Ep. 86 Drew Cavalier: From Nervous to National Bridge Champ

[00:00:00] So now I'm really freaking sweating because the stakes couldn't be any higher. I'm like, I'm gonna blow a whole national championship on this freaking lead or at least like a top five finish. I was just so... I thought, I mean, I probably thought three minutes, no joke. And they were getting mad and I was like, this is the most important moment of my bridge career.

[00:00:26] So... So I was just devastated for about maybe 20 seconds before I realized Christian just had the Ace King of Trump for 1100. So we got a top. But those three minutes were the longest three minutes of my life.

[00:00:46] I'm very excited to be here today with Drew Cavalier. Drew, kind of as far as I knew, burst onto the scenes winning the Werner Open Pairs with a fellow Huntsville, Alabama resident, Christian Jolly, who I knew back in 2022 at the Providence Summer NABC. And so I was obviously fired up for Christian.

[00:01:22] And there was another guy named Drew who was at Georgia Tech. And I actually thought that was you initially. Uh, it's Huntsville is actually kind of an interesting city because we have, we're the Space and Rocket Center. We've got the NASA Marshall Fight Center. I mean, we have a lot of engineers here, a lot of Boeing facilities, Lockheed Martin, Redstone Arsenal does all kinds of military contractors.

[00:01:51] There's a lot of smart people in the city, which has sort of trickled into our bridge club. Now we've got all these retired like engineers and scientists at our bridge club. Right. Yeah. Pretty interesting people, pretty brilliant people. And I, I mean, I've played at a ton of bridge clubs and I honestly think like skill wise, like average skill wise, Huntsville is actually pretty good. Okay. I mean, I don't know. Raising the banner for the Huntsville DD speech.

[00:02:21] Maybe we should have a competition. Brist club, fight club. Like how do you, can you expand upon that? Like why you think that? Um, yeah, I don't know. Just the, the, when you go to any bridge club, you've got A, B and C players, right? That's how they're kind of divided. Yeah.

[00:02:42] Um, there's usually, you know, the average, I think, uh, bridge club player, you know, they don't care to compete at nationals. They're just there mainly socially. Yeah. But, but, but, uh, but they're competitive. Some of our A players, uh, are just, I think they're a little bit better than a lot of the players I've played against at other clubs. I mean, I don't know how to describe it really.

[00:03:10] I learned, I basically, I came here in 2013 and I had already been playing bridge for five years, but I really got some good mentors when I came here. I mean, Disa was here. Um, she helped me out. I mean, Christian had a lot. I mean, in 2013, Christian moved here in 2013 and we were just playing together all the time. And when, when you learn is really good to have a partner who's learning along with you. Yeah, I'm sure. You guys are going on the same track. You get to play together. You get to try your new conventions together. Yeah.

[00:03:38] And if you mesh well, you know, if you can really fast track your, your expertise. Uh, and Disa was sort of just helping us. And, uh, we were kind of like, you know, uh, she was playing with somebody like a client or someone who was paying her to play and they needed teammates for the sectional. So we were like a free hire. Right. You know, and then we weren't expecting to get paid or anything. We were just trying to get better. So we got to play on a good team. Yeah.

[00:04:07] And, you know, she got to get some good teammates out of it. So it was kind of win-win and she would go over the boards with us. She would help us. And there's some other good players here. Um, not a lot of national players that you would know the name of, but, um, Larry Seeley lives here. He's on the board of directors. He's won a couple of national championships. ACBL board of directors. Yes. ACBL board of directors. And he's, um, he's really helped me come along. I mean, so I, I've been lucky in all, you know, all this is pro bono.

[00:04:36] I mean, I'm getting free mentorship from these players. So I've been lucky. So Disa is, uh, I don't know how to say her last name, but she's a professional bridge player originally from Iceland who lives in Huntsville. Mutual friend, uh, of ours. And, uh, I talked to her in advance of this interview because I talked to your partner, Christian Jolly from your big W. And he said it would be like a crime or something. A tragedy. I think he said tragedy. If I did not talk to Disa.

[00:05:05] Uh, so, uh, and, and she, one of the things she told me was that you guys go out after the game and go over all the boards. And that for sure. I wish we had that here in Charlottesville. We, we, there's not really a culture of, I mean, there are games. Our two big games are Wednesday and Friday at 1230 in the afternoon, but there's not a culture of going over the boards afterwards. And I, I'm sure that is, you know, I mean, I was jealous of that. We would go, we always went to Applebee's.

[00:05:35] I don't know why. Don't ask me. And, uh, I actually do know why. Because, like, the beer is really cheap. So, we would get, like, it would be me and her and Christian and a couple other A players sitting at a table, uh, drinking like a couple pitchers and going over all the boards. And that really, that was really helpful. It was fun. I mean, it was just a good time, you know. That was back when, I mean, that was like 10 years ago.

[00:06:02] But, uh, that really helped a lot. She told me a funny story about Applebee's, actually. Which one? So, apparently the Doobie brothers were in town. Oh, yeah. And, uh, she's friends with one of the Doobie brothers. Right, of course. And there's some video game at Applebee's called What's the Difference? Me. And you, yeah, okay, you want to take it over from here? No, no, no, no, you tell her. Because I always forget the details.

[00:06:32] So, apparently there's some video game, arcade game, I'm not exactly sure, called What's the Difference? Yeah. At Applebee's. And that, in Deez's words, oh, wait, no. You, the two of you have all the high scores. Right. On this game. Yeah. And so, Doobie brothers come in town. They come to, one of the members of the band, I'm not sure how many, come to Applebee's afterwards. Wow.

[00:07:00] And, uh, I guess you went to the concert. And your then girlfriend, like, calls, calls you up and said, did they play What's the Difference? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you go, I don't know that song. Ah!

[00:07:30] Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, yeah. We would, yeah, we would play that video game. I don't know. I don't know. It was just fun. We got competitive about it. And for some reason, this, I mean, this video game is still sitting in that bar. Yeah. And it's still got our names on it. I figured it'd be long gone by now. I mean, long gone. But anyways, that's Applebee's, I guess.

[00:07:58] How did you first meet, uh, Disa in Huntsville? I mean, she always was playing at the club. Ah. She, she, she was, she doesn't really do much anymore, but, uh, she was playing at the club. And, you know, when you're my age and you're playing bridge. Yeah. Um, it's not like you got a lot of people your age, young people to hang out with. I mean, a lot of my friends are like 60, 70 years old. Right.

[00:08:27] And Disa, you know, she's, I'm not gonna, I say her age, but she's, she's young at heart. So, you know, I was there to, I like to hang out. I like to go and have fun. And, and me and her sort of bonded over that. Like, you know, we had somebody who was like to have fun and wasn't just, you know, a retiree. Yeah. Went home and went to bed at eight o'clock. Yeah. So that's sort of why we bonded back then. And we had a good time.

[00:08:56] She said she taught you everything, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. So, I mean, I, I've had, I've been very lucky with the mentors. I had a mentor in Pensacola who kind of took me under her wing. I had Debbie and Michael Rosenberg when they, when I was in the junior training for a year. I mean, that was, all of this is free. You know, they want to get young people into bridge. And I've had nothing but luck with that.

[00:09:24] But you learned pretty young in Pensacola too, according to your bridge winner's profile. Yeah. I actually learned to play bridge when I was nine years old from a math tutor. And that was just like kitchen table bridge. I remember distinctly her like telling me, this is a, this is a scorecard with vulnerability. She was like, I have no idea what vulnerability means. But once you get advanced, you have to start taking this vulnerability into, to, and I was nine years old and I was like, oh yeah. I mean, I didn't know how to score it.

[00:09:54] I didn't care. I was just there to follow suit and bid. And you never got past like two, two hearts. And, uh, and then nine years later I, uh, was, uh, I was playing volleyball with my dad. Yeah. And some of his friends. So, you know, they were a little older, but I was trying to stay active. And one of the old ladies. You're a lot older than you are, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. He's 48 years older than me.

[00:10:24] And, uh, one of the, uh, I say old ladies. I mean, she was, I don't know, probably 60, 70 years old. She said, uh, you know how to, I can't remember if she, what she said, you know, I had like a math, I was in math or something. She's like, you might like to play bridge. I was like, oh yeah, I know how to play bridge. Actually. I learned when I was young. And then she said, well, we have a bridge club in town that you should just go come down and play. And so I went, uh, with my mom cause my mom knew how to play. Yeah.

[00:10:52] And the first like year of my bridge career, we were playing an individual game. Have you ever played an individual game? No. No. It's actually really good for new people. It is like you play with a different partner every round. Yeah. Everybody plays the standard American yellow card. It's a great icebreaker. And there was probably like 16 of us who always showed up. So you had like four tables. This in Pensacola? Yeah. They ran it once a week.

[00:11:19] This, uh, couple who directed and, um, it was, it was, it was a lot of fun. And, you know, uh, I just sort of found my, my people, my, my thing. I got hooked. And then I had a mentor who was, you know, she, she was trying to teach her grandkids to play bridge. She was desperate for her grandkids to play bridge. So she started teaching all these youth things. And then I just sort of, just sort of, you know, went into that. And then the rest is history.

[00:11:48] I was, I was just reading books and going as much as I could. And I was hooked after that. But you were 18. So you're probably, were you going somewhere for school or? Yeah. I was in college and, um, I was like, have you ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect? Yes. Yeah. So I was, you know, getting good, but I was thinking I was so good and getting better and getting cocky. And, and I was like, oh yeah. That doesn't stop by the way. Huh?

[00:12:17] That doesn't stop by the way. Right. Right. And, uh, I was like, uh, I was like, uh, you know, it'd be kind of fun to be a bridge pro. And my mentor was like, no, don't do that. Uh, you need to get a job. And I was like, okay. I kind of took her advice and, you know, that's not to say anything wrong with being a bridge pro. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:42] But I think she kind of recognized that I probably would be better off serving. Just going and getting a career and following a career path and just having bridge as a hobby. And I do kind of think, you know, I, uh, I don't think I would enjoy at all. Um, I don't know, playing pro bridge. I just don't, I don't think I would enjoy it. It would, it's just not, I'm, I'm very, uh, emotional.

[00:13:12] I'm not very good at, um, keeping a straight face, you know, like, and I would feel really like that if I had a bad board now I can just make mistakes and you know, I don't care if I let Christian down. He won't care. I won't care. So we have a pretty good understanding. I mean, I make way more mistakes than he does. So he, he's the one who's carrying this partnership, but he's, um, yeah, he's a good sport about it. Now he's, you know, one of my best friends.

[00:13:39] And also that, you know, bridge has provided me with some of my best, longest friends, the people I've met, the experiences I've had. I mean, I just went to Australia, you know, I mean, I played bridge and all over the U S you know, I've been, I'm bridge has just afforded me so much. When it, when you won with Christian, did it come out of nowhere? Yeah. I mean, honestly, the best, I used to be so scared.

[00:14:08] I mean, I didn't even compete at nationals. I was so nervous. I was so intimidated sitting down against anybody whose name I recognize because I'm one of these people. Whenever I'm getting into something, I'm reading like the history. I know all the big names. I know the famous people, you know, some people just get in a bridge and they're like, they don't know who Jeff McSprock is. They don't know who Eric Robble. I knew them all. I, I just, I knew all the, the, the pros, all the famous people.

[00:14:31] I knew all the names and I was just in, I felt like I was in over my head and I didn't ever have, I, I, I entered a few nationals and I was like, ah, this is, you know, I felt so scared. And then I remember Christian one time telling me, I think you think that these players like Joe Grew or Jeff McSprock, that they just don't make mistakes and they're going to be you every time. But it's just not true. I mean, they, you can easily sit down against Joe Grew and get a good board.

[00:15:00] I mean, the luck might be in your favor. He might make a mistake. I mean, you know, you, you have to tell yourself you belong at the table. You're good enough. Yeah. And I know that sounds more like a confidence thing, but, um, really excellent world-class players make mistakes all the time. Or a Saturday Night Live skit. You're good enough. You're smart enough. And God damn it. People like you. Right. Right.

[00:15:30] Right. Yeah. It's, uh, but that sort of unlocked a, I don't know, like, uh, a different, uh, attitude about the game for me. And I was like, okay, I belong. And. What do you think that was? I don't know, maybe five or six years ago. And I just started entering all of the nationals. I started using all my lead to go to the nationals.

[00:15:59] And, um, I still didn't think I'd, I'd win, actually win one. Yeah. You know, but. Yeah. Next thing you know, I mean, we, we were just having a good game and I have, you know, we're just sitting there and I was like, we keep having, like, we had, we had like a 54% to start off. And I was like, yeah, okay. Average, typical, blah, blah, blah. We're just two days just so for people who are. Yeah. Not experienced in the nationals. So this is the first day, first, first session. One of, first of four.

[00:16:29] Right. And then we had a 62% that evening. Okay. So that was, I mean, average, what, 58, 59-ish. I can't remember. And then we were in third. Yeah. Leading was Franco Besseggio and his partner. I think it's Andy Stark. And, uh, they had to drop out day two. Right. So now we're moved to second. Yeah. I can't, I, I, I can't remember why they had to drop out. Um, I think one of their kids got sick. I can't remember, but, um, they had to drop out.

[00:16:58] Every time I sit down against them, I'm like, Hey, you guys are my favorite pair. And they, I can't say that I would have won if I had, if you guys hadn't dropped out. So, uh, then the next morning we had a 60 and we were leading and it was just sort of like, we really weren't like playing out of our minds. Yeah. We were just not making mistakes. Yeah.

[00:17:24] And, uh, I remember Paul Linksweiler coming up to us being like, Hey, uh, do you guys have a hand you want me to report? Preferably a hand you did good. And the opponent wasn't the opponent screw up. But we shouldn't think of anything that was like spectacular. It was following suit and not dropping tricks is what it was. That's all you need. I mean, the match points of the game of like avoiding zeros. That's all it is. You actually beat, um, a local, a guy from Virginia.

[00:17:54] Um, and I didn't, I never realized that he finished second in the event until I was researching for this show because he's, he goes by JP, but he was listed in the, uh, bulletin by his like, whatever. I'm sorry, JP. Uh, I don't know how to say his name, but, uh, I, you know, I was like, Oh, that, and yeah. So then, uh, yeah, he, he, he was, they had a big game too. I mean, they like 65%. They were very close. They were on our heels.

[00:18:23] We got, we got like, I know we got a, just a cold top on the last four. Oh my gosh. And we got like a top with two rounds to go. I mean, look, the, the, I have, I prepared two stories. Cause they're too, they were just too funny. I'll start with, there's a preface to the Werner story. Okay. So in 2019, my favorite, my favorite bridge hand I've ever played, I was playing the

[00:18:49] imp pairs, which, you know, for anyone who doesn't know what imp pairs is, it's like imps meets a pairs game and like, you know, it's kind of a crap shoot. I don't want to go into how it's scored, but it, it can be very, uh, random sometimes. Right. So I was playing with Julie Arbit, who I play with, uh, of a lot of the nationals and I pick up this hand.

[00:19:19] Around your age, you know, young woman around your age. Yeah. Used to be in the junior program. And, you know, this wasn't just some club game. I mean, there was some stakes, you know, it was the imp pairs. So I had, I had a singleton spade. I had Jack and one heart. Yeah. My holdings in the round suit are the most important. Okay. Jack and one heart, King, Queen, Jack, seventh of diamonds and Jack, third of clubs. Okay. Right. So my, my hearts are Jack and one, my clubs are Jack third. Yeah. So I opened three diamonds.

[00:19:47] It goes double on my left. Julie bids six diamonds. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, whatever I'm, she just wants to make them guess. So the guy on my right bids six spades. And it goes, I pass. And the guy on my left bids seven spades. Oh my gosh. And now Julie doubles. And it goes pass, pass, pass. So when she doubles, she's saying like, don't lead to Trump. Don't lead to diamond.

[00:20:17] Find my ace. Right. And my choices are Jack and one heart or Jack third of clubs. Yeah. I really don't have a lot to go on. I mean, I've given this problem to so many people and it's like flipping. So I think for a while and I thought, well, I guess there's a slight inference that my lefty has the majors. He doubled. So I'm going to lead a club.

[00:20:47] And it was wrong. Minus 24, 70. Oh, my partner had the ace king of hearts and she bid six diamonds because she had two cashing tricks and she was hoping they would bid six spades and we could cash two off the top. Wow. I know. She's diabolical. And so. Were you roughing the third round of hearts? Huh? Were you roughing the third round of hearts? Uh, they were two, four, five, two. No, I wasn't. She had face king fifth of hearts.

[00:21:18] So it would have been 500. Yeah. No, I, I, sorry. I mean, gosh, I can't believe I asked, but that's a bridge player for you. So, well, anyways, minus 24, 70 was 15 amps the other way. Wow. And plus 500 would have been win 14. So I literally swung 30 amps on one lead. Oh, my gosh. Needless to say, we didn't qualify, but it was just one of these like funny hands that I like to tell people.

[00:21:45] So then, um, and I'm in the Werner and, um, we're leading after three and there's like four rounds to go. And I'm like, we're, I think we're having an okay game. Yeah. Not like a 68 or anything. Right. Okay. We had some good boards. We had one disaster and I have this hand. I have jack and one, a spade, a stiff heart, queen, jack, 10, nine, six, the diamonds and king, jack, four, the clubs.

[00:22:14] So it's like a, I don't know, a seven count something, eight count. And I opened two diamonds. It goes double on my left. Christian bids three diamonds. It goes four spades on my right. I pass. Now the lady on my left bids five clubs. Christian passes. The guy on my right bids five hearts. Pass. And now the lady bids six hearts. And now Christian doubles. Telling me to find a lead.

[00:22:41] So both of these hands dealt with me preempting diamonds and both of them had my partner making a lightener double and I've got to find a lead. So now I'm really freaking sweating because the stakes couldn't be any higher. Right. Like, I'm like, I'm going to blow a whole national championship on this. Oh my gosh. Freaking lead or at least like a top five finish. I was just so. Yeah. I thought, I mean, I probably thought three minutes, no joke.

[00:23:07] And they were getting mad and I was like, this is the most important moment of my bridge career. So I finally decided that my left hand opponent had like clubs and hearts because she pulled four spades. I had four clubs. Yeah. So Christian has like an ace and is roughing a club, like a void in clubs. I got to find his void.

[00:23:36] I'm going to give him a club rough and he's going to catch the ace of Trumps or the ace of whatever. So I finally lead a club. And it goes club and Christian follows and the guy wins the suit. And I was like, and I had to underlie King Jack for the clubs. So I was just devastated for about maybe 20 seconds before I realized Christian just had

[00:24:02] the ace king of Trump for 1100. So we got a top, but those three minutes were the longest three minutes of my life. Yeah. That was one of our tops in the last four rounds. Anyway, he probably didn't even need a double. You know, he was just pointing to torture me.

[00:24:30] Did he remember the hand with Julie? Like when you, you didn't remember it. I'm sure he, I'm sure. I mean, he knows about that hand, but I'm sure he wasn't thinking about it at the time. But he did say at the bar that he knew I was going to be tortured and he was enjoying it. Like, it was a horrible, but he had me covered.

[00:24:59] Um, when did you know that you won? Uh, well, you know, Larry Seeley came to our table right as we finished the last board. And he was like, did you guys have a good last round? You guys are leading. And we had just gotten a top board. Oh my God. And I was like, I didn't want to be like in front of the opponents. Like, yeah, we just got a top. Yeah. We're going to win. You know, but I knew we, I mean, they were in four clubs when they're cold for three. No, they're cold for six clubs.

[00:25:29] They were cold for. Oh, wow. Obviously five clubs. Wow. So they're like 170 or something. And we're like, all right, this is good. And, um, so I was pretty confident. And then, you know, we were just waiting on the results, waiting on the results. Like it's the longest five minutes of your life. Um, but we were standing in front of what the printer or pretty much. I mean, we were, no, actually I forgot this part of the story.

[00:25:58] Christian left. Christian walked out. He was like, I have to go. Walked out. I was like, where the, where the hell are you going? And I guess he had to pee or I don't know what he was doing, but he just disappeared. And I was like, Christian, you know, I was waiting. I was standing there by myself. And finally he walked back in and then the printer came off and they, they, they announced it. And, you know, it was emotional. Definitely.

[00:26:29] I mean, going from thinking you don't even belong in nationals to just being like, I'm going to enter, I'm going to try to finish top 10. That's, you know, that's where I was setting my goal top 10. And then just, you know, it takes a lot of luck to win a match point event. So, you know, I got, we got some luck and you know, the rest was history. I mean, it was the greatest day of my bridge career for sure by far.

[00:26:56] I'm sure you felt that when you won them, when you won your title the first time, which one, which one was yours? Was yours the mixed? Uh, we won the, uh, no, we won, uh, the border match. Uh, what's it called? I don't know. I think it was. Wait, did you win in Providence? We win Mitchell. No, we were second in Providence. That was the same day. Yeah. I think it was the same day, but I had never, I had never sniffed a win before.

[00:27:22] And we were leading after all three, the first, each of the first three sessions in that event. And we had a five handed team, so I didn't play the last session. And I remember going into the, to the room and my teammates had finished and they weren't like jubilant. And then seeing like our other teammates hadn't finished, but seeing like the team that won was, uh, gosh, what's her, I can't think of her name.

[00:27:50] Was it like Hampton or? Yes. Joyce. It was Hampton. Joyce. And, and seeing that team celebrate. And that was how I was like, oh man. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd never, I mean, I, that's the first time I'd ever been in the top, I think even five for a, for an ABC. With Amber Lynn on your team or the. No, she was on Joyce's team. And then Olivia was on your team? Olivia was on my team. Okay. Okay. Okay. You're right. Right. I remember it was the exact same day.

[00:28:18] Cause Julie was in the room next to us playing in the mixed bam while we were in the Werner and we were right, you know, right there. It was all announced. Uh, but yeah, that was a, a, uh, it was just a life changing moment. You know, it just, I don't know. People just like treat you differently. It's just weird. You know, people just, it's hard to describe, but, uh, yeah, it was, it was very, it was very nice.

[00:28:45] I mean, just think about the people who, who haven't gotten them, you know, like good players, like who have, you know, like, and how, you know, how big the difference between first and second is like, it's just, it's just massive in terms of. Right. Feeling, you know, just the, the, the, I, Christian actually. In the Silladors, which is a spring event.

[00:29:13] I can't remember what year it was, but he averaged like 65% on day two. Wow. It was fifth after day one. He averaged 65 on day two and it wasn't enough to win it. Wow. He was second with Tom Carmichael. So he had had that feeling of, oh, I'm winning this. Yeah. I'm having a huge day and then second, you know. Wow. So. But. You know, you did. And, and it, I mean, we won with like a 60 and a 57. I mean, usually that's not good enough for two days, you know.

[00:29:43] Well, you know. Well, maybe they'll take it back. Maybe they'll, maybe they'll, you know. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. You just got to have some things to go right. That's all I got to tell you. But I've also had, you know, really, really bad letdowns in bridge. You know, bridge is like. Yeah. So cruel sometimes. Yeah. Like a change. Just in. In like a second. Just in Vegas. Yeah. Me and Dan Lev. I'm sure you know him. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:30:12] We were leading the blue ribbons after day one. Oh my gosh. And didn't make it to day three. Oh, wow. It is. I mean, it's like fluctuating on emotions. And it felt like it did. My mom, I was staying with her because I was staying with my parents at that. And they were like, oh man, that's a lot of pressure. They weren't making it any better. Oh, that's a lot of pressure to be leading a van. What if you don't make it to day three? And then we did.

[00:30:40] But Dan was one of the most fun partners I've ever played with. Really? Yeah. I mean, he's just a fun guy. He's energetic at the table. He's fun between rounds. He's just a lot of energy, a fun person to be around. And he hypes you up. You know what I mean? You need a partner that's like, great job, man. That was an excellent bid. You're playing amazing. I mean, we were just skating. We were coasting.

[00:31:06] That's what's funny about that is I played a decent amount of rubber bridge against his dad. His dad is the opposite. Right. I know. I know. I know. Including in the last time it was in Vegas, Sam was my partner. His dad. Sam was my partner for that tournament, whatever, in 2014. And oh my gosh, I had like flashbacks of him dreaming me. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:34] He could be tough on his partners for sure. That's great to hear about Dan. I mean, when I met Dan, I don't think he even, it was in New York City. I don't think he was really playing bridge yet when I met him, however long ago that was. So I'm. I, you know, I sort of had this policy like, if I'm going to go spend money to travel to a national and take time off. I'm going to have a good time.

[00:32:04] Yeah. I'm just going to play with someone. Yeah. Sure. I like or enjoy and, you know. So, and Dan, I mean, Dan checked all those boxes and he's a good player. So, and then I think the other time I was going to mention that I didn't have a good day was the 2013 U26 trials. I was leading for three quarters and then we lost in the fourth guards playing.

[00:32:31] But Anam Teva, Alex Hudson was my partner and Greg Herman, if you know him. Yeah, sure. You know, we were leading, I'm sorry, we were winning after three for the USA two spot. I mean, the USA one team was like the Groshek brothers and Owen Lean and Zach Breskal and Adam Kaplan. It was all these like just elite. Yeah. Juniors. Yeah. And so we were all competing for USA two, the rest of us. Right.

[00:33:01] And we were, again, we were leading after three quarters. And then who I think it's the bridge guy who writes for the New York Times. Like, I don't think it's Barry Regal, but it was a guy named Philip Adler or something. Yeah. Yeah. He wrote up a hand that I misplayed. So the only time I've ever gotten in the New York Times is because of a hand I misplayed. Oh my gosh. I was like, why did they put that in there? Did he name you? They had to put something. Huh? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:33:30] But it was really my opponent, my West counterpart found a better line. And, you know, and it was crazy. That event, the coolest thing about that event was we were in Atlanta. We had this junior boot camp and with Debbie and Michael. And then we had to play the trials. And kibitzing me every round was someone huge. Like Michael Rosenberg kibitzed me in one round. Chip Martel kibitzed me in one round.

[00:33:59] Kate McCallum, Debbie Rosenberg. All these like huge names are just kibitzing me. I'm like, and obviously I was nervous, you know, but it was kind of cool to just be there. Who ended up beating you guys? It was, let's see, of the names. It was a kid named Edmund, I believe Edmund Wu.

[00:34:26] William Zhu from South, not South Carolina, San Francisco. Early Zhu, who I've actually, I think he's played a few more tournaments recently. And a guy named Jimmy Wang. They were, I haven't seen them much at the Nationals anymore. Mm-hmm. But, you know, they were all very good players. You know, they probably went and did other things.

[00:34:52] I think I've seen early recently at a National doing well. So I think he probably came back. What was the final margin of that match? We got beat like 41 to 15 in the last quarter. So it was probably less than 15 amps or something. I don't remember. I tried to block it out. Because everyone, all of my friends were going to Turkey to compete in the U.S. National, I mean the Junior World Championship. Christian was going on the U21 team.

[00:35:20] Julie was going on the Rona, the girls team. I mean, all my friends were getting to go and I wasn't going. It was, and I had already had taken the time off work. I was excited. Like, well, I'd taken the time off work just in case I won. And then I thought I was going to win. And then I was the one who got left behind. It was a low of my bridge career for sure. But it did motivate me to, you know, up my game. Is that the only time you played the Juniors? Yeah. You were too old after that?

[00:35:48] Well, I was 23 when that happened. But I, I don't know. I just sort of didn't compete again, I guess, after that. I was, I wouldn't say I was depressed or anything, but I just, it left a bad taste in my mouth at the time. And I, I, maybe, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what happened, to be honest with you.

[00:36:15] But, but yeah, that was only the really time that I competed in the U.S. Junior Trials. Have you ever played the, uh, Open Trials? No. And I would love to. Uh, long-term goals for me are, I, you know, I would like to win a long-form knockout like a Vander, uh, Vanderbilt or a World Championship in anything. Just to be a World Champion. I mean, not a, it could be anything. Mixed pairs. Just to say I have a World Champion. Yeah, for sure. Would be cool. Definitely.

[00:36:45] Yeah. How did you and Alex Hudson get paired up? Uh, just random. I think Debbie cooked that one up. I mean, they identified our skill levels and then they sort of, Christian and I probably should have played together. But, because we were a regular partnership, but they wanted us to, him to play U21 because he was, he was like 19 at the time or something.

[00:37:10] And he was playing with, uh, I don't know, Kevin Rosenberg and, uh, Ben Christensen. He was on that team. And they were really good. Mm-hmm. So, they broke us up. And they put me in with Alex. And Alex, I mean, Alex is very good. Yeah. Yeah, he was great to play with. Yeah. He was on my trials team one time, actually. Hell yeah. We did not get it done. Well.

[00:37:37] He wasn't my partner, but, uh, he played with Peter Boyd Bowman. And, uh, Adam G was my partner, Adam Groszak. And, uh, there was another sponsor, Bart. That's his last name. And he played with Argent. And, uh, we did not make it out of the round robin. I've never won a match in the trials. I've made it out of the round robin a couple of times, but never won a match. That is a really tough event. It's a great event. I love it.

[00:38:07] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I never played it. I just, so it's hard for me to say it's tough, but I just, I'd heard how tough it is. And it's cool because now they have the tablets. And so they have like all the bid. You get a full record of the bidding in play. Oh, right. Because you're playing on a computer. So, uh, you get a. Oh, yeah. That's right. Yeah. You can compare against everybody. And there's, it's just, I don't know how you would cheat also. Like, uh. Because you're in, you're just in separate hotel rooms.

[00:38:34] You're with your screen mate in, uh, in the hotel room. Uh, Jolly told me that the first time you guys played together, maybe it was the first board out. He had like Ace, King, Jack, fourth in the dummy, I think, in a side suit and like three small in his hand. And, uh. Yeah. And, uh.

[00:39:00] And they love that suit and he, he, he put in the jack and he didn't think too much for that. Right. Well, yeah, they returned and gave him a rough. They went queen rough. And I was like, yeah, you can, uh, you can wait to take that finesse if you draw Trump's first. He's like, oh, that's the only thing I ever taught him. After that, he passed me up.

[00:39:27] I mean, Jolly, you know, he is one of the, not only smartest people I know, but just naturally talented bridge players. We were playing bridge for six months and we were playing in a national and we had like a 60%. I, I had been playing for five years. Yeah. So I felt like I was teaching him, but I was, it was folly to think that he was just catching on everything quick, quick, quick, quick, quick. I mean, and he made some truly amazing plays.

[00:39:56] One time we were playing in, uh, the fast fairs in 2013 and I had eight solid clubs missing the Jack and, uh, not much else. I opened a club and the guy on my left doubled and Christian bid something and, uh, it went past and I bid all of two clubs with this eight solid. And the guy on my left doubled again. And then Christian bid three, no Trump.

[00:40:22] And, uh, I was like, well, I bid only two clubs, so he should be making three in a toe because I have eight tricks. And, uh, he had a singleton opposite my eight solid missing the Jack and he finessed for the Jack. And it was person on my left that avoid. He picked up Jack fourth and I was like, holy crap.

[00:40:48] That's one of those plays that Disa, Disa taught me like, uh, that, you know, you realize in 10 seconds what you have to do and it takes you two minutes to build up the ball to actually do it. That's what Disa said? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she had a play like that where she had to finesse for a Jack and a grand and she, and some, I think someone told her that, Hey, yeah, you probably realized you had to do that within 10 seconds.

[00:41:15] And then finally two minutes later, you built up the courage to actually do it. It was, I was, I was looking for my phone because I wanted to read exactly what he said because it was confusing. Cause he said, he said this bit about, you know, I stuck in the Jack. They won the queen, gave their partner a rough. And he asked me why. So this is the, you know, that this is verbatim now. And he asked me why I didn't take a delayed finesse. Then we couldn't stop playing together.

[00:41:44] And so I was like, yeah, wait a second. That doesn't sound like, like, I feel like he jumped ahead somewhere because that doesn't sound like how you cannot stop playing together. Yeah. That might end the partnership early. Like that didn't seem like a good thing. Right? No, I mean, we were, he was in college and we were playing pretty much five days a week at the local bridge club. Oh. Uh, and I was in training. He was playing.

[00:42:14] Yeah. He was, he was in college and, uh, we just played in every club game we could and we were learning together, which really helps develop that bidding logic and stuff. So yeah. Yeah. And actually I just remembered one of my favorite bridge hands. We, we agreed to play a four, no Trump opening as a bid your lowest specific ace. Okay. So you've got some powerhouse. You just want partner to bid whatever ace they have.

[00:42:43] And you might have a grand or something. So I pick up 21 high card points. Some, some two no Trump opener. And, uh, when I had the stiff king of hearts, specifically the stiff king, very important. And Christian opens for no Trump. And I have 21 points. Wow. And I'm like, what? I'm like, what is, he wants to know what my lowest ace is or whatever. I have everything. You bid seven no. So I bid seven no, right?

[00:43:13] You bid one. You bid one. The ace of hearts. It's a very bad bid. He had 11 hearts. Oh my God. Ace queen, Jack.

[00:43:39] And he needs the king to overtake with the ace to get his tricks, but he needs to be in seven hearts. But he, I put her in seven no. And now the contract is like sketchy because thankfully I had the stiff king and not the stiff ace because then we'd have been down a lot. At the other table, the guy opened six hearts and they told me the lady thought for two minutes before she bid seven.

[00:44:08] You're running her open six hearts and you've got like three aces and the king of trumps. I mean, I would have been seven instantly. But yeah, it was, I didn't, I really didn't think it through. I mean, I was like, what, what could he have over there? Yeah. It's like, what, what's your lowest ace? Yeah. I was like going through my head. I was like, does he have the minors? Did he forget our agreement for no opening the minors? I was like, I have 21 eyes here. Yeah.

[00:44:37] That is kind of hard to imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was a crazy board. Are you playing with him in Memphis? No. I'm playing with, I'm playing NAPs with a district 10 guy and then Platinum's with a district 10 guy. And then I'm playing the mix with someone. And then I'm playing the last four days with the junior. So no Christian.

[00:45:07] But I'm sure we'll, I mean, well, I'm sure we'll play together again. We just didn't hook up this time. He said you guys took some time off. Yeah. And he, he didn't go to Vegas either. Um, so, and it's hard, like, you know, she, he's been working, uh, nonstop at his job. You know, it's hard for him to build up our, when we won the Werner, we discussed system

[00:45:36] for 15 minutes beforehand. And that was the only system discussion we had. Everyone thinks we have this complicated system because we've played together so much, but we do not. We play like, we play like three things. Like it's real simple. And, you know, we just rely on, on card play. Ooh. So, yeah, I mean, we, it's hard to like, we, we enjoy playing together, but our partnership

[00:46:05] isn't what it used to be because we just don't play together that much. Yeah. I don't know what he does either. He works for an advertising company. He does a lot of internet advertising and he's, he's either covered up where he's working 70 hours a week or he's got a, you know, maybe as a slow session, you know. So. And he lives in Hudson, so? No, no. He, he, uh, he actually moved away from here a long time ago.

[00:46:32] He, um, he moved, he was living here when he was going to college here. Once he stopped going to college, he, uh, moved like back to Kentucky and he's been to all over the country, living all over the country. He lives in Michigan now where Owen and Julie live. Owen Lean. Um, you just got back from the Gold Coast. Would you, possibly the last, the last one. Would you, would you think? Yeah.

[00:47:01] So that was one of the main reasons I went. I've heard this tournament's amazing. It's the last one. I gotta go. And the tournament was amazing. The town was cool. Australian people are just wonderful people. I mean, they're just courteous. They're helpful. They're fun to be around. They like to laugh. They're nice. Whereas I'm like, you know, I'm from the States and I'm like, there was these people

[00:47:27] talking behind my partner and she was like, Hey, do you guys mind taking that conversation outside? This is something simple like that. And they're like, Oh, sorry. Yeah. They walked out. I was like in the States. I mean, they would have been like, no, talk louder or something. I don't know. Not everyone in the States is completely rude, but I mean, it's like, it's like 50, 50 on what you're going to get from people. If you kindly ask them to move, maybe they don't realize, but everyone in Australia was just like helpful and just, they just seemed like cheerful.

[00:47:58] And, uh, the tournament was good. One of the weird things they do, all their, all their pairs events are in pairs. They have like, I think they had one two day event that was match points. Yeah. But, um, all of their other pairs games are in pairs. Yeah. You know, Adam Kaplan and Matt Brown won. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that. They were killing it. They won the teams. Did they win the pairs also? No, they won.

[00:48:28] They won flight B. I know you're like, what is flight B? Yeah. They take like a big field and they take the top 14, put them in A, the top 14 B, and they go all the way down to like G. They didn't make it to A. So they played in B and one B of the pairs event. And then they won the team game and the team game. I mean, yeah, that was competitive. That was, that was some good bridge at the end. Um, and Adam Kaplan. I mean, I don't really know Matt Brown, Matthew Brown. Is it? I call him Matt. I call him Matt. Yeah.

[00:48:58] I call him. Yeah. Matty B. I don't really know him that well. I know he's really good. Um, but, uh, I've known Adam Kaplan forever. I mean, he was, he grew up in Florida. Oh yeah. That's where I'm from. And, uh, that dude is just a credible bridge player. He's just got a great mind for the game. And I'm sure Matthew Brown's very good too, but, uh, I can only speak for Adam Kaplan at this point. Yeah. I was playing rubber with Adam Kaplan and went down in a slam.

[00:49:27] That, uh, I could have made. Yeah. He was nice about it, but it was. Oh yeah. Big difference. Super nice. In terms of, uh, terms of dollars. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's one of the nicest, one of the nicest people I know at the, in the bridge world. Nice to be around. I've hung out. I, I, I've hung out with him a lot more now that I've been going to the nationals, but he'd like, I mean, he has the life I want.

[00:49:54] He just flies first class all over the world and plays in international bridge tournaments. I mean, what, how much better could it be? Does you, did you know ahead of time that they don't have bidding boxes or do they still write their bids out? I heard this, but they actually did have bidding box this tournament. Really? Yes. Wow. And I, thank God, because I don't even know what I would have done without the bidding.

[00:50:24] There's like this, like, you know, when you're playing bridge, there's like this routine that you get in, you know, and you, once you throw off that routine, like I played, I went to Italy in October for my brother's wedding and I wanted to play bridge for a day because I never played bridge overseas and I got to, uh, I went to a local bridge club in Rome. I found this guy. I asked the partnership, the guy who took my email spoke English, but he found me a partner who didn't.

[00:50:54] So we made a bridge card with like drawing symbols on a piece of paper. And, uh, my partner spoke, um, I'll, I say no English. I'm not being fair. He spoke some English. Like it wasn't like we were completely. Yeah. But I just kept my mouth shut the whole time because everybody was speaking Italian. I just sat there and, but it threw me off, you know, a little bit, not knowing what people

[00:51:21] were saying or not, you know, when you're out of your element, uh, you know, if you're not comfortable, it can throw off your game a lot. There's one little thing off. How'd you do? I said not so well. Sounds like. I know he had a 58. Not a winner. No, we were second. He was pretty good. Yeah. He was pretty good. Yeah. He, uh, he was a really, he was a really nice guy. I got lucky.

[00:51:50] They paired me up with a nice guy. We played the club. They had a lovely club, you know, and I just, I wanted to experience bridge overseas. And this, I mean, this little, this little lady like basically yelled at me, not because I was rude or anything, cause I didn't say anything, but my partner opened a minor. I went double and I bid one heart. I had a terrible hand, but I had four hearts. Yeah. And I, I bid a heart and it went past and my partner passed. I thought it was forcing. Yeah. My partner passed.

[00:52:19] I was like, Oh God, what's going on? So now my righty who doubled bid a no Trump. So a heart double, I'm sorry, a thing. It was like a minor. Yeah. Double a heart pass, pass a no Trump. Pass, pass, pass. Oh no. Oh no, no, no, no. I'm sorry. A heart. And then the guy balanced with a no Trump. Then it went pass, pass. Now my partner bid balance with two hearts. Uh-oh. And now this guy bid two no Trump.

[00:52:42] So I was like, so after the smoke had cleared, the guy on my right had like a balanced 13 count. The guy who bid a doubled and no Trump and bid two no Trump. My partner had a doubleton heart opposite my four. And we were in two hearts there for a second. And the little old lady on my left looks at me and goes, You only had four hearts. I mean, she spoke like perfect English.

[00:53:11] You only had four hearts. And I was like, Yeah, isn't that what I showed? And my partner was like, Uh, you know, no five. Like he understood English, but he wasn't great at speaking it. So he was like, No, five is what he said. It shows five. And she's like, Yeah, it shows five. If it goes a minor, double, and you bid a major, you have five of them. And I honestly was like, I'm, I didn't know that.

[00:53:40] I'm like this expert from America. And they're like, What an idiot. He didn't know. And, and they went down one and she was like, pissed. Like, she was like, you didn't have your bid. And I was like, I thought I did. But she wasn't nasty. She was just, you know, she, she, she just sort of jumped on me. And I didn't know, like that's Italian standard. You know, a thing, double, a major shows five.

[00:54:06] Have you asked any of the Italians to come to the U.S. If that's, if that's really true? Yeah, Georgia. I asked Georgia. Oh, yeah. She said, yeah, that's, that's it. That's standard in Italy. I don't know. Actually, I don't know if it's Italy. It may be Europe. I don't think it's Europe. Did you think it was standard in the U.S. that? No. I mean, if it goes a minor and it goes double, I can bid a four card major now. I would think so. Yeah. I mean, why, why wouldn't I be able to do that?

[00:54:35] I would be pretty, that'd be pretty bad if I, if it was five and I didn't know it. But I, I was like, I've always done it. I've always bid four card majors. Nobody said a word to me about it. I mean, it just feels right, right? Like it's free, but a major, it's the four of them. I, I, I played a, in the fast pairs back when it was like, they used to be, have a better place in the schedule.

[00:55:01] Uh, and I remember I was playing against Cragniac and Vince and, uh, two, two like, you know, great players for the audience who might not, if they're still tuned in, thank you for bill still being tuned in. Yeah. And, uh, and I had like a six count and like jacked forth the hearts and it went, my partner opened a minor and went double and I bid one heart and they made fun of me after the hand.

[00:55:29] They're like, yeah, you know, you know, I bid one. Yeah. I don't bid one heart with that. Like one heart. I feel like it's like, you know how if it goes like a, uh, a spade double on your right and you bid a no Trump and you should have like maybe eight to 11. Yeah. It's like constructive, right? You're not, you're off the hook now to bid with a little bit. So you should have actually something when you bid now, I think is the logic, but, but,

[00:55:59] uh, yeah, I definitely didn't. I definitely had nothing. You know, I, I just was bidding to bid and cause it was my turn. That's my part. One of my partners would say I was bidding cause it was my turn. And, uh, yeah, but you should have some constructive values. But I think it was like, I mean, they were making fun of me, but I, and I don't know, but I was like, I didn't know, you know, like I was like, Oh, I didn't realize I had that. I should have a better hand in that situation. Yeah.

[00:56:27] So it was, you know, I don't know if they were making fun of me first. They thought I was psyching or that. I just didn't know. But, uh, you know, that's the thing about bridge. Like you just learn things. It's just, I think it's so important to have a growth mindset in bridge because there's so much little things that you learn. And like every time, you know, every, almost every time you, well, maybe that's an exaggeration, but a lot of times, you know, that I play. Yeah.

[00:56:56] And I'll be, yeah, I, I have stuff cup up at the table all the time where I'm like, yeah, I could have done this better. And I should have known that this was right because of a, B and C. And one of the guys in, um, I, Australia was convincing me for one round and he was like, you know, I was watching you and, um, you get a little thinky sometimes. Like sometimes you were thinking and I couldn't figure out what you were thinking about. And he wasn't, I mean, he's a good player.

[00:57:25] I mean, he had, it's a legitimate, it wasn't like, you know, I'm above his head or anything. He was like, what do you, what could he be thinking about? And I, I told him, I was like, you know, I have a, a history of playing too fast, but I had to slow down my game. But also, uh, it seems like to me that every time I go over a hand where I made a mistake, there was a nugget or a piece of information that I overlooked and I'm, I get thinking when I'm searching for that nugget.

[00:57:55] It's such a great game. I know. There's always like, it always feels like I can dig deeper and find something, but I also have to respect my opponent's time and the clock and all that. So I can't sit there 20 minutes looking for every nugget. But I always, when I post mortem the hand, I'm like, ah, there was the evidence right there, you know, and I, I, I just missed it. Yeah. I went down in a slam today.

[00:58:21] I played it in a game on real bridge, uh, with Bart Bramley as my partner. And it was like, it was a competitive, our side of my heart. It went double. He did four clubs and righty doubled. So now I've had four diamonds. My hand was Boyd, King Jack, fifth, King Queen, 10, fifth, Queen, third. So I decided to bid four diamonds over, over the double.

[00:58:49] Uh, because I, more because I was, saw the spades coming and I wanted my partner to know I had diamonds for the five level, you know, like, or whatever. Yeah. I get it. And so it went pass and now Bart bid, uh, four, no, and we play kickback. So, uh, this is spade cue and I've not played that much kickback. So I was like, wait, why didn't he bid? What is this four? No business.

[00:59:17] Anyway, I bid five diamonds. He bid six hearts. I'll pass. And opening lead is the king of clubs and dummy has ace, queen, fifth of spades, uh, ace, 10, fourth of hearts, four little, four diamonds to the nine and a club void.

[00:59:45] And, uh, anyway, I had to decide if I'm going to finesse trumps and, you know, like how am I going to pick up the trumps? And it looks like my right hand opponents have stiff jack or diamonds because I had king, queen, 10 and in my hand fifth, but you know, like it looks like lefty's got three diamonds based on the auction. And so I played ace.

[01:00:10] I roughed the king of clubs lead and now I played ace of hearts heart and I took the finesse, which was wrong. Um, and it was stiff jack of diamonds over here. And I said, like, Bart and I were post more than the hand afterwards. Like after the game was over, uh, I hate post more than being at the table. Like, uh, right. It's terrible. Totally agree. And, uh, and he goes, and I, and so I think the hand that I gave my lefty, the doubler,

[01:00:39] I was like, they had four spades, stiff heart, three diamonds, like that. And five clubs. And he said, cause Bart said he was hoping that I would play, play the king of hearts, ace hearts, king of hearts. And, uh, and he said if, if they had that hand with the stiff heart, they might've bid five clubs. Yeah. You know? I mean, there you go. Right. You know? Totally.

[01:01:10] So. There's that nugget that you miss and you're like. Yeah. You know, like I, I mean, it looked like spades of four, four, but anyway, right. He had six clubs, ace, Jack. He, the, the king of clubs was actually not, uh, uh, it was from, yeah, just cause their partner doubled. So anyway. Right. One of those things that you have to do when you're playing a hand is like when you start constructing one of your opponent's hands, you need to build a, build a square as I say

[01:01:40] and construct that other hand and make sure that gels those two gel together. Cause you might be like, oh, well they've got this many, this many, this many, this many. Yeah. Now you've got to figure out what they have to make sure that gels with the auction. Yeah. Which it's hard to not, I mean, sometimes, you know, you just forget to do that and you're like, well, if you had just gelled the other, if you had just completed the other hand, you realize that that is just an impossible layout. So something that you always have to do. And I many times have gone down because I didn't, you know, do that. Yeah.

[01:02:10] But I think, you know, all is this to say, I think maybe whoever this person was kissing you, I don't know how right they were about that. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I, in Australia, they do play fast for one. I mean, he, I, I, I totally respect this guy's game. He's a good player. He just was like, why isn't he claiming? Why isn't he just playing this? Maybe it was obvious to him. I don't know. Maybe he was above my head.

[01:02:39] But I thought, you know, this is not obvious to me and I'm, I'm gonna take a second here and see if I can figure out the layout. Uh, because I just, I can't count how many times I've gone over the hands and been like, oh yeah. There was the obvious piece of information staring me in the face. I mean, that's why, I mean, I know about playing in rhythm, you know, out of, just, just, just in rhythm.

[01:03:07] And so I, I'm very sympathetic to like, you know, the more I, the more work I do, the better my results are. So like, I totally know what it's like to play too fast. Yeah. Um, and speaking of that, uh, I think maybe it's this interview. Okay. Because, uh. Well, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it.

[01:03:33] Uh, I'm, uh, like, I love your podcast. I love to, uh, listen to, uh, the people you have on, um, and, uh, keep doing what you're doing with all the bridge content. It's great. Thank you. And I love hearing that you love my podcast and you're now, uh, in the, uh, in the select group that is, uh, nice being a bit of guests.

[01:04:01] So we're very happy to have you. Thank you.