Ep 88: Ami Zamir – From Fishbein Glory to Fatherhood

[00:00:00] The most pressure that I ever felt, I think we played a Bermuda ball two years ago in Marrakech. We played the quarterfinals against Switzerland. We were playing the first day, everything was smooth. We were up by 42 or something after the first day. So the Bermuda ball is two days knockout.

[00:00:22] The second day started off, we lost the whole advantage, like the 42 in the first two matches. Then we came down for the sixth segment, which is the last one tied. And I liked playing under pressure, but it was like you want to beat them so much because you're playing in Switzerland and we were already up by 40 at halftime. You were like, okay, if things are going well in the morning, you just knock them out. But it's only your entire match in the last four.

[00:00:56] I'm very excited to welcome my friend, one half of the best pair in the American Contract Bridge League this past year. He was my teammate in the 2023 mixed world championships. Ami Zamir, he's... I mean, how do I introduce you? Like, I feel like saying that you're a nice guy is not a great...

[00:01:23] Like, I'm really happy to have you on, Ami, because you were... Thanks. I'm happy to be here. You really are a pleasure. It's always good to see you. I played against you in Iceland recently. And this is a terrible introduction. Hi. It's okay. Let's just get it started. I'm happy to be here also. I'm sure we'll have. Yeah, you had a great year last year. Yeah. Yeah. You had your first child. Yeah.

[00:01:52] You won two events at the summer NAVC. Yeah, that's true. Um... But, you know, it's gonna be hard to top being on the setting trick in 2025. Yeah. This is the better start. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. See, this is why I was nervous, because I just like I've lost my ability to communicate. Nah, it's okay. Take your time. It'll be good. Um... Where do you live? Do you live in Tel Aviv?

[00:02:19] I live in the city like 20 minutes from Tel Aviv. Not exactly Tel Aviv, but it's pretty close. In Israel, we live all basically close to each other because we're a small country. Yeah. Yeah. What's the name of your city? It's called Pedartikva. I've never heard of it, so you probably were expecting that I wouldn't have heard of it. Yeah, that's why I always like doing it like in coordination of Tel Aviv. That's...

[00:02:49] Because that's a city people know, so... How did you end up in this city? So we lived, me and my now wife, we lived in Tel Aviv for like three years. And then we... She got pregnant and we were expecting a child. And in Tel Aviv, basically the apartments are very small and very... You're probably familiar with it from New York. It's basically the same, like in Manhattan. It's not good.

[00:03:19] So we wanted like a good place to live in. And this was pretty close to Tel Aviv. So it was convenient with Noah's work and we were... Ended up here. Is your wife a bridge player? No, not at all. How did you meet her? We met in high school, end of high school. Yeah. The high school sweethearts, we would say. Yeah.

[00:03:50] And you just had a baby girl, your first baby in December? Yeah, that's right. What's her name? Donna. Her name is Donna. And... I don't know. I feel like I'm gonna say this. This is like... And Donna's birth... Yeah. She was birthed early. Like she... Yeah, premature. So she was supposed to like...

[00:04:19] It was supposed to be in like late December and then it was like during the fall Nationals in Las Vegas. So basically we were supposed to play the last event of the year, the Risinger. And suddenly I got a phone call like basically five minutes before game time or something like that. And it was like... Yeah, we are... We need to do like... A C-section like immediately.

[00:04:48] And then I just decided to go back home and in the middle of the Nationals. And now we are four months later. And what was that like getting that call so far away? Was it your wife that called you? Yeah, my wife called me. This was like... First of all, I was like really scared because it's... You're so far away so we wanna like... Right.

[00:05:18] We didn't even care about this. Like it's not about the bridge anymore. It's just like you wanna be there with your... Like with your wife when she is in this moment in our life. But... And then like practically what do you do? Like you're gonna play a tournament. You have a team. We were four-handed at the time. So you're like... Everyone depends on you. Like you need to... Like... You have a partner. You have teammates. You need to... Yeah. I was lucky to have a good team.

[00:05:48] And I talked to them and they were like, Listen, if you wanna go, just go. We will figure it out. And this is what happened. And they found a nice teammate and I went back home and... Yeah. I imagine that would be a very difficult situation. I remember finding out about it like you're... Still in Las Vegas and just being concerned for you. Uh... So I was very happy when I found out that you had a healthy baby. Yeah. This was the most important thing.

[00:06:17] The end of the day. Did you have internet on the flight? Like, had she given birth by the time you got back to Israel or... No. So it was actually when I was still in Vegas. Like, it was the last night that I was in Vegas. So... I video called her like right before and right after. And then I... Basically went like to sleep for two hours and then I fly back home immediately to the hospital. To watch some Viagra.

[00:06:45] I need to watch my partner playing a little bit all night and then... Yeah. So she had given birth before you even left Vegas. Hmm. And the thing that I was going to say that sounded like pretty petty was that like it cost you, you know, being co-player of the year with... With your partner, Oren. Uh... Yeah. Yeah. It was...

[00:07:11] My concern was that Oren is not going to win it because then I would just feel like... Because then I would be like, okay, I lost it for both of us. Now I just know I lost it for me. So I'm like, okay, at least it's just for myself because it's... At times it looked like we were... Someone going to pass us like from behind and I was like, that's going to be bad because then... It would feel bad for both of us. But now it's... Now that I know that I just lost to Oren, it's okay. Where did Fleischer finish in the...

[00:07:42] Because Marty was third. Yeah. So he was basically needed to finish first or second, I think, in the Risinger. In the Risinger. And he was leading like... Something like nine boards to go in the Risinger. Wow. Yeah, I was looking at it in the hospital and I was texting on, like, listen, we need to do something like some sort of... Some sort of back magic to her like because it's not looking good. But then...

[00:08:09] Some things came up and we ended up through, like, like, playing something. So we were... Wow. That's funny, man. Like, I've never been in a position where I was ever threatening to win Player of the Year. So I don't know what that's like. So the summer at ABC, you won the Roth, which is a three-day Swiss at the end. And prior to that, you won the three-day Life Master pairs.

[00:08:38] And that was after finishing second in the Platinum pairs in the spring. So you guys, you guys won the Fishbein Trophy, which gives is the most master points at the summer at ABC. Yeah. Yeah. So... Yeah, the summer was an awesome tournament. We had like a great run there. And the funny part about this tournament is that it's actually, I think this is the tournament that we fought the most, like, during the years that we were playing.

[00:09:07] And we had a very big fight. Like, we won the pairs and it was a great fight. And then we played the spin goal. Then we lost, like, the round of 32, I think. And we were just having a big fight because we were playing not so good and we were having a big fight. And then a few days later, we started off the Swiss and we were like, we're kind of okay, but not really. And then we had like a dinner of just the two of us, like a day before the finals of the Swiss.

[00:09:36] And we were like, we're talking for like three hours about everything that happened. We were like, okay, let's just go out and win the finals of the Swiss. And then the next day we just won the Swiss. So it was a funny rollercoaster of a tournament, this one. What was the issues that you were fighting about? It was basically just about bridge, I think. There's nothing like interesting.

[00:10:02] It was just like, just regular bridge stuff that I was like, we misunderstood each other. And we both thought that like the other guy could have made it easier on him. And at the end of the day, when things like that happens, usually both sides are right. Like usually both sides could have been easier on the other side, but they try to be more sophisticated than they should be. And we ended up losing the match and then, yeah.

[00:10:31] How much did you lose by in the springboard? I don't remember. I think it was something like 20. It wasn't so close, but it was like, we just, yeah, we just didn't play so well. And, uh, come on, tell me. Uh, no, we just lost this match. It always feels bad. Like you probably feel the same.

[00:11:00] Like when you feel like you are losing the match, like for me, the way I look at it, like you can win most matches by yourself. Like, I've always feel like I could be the one that win the match. Like most matches, even if we lost by 50, I look down and I was like, oh, if I would do just these six things right, we would win the match and we would be okay. And it's always, you can look at it. It's like, just take the blame on yourself. Yeah. But when you also, sometimes you just do normal stuff and you just lose the match and that's okay.

[00:11:28] When you play shitty and lose, it just, you feel so bad for like, for the team and for yourself just losing its. Particularly when you're on a sponsored team, I would think like, uh, I think about like sponsoring teams and I, you know, I would love to have you guys as my teammates.

[00:11:48] And I just think about like some of the money that some people spend on these teams and like, it's one thing to do that and do well, but to do it and not do well, like losing the round of 32 or something, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you feel like someone doesn't like, you can lose all this. That's the game. Like no one like expect to hire us and like win.

[00:12:12] Like, it's not like that, but like, sometimes it just, when you're not performing so well, you feel like you're like, not. And if someone hires us and at the end of the week is like, yeah, they were okay. I would feel really bad about myself. Like, obviously we can lose a match. We can do like, we cannot play our best game, but we want to always like be at the end of the day, the guy that's hired us would be like, yeah, I had a great time. We, they played their ass off.

[00:12:40] They tried their best and we didn't win, but we had a good run. Like this is what you want, even when it's not going so well to happen. What do you think is the most pressure you've ever felt at a bridge table? The most pressure that I ever felt. Uh, I think we played a Bermuda ball two years ago in Marrakesh. We played the quarter finals against Switzerland.

[00:13:10] We were playing the first day. Everything was smooth. We were up by 42 or something after the first day. So the Bermuda ball is two days knockout. The second day started off. We lost the whole advantage, like the 42 in the first two matches. And we came down to the last for the sixth segment, which is the last one tied.

[00:13:35] And this was a pre I like playing under pressure, but it was like you want to beat them so much because you're playing in Switzerland. You were already up by 40, like at halftime, you were like, okay, things going well in the morning. You just knock them out. But it's only your entire match in the last quarter. And yeah. But usually I like playing under pressure.

[00:13:59] I much prefer to play under pressure than playing like when we have basically no chance. Like we're playing a Paris game and we are like between 20 and 30 plays. It's like for me, it's no fun. I like playing like I much rather play like the most pressure matches like the last quarters, like when we are in contention. This is the most fun I have playing like this is. So how many boards was the last segment of that match?

[00:14:29] I think 14, maybe 16. When did you know the result? 16 probably. So we basically played and we were like, we didn't think we were going to win. We thought we were like, okay. Like we have a chance. I think like, but the other side, they play like really, really well. Like according to their cards, it's not even that our pair didn't play well.

[00:14:58] We just beat a lot of slams, like guest of Queens and they beat us. And after the match, the like Bukowski came to me and he was like, this is the, probably the best segment that I've ever played. Like, you know, like, okay, at least this is, this is the way to lose. So he was at the other table? He was at the other table. Yeah. Is he your age? I think he's one year older than me.

[00:15:28] That guy's pretty good. You know, that is his best ever segment. Yeah. What? Uh, you know, it's funny. I looked up your butlers, Bermudable and for the Europeans and you and Orin were kind of like, uh, in the mid to high thirties for both.

[00:15:49] And, uh, drawer and Elan, your Israeli teammates were both like, kind of like 75, around 75, 0.75, 0.8 for both, which was interesting. Like I was like, huh, that's, uh, I wonder if it seems like it was, would be more of a coincidence, but, uh, it was, uh, yeah, I feel. I don't want to draw a great pair.

[00:16:12] They both, all the tournaments that they play with us, they play like, it's not just the butler, you know, sometimes the butler is just like, you're not playing the good teams. You just do this, you do that, but they just played really, really well. They always like, I've never, they had both great runs because, you know, sometimes you go out of match and you're like, we've never went out of match and we lost, like when we were expected to win or something like that.

[00:16:40] Always they had like solid scores, good scores. They both of the time they play really, really well. I was very impressed by the performances. So just for people that don't know as much about this. So the Europeans every two years are closed. Uh, they're like the national championship. So all the European teams play and you guys, Israel plays in Europe for that, even though I think technically you're in, Israel's in Asia. Isn't that true?

[00:17:08] Yeah, it's a combination. But in all sports we play in Europe, like because of political stuff. But yeah, basically every two years we're playing like the top eight qualified to the Bermuda ball, but it's quite big tournament by itself. Like, it's not like just a qualification for the Bermuda ball. It just like, it's a big deal. It's European championship. Everyone wants to win. Everyone sending their best players like the big tournament.

[00:17:39] And so you guys finished, you have to finish, I think in the top eight to qualify for the Bermuda ball. Right. Yeah. And you guys finished fifth, I think. We finished fifth. Yeah. Yeah. We started off, the recent Europeans, we started off after three days, we were like 25 out of 30.

[00:18:01] And you know, it was just, we had a good run to finish like in the top eight pretty comfortably, but it was like, we started off so bad. And that happens. Yeah, it definitely happened. And you know, this tournament, all this, both the Bermuda ball and the Europeans and they are very, very long. It's like very long tournaments. Like you can play two weeks, basically have the same routine of playing.

[00:18:28] Like it's not even like the national that you have, like one day you play the pairs, one day you play the, like you have the same routine. You play three matches per day for two weeks and you eat in the same place, lunch, eat in the same place in the morning. It's just, it feels like, yeah. And then usually you're going to have some bad runs. You're going to have some good runs. You're going to have the, some matches that you feel like, okay, we are the best team. And some matches you feel like we are the worst team.

[00:18:57] And you know, you just need to understand that it's such a marathon playing this event. Well, it's great that you guys all play, you know, for Israel, that you and Orin and Jor and Juan play. Like, yeah, I didn't recognize the other pair and from the, I don't remember if I looked at them. There was, I didn't recognize the third pair. Yeah. They are mainly playing in Israel, the third pair. They would play within the last European. Yeah. We love playing for Israel.

[00:19:26] Like it's the best for us. Like we go and we play and we have a lot of fun and it's, we're really excited for it. We also like, we practice for it. We really want to win. And hopefully this Bermuda ball will win. Where is the Bermuda ball? It's in the same place as Europeans. It's going to be in Herning, Denmark. Okay. How's that? It's okay. I guess.

[00:19:56] And it's not as exciting as the last ones. Like we played in Marrakech, which was, it was amazing. Like it was, for me it was way better, but it's more of a small place. Like it's okay. How do you get to Marrakech from Israel? Basically most of the places that we want to go from Israel, we need to take like a flight to Europe and then go from there.

[00:20:26] Especially now with the, a lot of airfares like canceling a lot of flights. So now we need to take an Israeli company outside of Israel and then travel from there. So basically like regular people. But it's. So we have a friend in common, Adi Asseline. I don't actually, maybe I'm probably not saying in the last, how do you say her last name? Asseline. Asseline. So I played in the 50th Tel Aviv Bridge Festival. Mm-hmm.

[00:20:54] And I met Adi and her partner, Ilah Lavi there. And we hit it off. So they were like featured in the movie that I made, which was not like happy news to them. Yeah. Because they were on the Israeli team that lost like a pretty big upset comeback in the semifinal to the American team that we featured in the film. And so I met Ilah first and I told her, you know, about the film and she's like, what?

[00:21:24] But anyway, like I became great friends with Ilah and Adi. And we played the world championships as teammates in the mix. You played with Adi. Yeah. And so I reached out to her for this conversation and she told me four things. Okay. So one of the things that she told me was about the, how you had to leave Las Vegas early, which I knew already, but was helpful. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think the other three things were?

[00:21:54] Well, let's see. I used to play with Adi basketball. Yes. That's correct. Used to kick my ass at basketball like on a regular basis. So I guess this was one of the things that I love to watch and play. She didn't tell me that she would beat you, but she said you guys used to play basketball. And I know Oren, your partner, just in case anybody listening who doesn't know Ami's partner is Oren Toledano. Yeah. And who won the player of the year. Okay.

[00:22:23] So he loves basketball also. So one of my questions was who's best. So is he better than you in basketball? So playing basketball, I think we're both pretty bad. I mean, I guess that he would be better, but we are not so good at playing. Like we're, it's just a shoot show to watch us play, but we both are really big NBA fans. We really love watching NBA. So usually when we go to the national, we, it's in the NBA city. So we just go and watch a game.

[00:22:52] Like we really love watching. In Israel, it's not so easy with all the time differences. So we just usually stay awake like at night and watch some basketball. Do you have a favorite NBA team? I think I'm more like into players. I like players more. I like LeBron. LeBron. Yeah. So one of the things that cracks me up, I'll get back to a D, but one of the things that

[00:23:19] cracked me up about Oren, uh, cause there was article, you know, he won player of the year. And, uh, so I was reading his article and then he was in the well on bridge winners, uh, which I recommend that series for people who don't know about it. And it was funny to me that he said, like, he talks about like how he's really into meditation and yoga and stuff like that. And then he talks about, he really likes playing basketball, but it's really hard because he smokes cigarettes.

[00:23:49] Yeah. And I just thought it was so funny that like, he talked about all this meditation health stuff. And then in the same, like, you know, a couple of paragraphs talks about how all the cigarettes he smokes keep him from, you know, because they usually like have this long speech about how meditation is good for you and how you have to make it. And then he's like, okay, I'm going out for a smoke. I will see you later in like 10 minutes. So yeah, he has a great answer for it.

[00:24:18] I'm not sure I would be able to do the same. But he's saying like, yeah. He's really into meditation. Do you meditate? I'm not meditating. No. No. I'm not into this as much as he is. I used to do yoga. My mom is a yoga teacher. Oh. She used to, I used to do some yoga, but never got into this meditation stuff so much. Um, Adi meditates, I'm sure. Yeah.

[00:24:47] Adi is also a yoga teacher now. Wow. And she's really into all this like meditation stuff. Does she live in television? She really wants me to meditate also. Both you and Orin. She don't like you. Have you and Orin done any bridge today? Today's Wednesday, April 9th. Have you guys done anything? It's 1030 in New York City time. Yeah. What have you guys done for your bridge today?

[00:25:14] Uh, we did some cubit sets that we're, we like doing. We talked a little bit about bridge. So mainly like the thing that we most like to do about bridge is just to talk. Like, even if we haven't played a hand, let's say I would play here like with John on the internet. I would be like, and something came up that I think is interesting. I would just call him up and we'll talk about it because I feel like when you talk to your partner,

[00:25:43] it's like basically the best practice because you can see how he thinks, how he works stuff out. And then at the table, it's easier to figure him out because you just know how he would approach a certain problem. So even when we play like, let's say on cubits, we will play or play on online. We would, for us, the most important thing is to talk later about the stuff that comes up, even if they are not so interesting, just to understand how we approach the problem. And you talk on the sound like on voice.

[00:26:11] Yeah. On the phone, text, like it doesn't need to be immediately after, but we just like, we need to hear how we, how we thought, how we, that's how we feel like it's best practice for us. What do you think you talked, do you remember anything you talked specifically about today? Uh, yeah. Yeah. We talked about like, let's say you jump. What the hell? I will give you the auction.

[00:26:41] They open a club. I over called it hard. Yeah. Pass and or be two space, which we played like as a week. Okay. Now we needed to discuss like, what's the difference between three club, two no and three space. Like, so we don't want to do like a rule for this position, right? Like, because it's just going to be like, it's going to come up once in a lifetime. So you just want to talk to understand like, what's the most intuitive solution for you in this position?

[00:27:10] Like, because I thought for me, like, it's position that three space, like, would be like a light invitational. Three club would be just like better one that I just don't know what to do. And two no trouble be even natural ish, but like, any thought differently, you know? So we thought like, how can we intuitively like, figure it out?

[00:27:34] And so if you come to the table in a different variation of this position, we will be able to work it out. It was funny. I played a match online last night with like a, this kid named Ethan Derman, who is 17. And we've played some, we've got like some partnership. And we had like the auction, a club, a diamond, just us bidding, a heart, a spade. And then I bid three spades. I was four by one with a stiff diamond.

[00:28:06] And now he bid three no. And he said, like in the chat on BBO, he said, what is our fourth suit there? Because he had like 15 or something, I think. And I didn't answer because I was like, well, you know, we're playing this match right now. Like, and then literally like a couple of deals later, same exact auction.

[00:28:33] And I'm like, okay, I don't know, you know, because I never answered, but he asked. And it's like, literally, it's like, you know, it's not going to come. Yeah. So, but I didn't really have a hand anyway. I wasn't that upset because I was six, four and diamonds and spades. And, you know, he bid a club and a heart. So I just bid three no Trump after whatever he bid. But it was fun. Yeah.

[00:29:00] It's funny when things come up, because we also have a rule when we are playing a match and let's say something comes up and we screw it up. And we usually don't like to talk about it in the middle. Like, even if it's like a system thing that you just, yeah, you really want to like, see if you're on the same page. We usually don't like to talk about this in the middle, but we had one. And the same thing came up like the next few deals and we were like, why didn't we just discuss it like in the middle?

[00:29:30] Because suddenly he's stuck in the boat that is like, either he thinks that we need to do like what he thought in the last deals or I mean. I like that as a rule. I think it's good, like just sort of competitive rule to not, you know, like you don't want to give anything away to the opponents in terms of like that you don't know what you're doing. Yeah. I also like it not to talk, not to like, to be cool.

[00:29:58] Like, I also feel like it's good, not only for the opponents, but also for you, like, as a partnership to know like it's to move on because it depends on the personality because some people need to like get out of the steam and then to move on. But like we are like, for us start talking is like, then it's just getting, then we start like this dialogue and we can't get out of it.

[00:30:27] So we just prefer not to start and we just, okay, we'll talk about it at the end of the day or at the end of the tournament or whatever, we'll never talk about it. It's also like. So did you sort it out correctly on the second auction? Which one? The two-spade, three-spade? You said you had this situation that came up in a match. Oh no, it was like you, it was like irrelevant. Like we just, like in a way that it's not going to happen, but I was like sitting there and I was like, it's interesting if I would do this, like what kind of stuff, what kind

[00:30:56] of reaction would I get? So when did you start to realize, so was it at like the summer in ABC when you realized that you guys could win player of the year? Like when did you start to realize that? After, because we're not that like into it. We never, for us like playing in the US, we just feel like all the time that we don't have the points because we just, we came in there and like, it's all the time. Like everyone's saying like, we are the foreigners.

[00:31:27] So we don't have the points. But then suddenly we went off the summer national. We were in the bar the last day. And then someone came up to me and we're like, you know, you want the fish bun, right? And I was like, no, cool. Like, yeah, that's fun. And then we came home and then we saw that we were like leading the ACBR play of the year race. So it was like even more, but we were usually we're not that into like this kind of stuff. We just, we basically want to win. Had you even heard of the fish bun trophy before?

[00:31:56] No, but the year before our friend won it alone, Alon Biermann. And we made fun of him like a little bit of the name. Like we called him fish bun for like the next few months. And then we won it. And it was like, it was funny, but it was. So this was when we realized that there was actually like an award. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:25] Like when I was researching, like, that's a pretty rare honor. Like, cause it was talking about how you guys came second in the blue ribbons in Austin. Yeah. Which I think was your first national. Yeah, it was our first national. Yeah. And I guess that was your, no, it wasn't the first event of the tournament, but like he was saying how Cedric won player of the year that year, but Basis has never won player of the year, for example. Or no, he didn't, Cedric didn't win it that year. He had won it previously.

[00:32:55] Yeah. I think it's really tough to win the player of the year. Oh, I'm sure. Because you need to play all the tournaments. First of all. Like you need to play all the first tournament, all the knockouts. You need to do quite well in all of them. Like you can't really like have a bad, like totally bad nationals. Like you're basically out of it. And yeah, it's not easy. Some pairs not playing like the pairs games, the pairs events, like even the major ones.

[00:33:23] Some people prefer to come more rested for the teams. And basically you need to do well in the pairs and then in the teams and knockout. And if not doing well in the knockouts, doing well in the Swiss. And yeah, it's a long journey. I think Oren had 728 points. Platinum. Yeah. I just know that I have three behind Oren. Yeah. That's the only thing that I, I don't know how many points he had. I don't know how many points the third place had. I just had three behind him.

[00:33:52] I think Marty Fleischer had 714. I think you had 725. Yeah, just close. I was too behind. What did you guys say when you found out that he'd won? What was like the conversation between the two of you? Well, for me, I was like, I was happy. Like I was genuinely happy, but like Oren was a bit upset because they, you know, it was like, he wanted to, for us to win together and it was like, yeah.

[00:34:22] And it felt bad when everyone like, but it was okay. Like it's not for us. We always say like for the last like few months, it is like both of us are like, it's not like he's not looking at it. Like it's the point I was trying to make when I introduced you, you know, like that, you know, you're the, you guys are the best pair in the ACBL at the winning matter guest last year. Yeah.

[00:34:49] We wanted to win it together because we would be, I think we would be the first one. Yeah. I was going to say, I don't think many, I don't remember seeing somebody. Yeah. Like together as a pair because we, we only play together. Like we don't do all this like mixed match and like this kind of stuff. So this was the, the part that was like, that it was upset because we wanted to win it together as a pair. And then suddenly this happened, but it's okay.

[00:35:16] It's like, not like how we were competing at the time. And then it was not like, How much did it go into your, did you think about not leaving last? Thank you. So you can win this. I mean, not, not really because of this. No, no. No. Yeah. That's a tough. But so you guys had finished second in the blue ribbons.

[00:35:46] You'd finished then last year. You finished second in the platinum pairs. We finished second in the platinum pairs. We got to the, in the same one, we got to the quarter finals, I think of the Vanderbilt and we finished third in the Swiss. We had a good like spring. And then we, in the summer we had like the big one. And then in the fall, we were just mediocre, but it was good enough to win it. Yeah. What was it like to finally win though?

[00:36:14] Like, uh, one of these pair games. Cause you didn't second twice. Yeah. It was a great feeling, the best feeling because we played the platinum and we lost, we didn't even finish second. We finished second by three match points, which is for people to understand, like 0.0, like 0.1, maybe percent. Like it's means that you can just, every single thing that you can do is just winning three match points and you're going to win the event.

[00:36:44] So this was a tough one. And, uh, but we came in like really poised about this one because we were like, okay, we finished second. Yeah. We know that we can finish first. Like, it's not like we finished second at platinum. We're three match points behind. We just need to be just a tiny bit more focused. It's not even that we need to be way better. We just need to be like a tiny bit more focused. Just one thing. And then it's going to be okay.

[00:37:09] And then we, I mean, it was fun to finish like first for the first time in the U S. Yeah. You think the finals of the platinum is tougher than the finals of the, uh, life master pairs? I think so. Yeah. I think so. Like the finals of the platinum, you can easily be like out of contention just by you playing like, okay bridge, not playing like exceptional, like good bridge. You just be like, okay, you, you're relevant for the tournament.

[00:37:37] I feel like in the rest of the Paris games that you're playing, like even the toughest one, the blue ribbon and the life master pairs, you usually when you play, like if you're a top pair and you're going to play like good bridge, you're going to be like in the top and top. Sometimes you're going to finish like fifth. Sometimes you're going to finish first. Sometimes you're going to finish seventh, but you're going to be like somewhere in there within the platinum. We can easily be like, okay, it's not your day. People are playing good against you. You're just playing okay.

[00:38:07] You're not playing, you're not doing anything special. So you just, okay, you're 15th or something. You just average in the finals of platinum, which is totally fine. But it's like, where does your life master pairs win rank in your bridge accomplishments? That's interesting. I think somewhere in the, maybe third or fourth. For me always, the teams always goes ahead of the pairs.

[00:38:35] Because for us, like the pairs is more of a warm up to the teams, for the major of the teams. Like for us, like when we got once to the semifinals of the Soloway. And for us, it's like, it's bigger than winning the pairs. Because for us, it's like, the teams is always like tougher. For the knockouts in the States is like really, really tough to win. Like you would play day after day after day against top teams and you need to win. So for us, it's always like, also the Swiss, like for us, winning a team event is always

[00:39:05] like much more satisfying than winning a pairs tournament as prestigious as it is. Well, the money is probably better too. No, it's not. For us, it's not a lot of money. It's like winning the major. You want to win the majors. Like when you play, like when you're putting the world, you just want to win the big tournaments. Who was your Soloway? What year did you get to the Soloway semifinal and who was your team?

[00:39:31] We played, I think it was 2021 or 2022. It was, we played with Dan and Peter. We played with, also with Simon Eckenberg and Jason Felton. Oh. Yeah. And then we played and we won the round of 32 and then we won by five imps against Nickel and then four imps against Rosenthal and then we lost in the semifinals.

[00:40:00] But it was also a satisfaction like to win small matches like. Wow. Yeah. Against great teams. Yeah. Nickel and Rosenthal. That's tough back to back. Yeah. It was a tough event, but it was, for us this is more satisfying than just playing that. Did you lose two in the semifinal? Yeah. Yeah. We lost the street. We were blown out basically.

[00:40:30] We were down by 20 and a half and then it was like another, another 20 and a third. Yeah. So one of the other things I think that you would get about what Adi said, I think it would be obvious. The fourth thing I think is a little more obscure. One of them is obvious. Yeah. That's interesting. I don't know.

[00:40:58] I just need the basketball part. So the obscure one is that you really like chess. Yeah. Yeah. I like chess. I'm not so good with chess, but I like chess. I really enjoy playing. Yeah. I do too. Same. And that's, that's, that is like, I would say the exact same thing. I really like chess. I'm not very good at it, but I probably play it too much. Yeah. I also play a lot. And I feel really, it's really annoys me when I do like stupid blunders or chess, because

[00:41:28] I feel like you, like, I know I shouldn't do certain stuff and I just feel so bad at it, but I love it. Yeah. I love playing the one and I love watching like also the top level. I really enjoy this. The obvious one has to do with having different kind of rules for yourself or different eating habits when you're in Israel versus abroad. Uh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:56] So when I'm in Israel, I try to reduce or not eat like, eat basically vegan. And when I'm abroad, I'm like, I'm eating like whatever we want. Which do you like better? Hmm? Which do you like better? Honestly, I like eating whatever we want more, but I feel like it's a good like,

[00:42:19] like, for someone to like, try to do whatever he can to like, that it doesn't feel like it hurts him a lot. Like, cause for me eating at home, my wife is vegan. So it's like, it's okay for me. Like I can, when I'm at home, I'm like, okay, because we're into this kind of stuff. We like, like cooking the vegan stuff. When I'm away at the restaurant, I would go with John or whatever to like a steakhouse in the States.

[00:42:47] I'm like, I'm gonna eat like mashed potatoes or something. I just, you know. I mean, it's just, it does seem for as a practical matter, it seems like it would be much easier to do it, you know, like because of your wife and because, and Prince tournaments, you know, I don't like, some people are just like, really don't like vegan food and they're like, okay, I have to have my meat. I am not like that. Like for me, if I would go with someone that is like vegan for a week, I can go with him

[00:43:16] for vegan restaurants for like easy. It's not like I have to have like some certain stuff for me. It's the problem is when I have like all these options and to limit myself when I'm away, I, it's much harder for me than when I'm home. So the options are, you hate to miss out on the options when you have like the option. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Was that the baby crying? No, not mine.

[00:43:46] It was the other room. My baby is like, is quite, she's sleeping, I think. Otherwise it would hurt. Yeah. It sounded like an older child. Yeah. Then went out, you know, four months. When did you first start to see bridges like a, is like a career?

[00:44:10] Well, also when we played in the juniors or in the under 21, we always wanted to be like in the Israeli open team. We didn't even see it as a career obviously yet, but like, we always wanted to aim for the top level to be like playing the open team and to be like good bridge players. But then we started to play. We went to the military.

[00:44:35] And after that, I basically started off studying actually in the university. And at the same time, we started like hitting it off in the, we got some pro offers. Then we started to play because during COVID, we played online a bit. And then suddenly we started to fly and we needed to. And then I was like, okay, I should actually, I should probably choose like which direction

[00:45:05] do I want to go? Because right now, because back then I was neither here or there. I was like doing both this and this. And I was like, you need to choose. And I showed the bridge. But basically before that, I was like, I just want to be good. A good bridge player. You used to play with Amir. Yeah. I remember him from, uh, Leon, I think. Really? Maybe even Montecatini. But I don't remember.

[00:45:34] We were both in Leon and Montecatini. Yeah. What was the interaction? He just was, you know, like, I forget. He would come up and be like, we'd talk about the boards. Because in Leon, we were playing the same boards. Yeah. I guess we were doing the same in Montecatini. But yeah, he would come up in Leon and we'd talk about, you know, like the, what our results were. We did really well in that event. My team did. And, uh, I remember Oren, I think from Montecatini, because he was like jacked.

[00:46:03] And I was like, this guy's annoying. Yeah, Amir is a guy that you notice him. Like, he's also like, you know, like, you can hear him from a lot of places. And you, usually people notice him. Like, but it makes sense. It sounds like him, a guy that would ask a lot of people, like, what did you do? Amir? Yeah. Yeah. And he was in Las Vegas, wasn't he? Yeah. Yeah, he was in Las Vegas.

[00:46:34] Yeah. Yeah. He was my first real partner. Like, I had two partners. I had Oren and Amir. So I played with Amir and Oren was on this team with Lior, who is now Amir's partner. And then we just made a switch. And I went to move playing with Oren and Amir is playing now with Lior. So how did they pick the Israeli team?

[00:46:59] Basically, me and Amir started off like we were 13, I think, when we started to play together. We were going to like this project in Israel. We have like very good juniors programs. So we're going there and someone just like, okay, listen, this is Amir. He's going to be your partner, basically. And this is what happened. And we'll play like for the next six or seven years or something.

[00:47:26] But for the open team, like for the Europeans and stuff, like how do they do it? Oh, in the Europeans. So basically we have in Israel, every year we have something different. I don't know why they do that. But the past years they're doing pairs trials. But they used to do also like if you do a team trials, you do like teams of four and then the winners pick the third pair. This is also like something that they do.

[00:47:55] But last year and this year they're doing the pairs for us. And how many days is that? Usually it's going to be like two weekends. The trials. What's your next big event? We just came back from a long, a lot of tournaments. Now we have a little bit of a break. We're going to play next month. We're going to play in India. We have a tournament there.

[00:48:26] And then we have a small one in Romania. And then the biggest event that we have next is Poznan. We're playing in Poznan in the European Open. Who's your sponsor for that? We play with the English team. We play with Team Leslie. And Mike Bell and Tomasini and Ben Norton. I'm not sure I know Tim.

[00:48:55] I mean, I'm sure I would recognize him, but I don't know him. I can't think of him. Yeah, he probably will. Because you guys have had like the last four NABCs. I think you've had different sponsors each of the last... Yeah. Each of the last four. We're on a journey. But now we have a team for the next year. But yeah, we have a lot of different teams. Is it the same team as Memphis? Yeah. Yeah, we play now with Migri and Parag and the Dutch guys. Very Killian and Boznan. Migri and Malka. Malka M.

[00:49:25] You know that nickname for her? Did he tell you that? No, she didn't. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. When I played with Adi and Ilah, it was in Kansas City at the Spring Nationals, probably like eight years ago. And Migri was my partner. And we were like at the restaurant after the session one day, and there's this guy there. Anyway, Migri's a lot of fun.

[00:49:54] Like, she's up for some mischief. You know what that word means? Mischief? No. Like, you know, like some playful fun that could get you in trouble. You know, like somebody, it could upset somebody if they, you know, were not in good spirit. I love playing with Migri on the team. Also, she's originally from Israel, so we have like this automatic bone.

[00:50:23] And, but this is, she is like a lot of fun to play with. Also, like, to talk to. She's always like, she's always fun. She's very fun. I didn't know you played with Migri. Yeah. Yeah, I played with her. My first ever world championship, I played with Migri. Uh, and then, so we played the mix first with Dennis Bilda and Christina Madsen. Uh, yeah. So we did well. And then we played the open with, uh, Jacko and, uh, Burrell.

[00:50:53] Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. At least I remember that you played with Zach and, uh, with Yaniv and Michal, but I didn't, I wasn't sure that I didn't know that you played with Migri the partner. Yeah. Migri and I played, I think the first event that we played. So Migri and I met in New York. So Christina reached out to me and she's like, Hey, Dennis and I are available for the mixed world championships. And this was in like the fall or early winter of 2013.

[00:51:22] And the tournament was in the summer of 2014. Yeah. And I'd never played, I'd played like NABCs, but I hadn't played in a world championship yet. And so I was like, well, I mean, basically Christina hadn't quite ascended, you know, to the, like, but Dennis, I was like, Dennis is a, he's really, yeah. And so, but I was like, I responded. I was like, I don't have a mixed partner. And she's like, Oh, you should get Migri.

[00:51:52] So I went to New York on Migri's birthday and we had lunch and we hit it off. And I came back, that was in January. And so I came back and I was talking to her on the phone and I couldn't understand her on the phone. And so I was like, I'm not sure that I can play with you. Cause I can't understand what you're saying. Like when we're talking on the phone, but we worked that out.

[00:52:21] The accent. Yeah. The accent. Totally. So we, somehow we agreed to play the spring NABC, or we agreed to play the platinum pairs together. And I think it was my first time ever playing the platinum pairs that spring and we made it to the finals. And so that was amazing. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, then we played together for probably like, we played together in Tromso. I remember we played together some, you know, several nationals. Oh, we played a lot of good. Yeah.

[00:52:51] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She is a lot of fun to play with as a teammate. I know I've never played with her as a partner, but I know that as a teammate, she's a lot of fun. She's very funny. Yeah. Very funny. And you guys played a regional, you played a regional with Mike Levine and Hilton Head. Yeah. I played in Hilton Head, which was one of our favorite spots to play in the States. It was amazing. Oh really? I've been to the Hilton Head regional. A couple of times. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, I really enjoyed it.

[00:53:20] Like the place and then it's all, you play on the beach. Like this, unlike the US, usually in the US we playing only the nationals. So we play only in like this big cities that is like crowded and stuff. And suddenly we came into like this resort and it was like a lot of fun to play. So how many weeks do you typically play a year? Well, this year we are playing a lot.

[00:53:50] Like we used to play the nationals and a little bit of like Europeans and like six or seven tournaments. This year we were playing a lot. We were playing India. We have six or seven tournaments that are usually like four or five days. And we have the Bermuda Bowl and we have the US with the regional and we have Poznan. We have a lot of tournaments. I imagine winning player of the year is good for business. Yeah, he's good for business.

[00:54:20] But yeah, suddenly a lot of things came up. Yeah. So what do you do? I mean, I know you do QBids with Oren. Do you do anything else? Like why you play any bridge like with clients in Israel? Not necessarily with Oren, but we play a little bit. Like I play with, I have some guys that I play with, but not too much.

[00:54:48] Like I don't play too much in Israel. Most of the time we play just abroad and yeah. How much do you and Dee play? Now she's playing, she has a different mixed partner. She's playing with Roan Pachman in the mixed national team because we are playing the open. So she and Roan is playing there. But we used to play a lot.

[00:55:12] We used to be, she was my first teammate in the national team event. Like in the, we played in the under 21 and she was, she's like three years older than me. So she was more experienced and she was like the first really like good teammate that I had. So we were going way back. She's basically been there with me for the, for my whole journey. And are you playing the mixed in positive or just the open? No, just the open.

[00:55:42] Yeah. I wonder how many, have you seen how many teams have signed up for that? Uh, no, I, I, I heard that they are like, they don't have as much team as they expected, but I don't know how many like teams they have. Are you coming to the Pozno? I'd like to, but I don't have plans right at this moment. Yeah. I'm going to be in Europe for Adam and Emma's wedding. Adam. Yeah. I'm going to be in Europe for a wedding.

[00:56:14] Yeah. So I'd really like to come. I just haven't figured out. I like this kind of tournament. The European open. I feel like these, they're definitely different than the nationals, but they are more like, sure. Serious, like feels like more like with the screens and everything. Yeah. You play the same boards. Yeah. Yeah. They're great.

[00:56:39] And it's fun for me because I get to experience like a different culture, you know, like I think the coolest tournament I've been to is Tromso in the Arctic circle in Norway. Cause it was just so unique. Like I also like Iceland a lot because it's like you go there and it's the middle of winter and the weather's just wild. You know, like you're the sun doesn't come up till 10 30 in the morning. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing. Yeah. So, uh, those extremes I think are cool.

[00:57:10] Um, and when you run away with the tournaments, it's always more fun, right? You know, I, yeah. Especially when you guys are in the field, you know, like you guys are in the field, Kukowski with Kalita. No, you're just not stopping me. Those are real bridge players. I think we actually were the only team to win against you, right? Yeah, you definitely. We actually beat me the round robin and we were like, I think we were the only one because you won by like 40 VPs or something.

[00:57:36] But we were, I think we lost, I definitely remember losing that match, but, uh, I think we lost one or two other matches. Like that day was, uh, yeah, but that was sweet, man. That was, I'm glad you brought it up. Cause I was trying to figure out how to bring it up. It was a very good tournament. I really enjoyed it also. It was well organized and like the place is like, it's so nice to play.

[00:58:02] Like when you see the, for those who don't know, you play and basically you have a view to like, some sort of lake or whatever. And you have the mountains and it's like, you feel like you can just stop playing and take like a picture and any point of the day. And this would be like better than the other one. Some sort of lake. It's the Atlantic ocean. Hmm? Was it the ocean? Yeah. That's the ocean. Yeah. This is amazing. My favorite story.

[00:58:30] So in the finals, the Parag's team, we were up so much. It was three sets. We were up so much after two sets that they said, you know, we would concede, but the weather's so bad. There's nothing else to do. And so we played the third set. And the reason I bring up that part is because there's this Icelandic woman who was view graphing, who I'd gotten to know over the course of the day, you know, not really know, but just like had spent a decent amount of time around her.

[00:58:59] And I remember that day, like the wind is blowing and we could see the harbor like the wet. And I said, man, the weather's really bad today. And she goes, Oh, this is not tomorrow's going to be tomorrow's going to be way worse. And like, they literally closed the airport for the entire day. The next day. So the wind there was, it was like the craziest that we have ever been to.

[00:59:27] Like the wind, you could just, we were standing like in the streets and we felt like we were going to just like blow by the wind. And it was like different also from most of the places that you go to play. I definitely brought some pairs of shoes that I did not wear one single second there. Like that was like, all you needed were like serious boots. Yeah. Only the boots. Yeah. I think there was like the weather was so bad.

[00:59:55] It's at one point that Parag had a hard time walking from his hotel to the, uh, Yeah. It was scary. Like some woman that we know, like, her purse just was like blown by the wind. Oh really? Yeah. Did you stay for the teams after? Yeah. We played a festival, which was also a lot of fun. Oh, that's right. We played against you in the pairs. Yeah. That's right. You guys crushed us.

[01:00:25] There was like one board where I was on lead and you'd open a strong no trump and I'd over call and I had to lead from King fifth of spades. And I didn't do it. And I think Orin was dummy and he goes too tough. Yeah. I really appreciated that. You know, I really appreciate that from Orin. Yeah. Yeah. I remember the board, but I knew there, it was something like a no jump.

[01:00:48] You beat two spades, spade and a minor and you beat three no and you lead from, you lead from a five card minor suit into basically ours. No, no, no. I think he beat Stamen and now you got the four hearts. And now I led the stiff Jack of hearts. Oh yeah. It was two spade double past three or past four, something like this. Yeah. You just didn't lead from the spades. Yeah. Yeah. But he said too tough. You know, that was really, that's the kind of thing you love to hear, you know, as an opponent. Like it's very classy from Orin.

[01:01:17] Like you guys got a good result and it was too tough. You know, it was just too tough to make that lead. And like, it was cool. Cause he really, he knew the hand, you know, even though he was dummy, you know, like, that was a nice. He like told you afterwards. It's like, no, he just said it, you know, he just said like, yeah. Yeah. You know, it was, it became clear. Cause like, it was funny. Cause like you had like a stiff club honor in the dummy and Adam had the ace of clubs. Yeah. And now I know.

[01:01:45] I opened a note on me, the stiff, stiff diamond on her, like something like this. And suddenly the hand played like really well after you like, and if I opened like a minor Orin played the hand and he just lead to your suited spade. Right. That's why you lost the hand. Right. Right. Yeah. And I think a big part of the game is just to realize that some hands you just meant to lose. Like some hands are just too, like you said, it's too tough.

[01:02:12] Like you're just going to lose the hand just by opponents doing something good or you just, it's not by your style. Like sometimes you just do things that you're just, you really like believe in doing and you feel like they're good, like in the long run, but sometimes they turn out to be shitty and you have to accept it. It's like, in the long run, you're going to lose a lot of hands. Amen. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate, man.

[01:02:41] I really appreciate your getting a chance to talk to you. Yeah. Bad intro. I did a bad intro. You recovered me well from that. You've been a great guest. No, it's okay. Where is your wife right now? You told her to stay out. My wife, yeah. She's staying out. She's studying right now. Uh, psychology, like how to, I don't even know how to say it in English, but she's like,

[01:03:08] how to like help kids study. Like this is what she's studying now. So she is now doing some zoom lessons. Oh, so she is there. Yeah. She is there. Like she is studying now. So who has baby response? If the baby were to like cry and wake up, who would have to get the baby? So now she's with her. She's in the zoom. It's like online. So she is. So Donna is with her, but you're going to watch the U S trials.

[01:03:39] How much of that? I would try my best. I mean, the hours are not so good, but I lucky for me is the NBA playoffs. So we'll be up anyway, but I, I like, I love watching bridge. Like for me, some people don't like it as much. I just, I love watching. I love that. Are you playing? No, you're not playing. I am playing. I never want to match in the team trials though. So hopefully, uh, there's like two chances this time.

[01:04:07] I'm playing with, uh, Will Watson. And then our teammates are Kit Woolsey and Bart Bramley and James Holzhauer and Fred Stewart. We're like the 13th seed. Out of how many teams you have in the first, in the title? I think there's 16 teams. Okay. So how does it work? Is it like knockouts straight away or you're playing like? I think so. I think we play a two day match, uh, six segments. I forget if it's 16 boards.

[01:04:37] I think it's 16 boards, but I've gotten knocked out the last three years by Bart and Kit. So now I'm on their team. Just kidding. It's not gonna happen again. You made sure. They're not gonna knock me out. Yeah. I think it's a really fun tournament, the trials. Like this is the tournament that I wanted to play because it's like, it's also like a very long knockout from day one.

[01:05:04] And then you have also the losers bracket or something like, how do you call it? Yeah. The USA too. Yeah. USA too. They call it. Yeah. And this sounds like a fun tournament to be part of. Who do you like to watch in the U S trials? Anybody in particular? Uh, Greco Hampson. Cause they play strong club. Maybe. Greco Hampson. I like watching because they play similar system to us. I like watching the, uh, Brad and Joe.

[01:05:34] We used to play with them. And I were just, I think they have a very fun way of playing. Like also to watch, but also to like, I like the way they play. Uh, who else can I watch? I like watching Vinnie and Kren, Krennic and Des Moines. They are also like usually a good show to watch. Basically that's it. Yeah. I think that Keaton, Bart, like they're also very fun to watch.

[01:06:02] I haven't watched them a lot, but when I play against them, they always play like this very complicated system. And they suddenly at the end, like, yeah, I asked for Jack's here, ask for the nine here. Like, you know, you know, it's always impressive to see a pair that is on the same wavelength and going this deep into the game. Like there was a hand against them. So the first year that we played them, it was there on Fleischer with Joe and Brad and Marty and Chip. And we played them close. Like we were six handed.

[01:06:31] We played them close. They ended up beating us, but there was a hand where they had like a strong club real or they had a relay auction. And at like the five level, so Bart, I think was captain and he was asking Kit. If he had either like both. Ace king of hearts or ace king of diamonds or something like that. Yeah. And it was more likely that he had ace king of diamonds, I think,

[01:07:02] because he had length of diamonds. Mm-hmm. And now I'm on lead against five. No, with the king of diamonds. And I know that he doesn't have. I know that Declare doesn't have the ace king of diamonds because I know what cards he has. And so we, yeah, I let a diamond and we took like the first, you know, they make like six something. So that was one of my wins, but like, you know, it's hard to really talk trash when, uh,

[01:07:33] no, and they beat you every time. Also, you can't really talk trash to someone that's just like actually can relay for the whole hand. Right. It's just like, it's like, you can't do it. Like they're just, they have an incredible system. I really like, I don't like playing relay. Like we thought about playing relays. I don't like it. For me, it's like takes away part of the game that like, I love to do, like being naturally. It's like something that we love to do.

[01:08:02] But when you watch it, it can be so impressive. Like when someone just relays and relays and the other guy just keep on giving responses and they all know what everything means. It's just, it's a beautiful part of the game. But like. But Brad and Joe play relay too, but you think Kit and Bartz is more sophisticated than their relays? No, Brad and Joe also have a crazy relay, but I don't know. Brad and Joe, they, I think they play something different.

[01:08:31] Like from Kit and Bartz. Kit and Bartz play, I don't know. I've never seen like, they somehow managed to stay low. Like when they relay, like they usually get most of the hand right by the like four or five level against me. Anyway, I haven't watched them a lot, but like it gets me. It's always feels like they're double dumb when they are beating. Like when they start all this relay, you just want to tell them like, okay, just say the final contract. Just look at the head.

[01:09:03] Just tell me what's the final contract and who is on the lead, please. And that's a nice part of the game. So that's exciting. You can, you have a good team, right? Do you have a draw for the first match or how does it work? Yeah, we're playing, I think we're playing Goodman. Uh, yeah, I think we're playing Andy Goodman with Mike Lassell. Mike Lassell. Yeah.

[01:09:28] Uh, let me look since 2025 USBC's bracket. Yeah. Okay. We're the 12 seed. We're playing Goodman. And that is Andy Goodman with Mike Lassell, Rodwell and Simpson and David Granger and Joel Woolridge. Hmm. Yeah. Same. Okay. It's going to be a fun match. I will watch it. I'll try watching it. Let's see what's going to happen.

[01:09:58] So what for you would be a success in this tournament? Like what would you be happy with? You know, when I tell like non-bridge players that I'm playing in the team trials to represent the US world championships, they get pretty excited. You know, like that sounds really cool. Yeah. With good reason. Yeah. It's cool. It's like, you know, I tell people that I played bridge against Bill Gates. So the next question they ask is, did you win? And the answer to that question, unfortunately, is no.

[01:10:25] We played like seven boards against him in New Orleans at his table. And there was a one board where I had like an 11 count for triple three. And I just bid one. No, after my partner opened the bidding. And at the other table, they bid to no got to three. No, which is should be down. Miss defended. That was the match. You know, like, and I called my teammate. I'm friends with my teammate. I called him like a year later.

[01:10:56] And I was like, this is like an American expression. You might not have heard this before, but I said, I got a bone to pick with you. Or I'm mad at you. And this is like a guy that I've never told him I was mad at him before. Yeah, this is a good thing to say. Like because I played with John and John is not a guy that is mad at anyone. Like if he's mad at you, it seems like, like, I asked you one thing to win against Bill Gates. I didn't care about anything else. You can screw up the rest of the tournament.

[01:11:25] I'm just imagining he's like, it's just friends. It's like him and his, his partner, you know, like his life partner. Yeah. And I'm just expecting that. He's like, wait, whoa, you're mad. And I'm like, what the hell, man? You know, why do you got to let three know me? Because that's killing me. Actually, I saw Bill in Vegas. So Bill was playing the two day Swiss at the end of the Vegas tournament or the one day Swiss, like the last day in Vegas, he's playing in the Swiss. And I really wanted to go up to him and say, because I've met him before.

[01:11:55] I'd be like, hey, Bill, John McAllister. And I was going to say, you know what the first question people ask me after I tell him that I played bridge against you is? Did you win? Did you? And the answer is no. And that sucks, man. But where did I get started on with this? Oh yeah. The trials. I mean, I just want to win a match in the trials. Like I've never won a match. Like, you know, I'm not a serious, you know, I'm not a serious contender. Like I just want.

[01:12:24] How intense the two days match are. Like the two days to play against the same team and you're playing like six segments or like eight segments, I didn't even know what's playing, but like, it's so intense to play two days against the team and then just to win. It feels like so good. I think we play three segments a day. Not positive, actually. I don't know. That's how we play in Bermuda ball. So I guess it's just.

[01:12:53] Yeah, that makes sense. It makes sense that you have something like this, something similar. Yeah. You know, like I don't want to. Yeah. I want to win a match. I think that's my goal. Do they play in tablets? Like do they or in the. They play on like Chromebooks. But in the rooms like, like they used to do. Yeah. So you're in a hotel room with your screen mate. Mm hmm. Uh, just the two of you and you're on a computer. So it's different.

[01:13:22] And but it's cool because you have an entire play and bidding history for every match. Yeah. That you can see, you know, say if Maxtra sitting in my seat, I can see what he did for every, you know, every decision that he had during the match. Like you can not not do it after the match. You like it? Like you prefer this way? Um, I mean, I'll say like the year that we almost beat Joe and Brad. Mm hmm. Like I think those guys are intimidating to play against at the table.

[01:13:51] Like for me, there is such a higher level in terms of how they're thinking about the board we just played. Yeah. And I think it was helpful for me to not have to have both of them at the table, you know, because I'm just dealing with them. So I don't have like, there's like an energy around it. Like in the room. Yeah. Yeah. Like you have, you have table there. You can just lay down on the bed. No, you just like in a chair. You can, you can sit on the bed. You can sit on the bed if you wanted to.

[01:14:20] Like sometimes they take the beds out of the rooms, but not always like you could, I've never sat on the bed, but like you literally it's, it's very different. That sounds so funny. You can actually lie on the bed and like, yeah, you could. Like you're playing like an online game. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. But you know that, I mean, one of the things is it really, you know, it would be very difficult to cheat in that environment. Yeah.

[01:14:47] It takes something away from like, it's not always, it's not only cheating. It's also like when you play at a table, you have this vibrate of people at the table because it is what it is. Sure. People just give away a lot of information. It's definitely different to play like this. Yeah. Like both from your partner and the opponents, like you can see like in the table as the energy of the table is like something that you take away. And I don't know. I've never played like this.

[01:15:16] I think we've played on tablets. We beat on tablet and we've never played only on tablets, but definitely not on the separate rooms, but it would be fun to try. Who was your screen mate? I mean, I mean, I'm glad like some people really care about it. They're like, no, you have to play with cards. I'm glad that it's an option, but I'm also glad that we do play with cards too. You know, like I'm glad that I would be disappointed if it got to the point where we never use cards.

[01:15:46] Yeah. I get that. For me, it's just, it sounds weird. Like, it sounds like we're playing on BBO, right? It sounds like we're just playing a fixed game on BBO and we're just like. It doesn't have like the double dummy analysis though, after the board's over, which is good because on BBO, you know, you can see what the double dummy analysis and you can play trick by trick. Yeah. So it's good to move on.

[01:16:09] I mean, my screen mate was Bart a lot and Joe that one year. Because also I feel like this is very important, right? Like, who is your screen mate suddenly? It's like very, because in the bridge table you're like, okay, he's my screen mate, but I don't really care. But suddenly you need to share a room for two days with this guy. You're like, you better be carefully like while you're playing again. But so we also lost to Kevin Rosenberg and Brian Platnik for the last two years.

[01:16:38] And so Platnik was my screen mate some last year. And, uh, he's really funny. So I ended up interviewing him on this podcast afterwards because I just thought he was like a, you know, he's a funny guy. Yeah. Um, but it's easy to be funny when you're beating somebody, you know, like that. Oh, that's, yeah. That's gonna be interesting to see, like, because for me, it's a different way of playing.

[01:17:06] Like it's, it's so weird to play like this. Yeah. Maybe, maybe people that are constantly playing the trials, they are like used to it already, but like, for me, it would be so weird to play like this. Like when you're not in the same room is like, you know, in a hotel room sitting there, it feels like, it's weird. Yeah. Some people are vocal and complain of it, but I like it.

[01:17:34] Like the Schaumburg where the event is held is sort of a, where is it? It's in outskirts of Chicago. Hmm. So, you know, and then it's like at the end of April, the weather's going to be kind of middling. I don't know. It's been there for a good few years. I'm sure it's the, I'm sure it's in place. Yeah. For the least last like five or six years, I would think.

[01:17:58] Um, but you know, it's probably easier to run it the way, you know, they, I mean, I don't know. You're playing just for the open. Yeah. Just for the open. I'd like to play the mix, but, uh, I don't have anything for it. So I don't know if the entries are closed for that. To play. Well, not for me when I just play two days, you know? No. And even if you play, like you play the minimum that you can play is two days and two days, right?

[01:18:25] Or you can, well, because there's a USA two this year, we're guaranteed four days of play. So if we win, we're guaranteed six days because you got the USA, like two bracket, the losers bracket. Everybody goes into that. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. It's a, quite a lot, I think, to be guaranteed to play. Hopefully I'll be there for a long time. Yeah. I hope to be there for a, it's, I hope it feels like an eternity.

[01:18:54] I hope so too. When do they start? Two weeks? Something like this, right? Uh, it starts on the 24th, I think. 24th. Yeah. Yeah. And my birthday's on Friday, this Friday. Oh, cool. That's like two days for now. Okay. Two days. I'll be 49. Try to remember and text you something. Yeah. I like that. Maybe tell Adi. I don't know if Adi knows it's my birthday. How would you two play basketball against each other?

[01:19:23] Well, so basically Adi was good at high school. Like she was actually like playing for a team and like, she was more serious. I'm just a basketball fan. My big advantage is that I'm like bigger than her. That's my only advantage. But like when it comes to shooting and anything, she was just like way better than me because I couldn't shoot the basketball. I was like, but, uh, but we were used to play like once a week or twice a week when we were

[01:19:52] on tournaments, we were used to play like, and it's funny because they're both like competitive. So it was like, they used to like, usually we're winning and trash talking me. So it was, we used to play hearts, me, Adi and Elah. Uh, have you ever played hearts? No. I know the rules, but I've never. Yeah.

[01:20:19] Like Adi would get so serious in that where she got to like a point in the hand where she could like start to count it, you know? And she just would really, yeah, it was really, really competitive. She's sometimes we just, we used to play. I think one time we played against kids, like we needed to like share the course that we played against some kids and you were like trash talking to the kids. I was like, dude, chill.

[01:20:47] Like, oh man. Yeah. She's something else. Um, yeah, that's the thing about bridge, you know, it's like, we've got friends all over the world, you know? Like, uh, I can't imagine ever going to, I mean, Israel's obviously the history there is amazing, but I don't know that I would ever gone to Israel, you know? Like, uh, even invited me, Jacko invited me. That's what happened.

[01:21:15] Jacko invited me to come play with him. Yeah, definitely. You get to see a lot of parts of the world and you get to meet all these people to see all these cultures. Like, because for me that the biggest thing about going to the States, like outside of bridges to see how different people are. Like we were in Memphis now and we played in like Hilton Head and we played in like Las Vegas. And they are always like so different from each other.

[01:21:43] Like just by the, like the energy of the people, the vibes, literally. Also the accent, everything's like the food, everything is different. What's your favorite city that you've been to for a tournament in North America? Uh, I liked Austin. I liked Austin. Austin was great. I liked also Toronto and San Francisco.

[01:22:08] I like basically the main thing that we care about is the food. Yeah. Whereas like when you come to play, because you're, you basically play all day. So the only thing that you care about is to have like a good lunch, nothing too heavy, like good coffee in the morning and something like not too many homeless people like in the streets. That's basically that's it. You don't need like this crazy stuff to do it.

[01:22:37] Do you and Orange share a room normally or do you get separate rooms? We, we share a room. Yeah. Did you stay at the Sheridan this time? Yeah. Yeah. Did you have bed bugs? No. Not that I know. You had? No, I, but Debbie Hyatt who does hotel rooms separately from the ACBL. No, she told me that the Sheridan had bed bugs. So I stayed with her elsewhere. Stayed in her hotel.

[01:23:07] It sounds like a good strategy for her. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. We usually stay at the Tournament Auto. We like the host hotel. Like it's usually the most convenient one. Yeah. Yeah. There was a good little Chinese place. I think it was called Little Pedals. You ever go there? No, I don't think so. For lunch.

[01:23:34] Uh, there's a coffee place right across that I liked. Uh, also. Yeah. That was a good coffee place there. What's your coffee drink? What do you drink? I drink, uh, latte. What? I try to drink it with oatmeal. Ice or hot? Hot. I mean, in the summer in Israel we drink ice, but not in the, in the States we drink usually hot. Hmm.

[01:24:02] You try to drink every morning in the tournament. Like to go out. So, it's part of our routine to go out outside of the hotel to look for a good coffee place and drink there. Because otherwise you just stay in the hotel for the whole, the whole week and you're basically not, not going out at all. So it's. How'd you get hired by Parag? Uh, Migri. Migri set us up with him. Like she was. Who handles that between you and Orin? Do both, did she reach out to one of you or both of you?

[01:24:32] I'm sure she reached out to Orin, yeah. He's a business manager? Depends. Depends which guy, but yeah, I can talk to him. Is it hard getting clients? Is it hard? I think it's depends. Like how we feel like it's sometimes can be tougher than like other times, but we try to work hard and to like,

[01:24:56] I mean, from up until now we had like offers for all the, all the national that we've played. We have never like played like non pro, but obviously some people struggle and I, you can see why. It must be nice to have like a cycle build though. I would think. Uh, yeah. So, I mean, depends. Like let's say last year we played, like we had a big tournament, right? We played in the summer.

[01:25:25] So if we had a cycle, we would just be on the same deal for like the rest of the year and suddenly. Right. It depends how like. Prices went up. You know, when you're, cause we're still at the beginning of our journey. So we need to, every tournament we were doing well. We're just making better names for ourselves. So we got to team up at some point. Yeah. We need to do something. We need to do something. It was fun playing.

[01:25:53] I was, I still remember we were playing in Poland. And me and Adi and we were like in pretty good spot. And we were like, and Adi and me, I think, fucked it up like two matches in the end. And we lost like, I don't remember what happened, but it was like, this was an upset because we were just, I was upset because it was two days event.

[01:26:17] We felt like we were going to be there, like in the knockouts and we were like, and suddenly we were there. Yeah. I was thinking about the hand from the last match. So we like basically the top 32 qualified in that. And I think going into the last match, we were like 33rd or 34th place. So we're playing another team. And like, I don't think it was possible that both of us could qualify. Like I think one or the other could qualify, but not both. Yeah.

[01:26:45] Which is not an ideal situation, but whatever. I was just remembering this one hand where I declared three now. And I just played it really badly and I could have made it. And yeah, it was, it was not a pleasant, it was not a pleasant memory. Yeah. Well, this is the, it's hard playing the Swiss is like the 32 qualified. Even if you start off well, like you have a good first date.

[01:27:14] It's very, very easy to like fall down. This is like, it's very slippery to be like, suddenly you have like a loss and you go down like 10 places and then another 10. And then you suddenly in the bubble and anything can happen in one match. It was a fun team though. Cause you know, Adi, Olivia was my partner, Olivia Schurston. Yeah. It was a really fun. Yeah.

[01:27:40] It was the first time I met Olivia and it was awesome as a teammate. And I am really happy to see her, like to see her growth. I feel like she's playing like really good now. Yeah. She's, she was on my trials team last year. Hmm. Cause her dad, I played with her dad for a couple of years as teammates. Yeah. Yeah. With Max. Yeah. All right. Um, thank you so much, man. It's great to see you.

[01:28:10] I'm really happy for your babe. It was great. Uh, Dana. Yeah. It was fun. Good luck in the trials. I will try to remember two days from now. I will put it on my phone. I need to text you a happy birthday. Ah, well, uh, yeah, that definitely earned points. For sure. For sure. Not promising I will remember. I will try to remember. You know, uh, I'll do my best.

[01:28:41] I'll be waiting. Don't wait for me. Start a party like your birthday early. Don't be there. We just wait for Ami to text you. Happy birthday. Just do it. I know. I'm going to be like, all right guys. It's like, it's like midnight Israel. I think, I think he's out. I don't think I'm going to hear from him. Yeah. Yeah. Um, all right, man. Thanks a lot. I mean, I really appreciate it. Thank you. Okay. I'll be right back.