used to that to that and so how high

[01:07:08] is Denver is that the same sort of altitude yeah so Denver is famously called the mile high city because it's 5,280 feet which is the length of a mile okay because I did play a nationals there and I remember I flew over with British Airways and they brought all the champagne and the fancy stuff and I kept saying no no no no I'm going to make sure I'm in top dip shape for the bridge and what have you and arrived in

[01:07:38] Denver you know feeling reasonably good and then about an hour later why am I feeling thirsty I didn't have anything on the plane and then my friend Mr. Fu and others invited me out and we went for three or four pints and I felt absolutely wellied after that I couldn't understand why and then somebody explained and apart from the closing night I didn't touch alcohol again there because I realized how it hits you yeah yeah

[01:08:08] I actually have a hard time sleeping at bridge tournaments a lot of the time like I guess because I'm finished close to midnight and then you've got like a 10 a.m. start the next day and I tried to say to organizers

[01:08:38] do you not understand that the adrenaline is flowing so much take at least a couple of hours for that to go down and out of your system and even with a sleep apnea machine which helps me sleep better with a little water tank with stuff spraying into my mouth sometimes when it's like that it's like three or four in the morning before I actually manage to get my head down especially if it's a

[01:09:07] really tight competition going into the last day yeah well it's been a pleasure Jason thank you so much for your time I'm really happy for your success and look forward to more of it thank you yes pleasure to appear on your podcast