Just before the Toronto NABC, John sat down with Ladawna Parham, executive director of the ACBL Educational Foundation, and Bronia Jenkins, executive director of the ACBL. Jenkins, "one year in," still has the energy and vision she started with, if not more. Parham, who took the position in November, has had to start from the ground up, with no bridge experience (although she did do her own research prior to getting the job). She is amazed at the depth and vitality of the bridge world.
Listen to how these two women are working together within their organizations to engage and empower those who want to bring bridge to the masses.
[00:00:07] Hi, my name is John McAllister. Welcome to the Setting Trick podcast. Today I have an episode with two guests and they are Bronia Jenkins who is the executive director of the American Contract Bridge League and Ladawna Parham who is the executive director of the ACBL educational foundation
[00:00:30] on which I am a board member and and Ladawna reached out to me over text a couple weeks ago asking me if we could do a conversation where we explain some of the similarities and differences between these two organizations that were once actually together when the
[00:00:53] ACBL Education Foundation started it was part of the ACBL and so just to start out I think people Probably know Bronia a little bit better Ladawna. You're not really a bridge player You got we hired you to be the executive director of the ACBL Education Foundation
[00:01:14] Last year I think at the end of last year. I started in November and Bronia you're also relatively new to the job, but You know you're a little you got a little you've been playing bridge for a long time and
[00:01:30] But you started not to when did you start? I started in May so it's been a year and a little bit. So I call it one year in the kind of thing So now both these organizations are being run by phenomenal women
[00:01:42] So we plan to go very far and thank you for thank you for having us on the podcast We love working together. We love what we're doing for bridge We do have slightly different missions, but that they're actually very complementary
[00:01:56] Ladawna you are not a bridge player before you started. I am Working on it. Although when you work as closely with someone like Bronia or you or Robert Todd Or the other people who are on my board
[00:02:10] I don't know that I'll ever feel comfortable saying I'm a bridge player within that world because there's so many amazing People that I that I work with every day So I'm an all-in-all yeah, but yeah, but bridge. Yes bridge is about playing bridge
[00:02:24] You know there are different levels of bridges like there's different levels of tennis just like there's different levels of golf But just because you're a bad bridge player doesn't make you not a bridge player
[00:02:35] Okay, because we all make mistakes and we know that for a fact from the very top bridge player to the very worst bridge player Everybody makes mistakes and that's the fun thing about bridge and what keeps you coming back to bridge
[00:02:49] Just like golf just like tennis is when you make those good plays when you beat somebody In a hand where you have you do something that you had not been able to do before and all of a sudden you see something
[00:03:01] And that's what makes bridge such a great game. That's what makes golf such a great game So I think we all in the bridge world need to recognize that being a bridge player Does not mean that you are an expert. It just means you love to play bridge
[00:03:17] so yeah coming at it as not a Bridge player previously But super passionate about the work that we do, you know, I've been in nonprofit management for over 20 years, which is Embarrassing or difficult to say
[00:03:34] Not long but I have been in nonprofit management for over 20 years in more direct service capacities I've worked in domestic violence and elder care services and hunger and homelessness
[00:03:49] But there are common threads throughout all of that of what communities need to stay engaged with each other to provide Healthy atmospheres and hope and growth and safe spaces for kids And so bridge really appealed to me One because it was stepping out of that direct service
[00:04:08] Peace in the way that I've been but two because I can get at some of those opportunities To keep kids and communities engaged with each other in new ways, you know I think I've mentioned to both of you before how with us being such a
[00:04:23] Virtual world and they have every possible thing at their fingertips with social media and snapchat and tick-tock and all of the things keeping kids connected to each other and and based somewhere in a healthy way has
[00:04:38] Started to go by the wayside a bit and I think it hurts us and so any opportunity to Grow the minds forth that keeps them involved with whether I'm super excited
[00:04:48] And how bro near how did you first meet Madonna? I met her I believe at the nationals in Louisville maybe or in Atlanta in Atlanta. Do we meet yes? We met in Atlanta You know, I'd heard of her before because I was talking with Robert Todd, you know
[00:05:07] Even before when they were looking for a new executive director I had worked with Kristen a little bit although Kristen's tenure as executive director was ending as I was kind of starting So La Donna have had La Donna and I have had several conversations
[00:05:24] You know about how to work together how to make things better how we can Focus on Leveraging each other's Worlds so, you know sharing stuff on social media, you know, I am the commentator for example for the spark
[00:05:43] The spark auction not the spark auction the spark of tournament that is happening this year And I did it last year as well with Barry Regal. So how do we support?
[00:05:53] How does the ACBL support the educational foundation so that they can raise money so that they can then get new Young players to play I think the educational foundation is very focused on education And I think the ACBL is a little bit more focused on
[00:06:10] Entertainment, you know, so basically like we're focusing on how do we make bridge? fun and how do we Have people come to tournaments and play and have a good time and the educational foundation
[00:06:23] I think is focusing on how do we get new young players to want to play the game Did I say that right you think La Donna are not so much
[00:06:31] Absolutely, and certainly players across all walks of life and all ages be a program that touch on all of that We've got a new grant that we're doing with the YMCA to do exercise your mind at the Y better for
[00:06:46] Adults, but absolutely there is an emphasis on bringing in those younger players because we do want to build up that next generation bridge so like one program that I know that the Bronies help fund and
[00:07:00] That the Ed Foundation is helping fund is Patty Tucker's jumpstart bridge program, right? So we're really excited about that program because you know Patty Tucker You know people have been working a long time to figure out how to get in the schools
[00:07:13] And it's been a difficult road and it feels like we might actually have a little bit of a door opening here through this program So what we're doing is we're training volunteers to go to these regional
[00:07:25] Gifted conferences that are run by the school districts so that we can then Get the programs in the schools. This is the long game right getting programs in the school is the long game So Patty goes but she can't be at every regional conference Therefore we need
[00:07:43] Volunteers who she trains to go to these conferences to get us into the schools and that's actually happening and we funded some of it Ladonna's funded some of it because we're basically saying this is important This is a good way to get into the schools
[00:07:56] And if we can do it we should just do it in whatever way that we can Absolutely, and she's reached hundreds of new players Which is so exciting and every time she reports out on it
[00:08:07] It's just this massive success with new volunteers signing up new teacher signing up and Working with those gifted teachers as you mentioned has been a huge like that is the open door They have so much more Discretion in what they do with those classes. That's really become
[00:08:25] Are in and and it's so exciting to see her success with that So how exactly you know like because we need to actually me Ladonna your your Your motivation for this was like to help people understand
[00:08:38] Differences between the two organizations. How exactly has that been coming up for you? So I think that we both have have people or groups reaching out to us Thinking we do what the other organization does and kind of having to reroute that and support them
[00:08:56] And obviously we work together to support all those people But I'll have people reach out to me asking me about Tournaments asking about their membership and has it lapsed and have they paid asking about their VBO and what they're supposed to do at each of things. I'm like
[00:09:17] That is an amazing question. Let me Need to help you with that and I think that Roan use group has people reach out sometimes asking for grants that are out of the purview of
[00:09:29] What they do that are more in line with what we do and so I think it's just really helpful to help folks Understand that we are completely separate organizations completely separate different 501 numbers separate entities
[00:09:43] But we do work really closely together because we're all here for the same overarching mission Which is to support bridge we do that in different ways Just like if Joe were able to join us from the USBF
[00:09:54] Or the ABTA, you know, there are different organizations doing it, but we're all here to support bridge But I think some of those those differences need to be a little clearer for people
[00:10:04] If you get an email, you know somebody asking about your master point or their BBO stuff Do you forward do you forward that or do you do you reply and copy Bronya on that or which what's
[00:10:15] Not grown yet, but there are different people and I'm starting to get better because you know starting in November I still feel like the new girl. There's so much in this world to take in
[00:10:26] But I'm starting to get better about knowing who at the ACBL handles each kind of question Like is it related to their marketing or is it related to college bowl? I'm probably reaching out to Stephanie if it's related to membership
[00:10:40] There are member or support emails that I can send that to and so I'm getting better about that on my end Certainly not perfect, but I try not to harass Bronya with too much That's true. That is very true
[00:10:55] And I think the big difference is you know, we're we're in operation. You're right. We run The bridge league right so we run the national tournaments, okay, and then we sanction Other events that's essentially what the ACBL does we sanction events and we run the national tournaments
[00:11:13] So that's kind of what we do and sometimes people are even sort of confused about that, right? So I get a lot of questions about clubs or Nash or sectionals or regionals, which is something we don't actually run
[00:11:25] so people, you know in general there's a lot of different facets to our organizations and And it is kind of tricky to understand So I don't blame people for not necessarily knowing where to go and so when I do get an email
[00:11:39] I get lots of emails of different things what I tend to do is I reply And I say i'm engaging the the help of sherry to asiano, you know, or i'm engaging the help of ladano I'm engaging the help of so-and-so to help us with this problem
[00:11:53] Whatever it is and I send it back to the people so that i'm still communicating with them But i'm sort of sending them over to the place that can help them
[00:12:00] And most of the time the people that I send them to take over and actually do a pretty good job of responding to the question You know, it's interesting though. I didn't even realize you know that you guys don't run regionals for example, but you do
[00:12:14] Like oversee the directing like how does it work with the directors? The tournament director sure so that's you know, that's why i'm saying it's interesting because we The directors work for the acbl Okay, so we run the directors
[00:12:29] But what we do is we assign directors to various tournaments and then they work with the sponsor of the tournament to make that tournament happen So and you know, so the directors work for us
[00:12:41] But they're really working for the sponsor of that tournament when they are running that tournament. It makes sense But it's complicated. It's tricky and it's it's a challenging thing to figure out How many directors do we send to places? Which directors do we send to places?
[00:12:55] You know, what kind of events should you be running the more events you run the more directors you need The more you are in different locations within your hotel the more directors you need So it there's all sorts of complexities to running tournaments that people don't really
[00:13:11] Fully grasp aren't there directors that are also not employees of the acbl Like like club games for example, like they're not employed by like there's a there's a certain level of competence that you have to have to be Like an acbl director, right? Right an acbl tournament director
[00:13:28] Now we have lots of local club directors that run their local club games. So you as a matter of fact I took the club director's course Um a couple months ago with lin yoko who's amazing and it's not easy
[00:13:40] You know, this stuff is not easy the rules are not easy There's a lot of nuances to the rules and so and there's a lot of nuances to acbl score and to the way You're supposed to say things to people and and the rules, you know, and so
[00:13:53] Um, I'm I didn't take the club director's test. I'm not sure that I would have passed it But I decided that I didn't need to take it yet. I might have to take the class one more time before I could Take the test. That's totally fair
[00:14:05] It's such a complicated game and then knowing it to the level and having that competence level that you could step in In that role would be tough. I certainly
[00:14:15] Regardless of my level wouldn't want to do that. I don't even want to be a timer at my son's swim meet. I'm like, I don't want that Responsibility like if I mess that up so I can imagine But donna have you played in a club game? not yet
[00:14:28] Not yet when I have been at um at different tournaments My focus has been on trying to meet people and Related to the ed foundation. So I haven't done that piece of it yet
[00:14:41] More than a little intimidated, but I'll get there. The funny thing is I was you know, when you talk to um bridge players, right? One of the common things you'll hear is
[00:14:52] You hold right and then they give you your hand you're old ace third. Whatever it is, right? And the directors they joke around and say, you know, when you get in a group of directors They don't say you hold they say you rule
[00:15:04] Right. So your ruling was this and then they talk to each other about the ruling So the same thing kind of happens in the director's world that does happen in the bridge world except They're talking about the ruling that they made, you know, based on what's going on
[00:15:16] And those rules are very different from the actual mechanics of the game of bridge So they they tell you what they ruled they start out by telling you what they rule
[00:15:24] Well, they say the same thing like when they're in the director suite after the game discussing whatever they're discussing Like they joke around like the bridge players they say you hold and the directors
[00:15:33] They say you rule and then they ask the question about the thing that they ruled about, you know And talk to each other about how do I do on that ruling? You know kind of thing and like the directors that work for the acpl
[00:15:43] Are they actually is their actual titled tournament director? Is that yeah, so there's tournament directors. There's Associate there's there's several ranks within the director world Right. There's national director is the top and then associate national director and I don't even know then it there's tournament director
[00:16:00] and then there's like Director and training, you know, there's all there's different ranks. I don't even know that I told you all the ranks correctly Lidana what's been the hardest part about kind of learning this world from the as an outsider as an outsider uh
[00:16:19] What becoming an insider so learning the Internal language because it's like a complete foreign language hearing everybody Talk about what happens at the clubs and How they're communicating with each other that has been very interesting and then layering that over
[00:16:39] The grants that we do and our focus on our grants and making sure that we are staying Aligned with that and understanding the difference between is this something that's our purview? Is this something that's the acpl's purview?
[00:16:52] Is this something that I should be reaching out to a different group about? That has been a lot of it uh And then communicating with people who want to submit grants or who haven't received a grant and just trying to help them refine
[00:17:10] What they're looking at what they're asking us for so that they can come back to us with something stronger But I've been really excited about our grant program Okay, how many grants do you think we've done since you've uh
[00:17:23] Since you've how many have we looked at and how many have we funded since you started? approximately, uh since I've started about 17 Have been funded um Which which has been super exciting, you know of all sizes, but everything from Believe I was mentioning summer camps to
[00:17:47] working with um, there's a boys and girls club that's partnering with a local unit To bring it to their boys and girls clubs, but to spread it to kind of their sister
[00:17:59] Boys and girls clubs in the area to the y to patty tuckers program to the kids that are traveling all over the world Representing the u.s. It's been phenomenal. Um And it's also been really exciting to have
[00:18:13] Organizations like the australian bridge federation and the ugandan bridge federation Reach out and talk about what we're doing how we're doing what we're doing how they're working to support bridge and their countries and what we're doing in ours The shared difficulty of getting into schools
[00:18:33] When when the schools aren't focused on that kind of thing. It's just been completely fascinating Can the acpl education foundation fund programs that are outside the united states? so We don't have a set restriction that says we can't necessarily
[00:18:51] But that is absolutely not our focus and I don't know that the committee or the board Would agree to that unless it was something that directly impacted North america so Canada the u.s. Mexico unless it was something that directly took place here or impacted here
[00:19:12] So for example, we are a funder of Bamsa bridges mine sport for all um a research project that's happening out of the university of sterling and Which is a phenomenal project, but it's happening across multiple countries
[00:19:27] It will absolutely impact us here. Some of the research is happening here We have members of the advisory panels that are based here Um, so there is a clear connection But if somebody came to us with a grant saying we want to grow bridge in denmark
[00:19:43] Can you give us money for that? I would I would say We love that you're doing that and we will give you a clause will share Resources, but as far as funding that there's not that connection. So I wouldn't expect that
[00:19:57] And brony if you ask for something from the acbl education foundation, do we just do we just give it to you? Of course by definition whatever I say is what happens I say give me this and it just happens um
[00:20:11] So yeah, I mean, you know to some extent. Yes. I mean one of the things is that My view is right now. I'm trying to build a Good product and then once we build the good product and we know what our product is really
[00:20:27] Then the concept of marketing or advertising that product becomes a more real thing at that point We might be asking for more real money to be able to do that. So right now We haven't asked very much from the educational foundation in terms of funds
[00:20:43] You know, we have Some money ourselves, right? So it's not like We need to ask for every dollar. I'm trying to build good product Good online product and good support for my grassroots people
[00:20:59] That's what I'm trying to build and then once we know what kind of is working the best to say, okay Now we need real money to be able to deploy that, you know nationally
[00:21:10] So when you say good product, you're talking specifically about a grassroots program where you're introducing Like people to bridge. That's one of the things that's one of the things but it's not the only thing
[00:21:21] Right. I mean we want to work on social bridge like making sure that people like the way I look at the acbl right now is we are Basically, we have a division that is duplicate bridge. That is what the acbl is
[00:21:33] I believe the acbl should be more than duplicate bridge. I believe it should be social bridge I believe it should be pre bridge. I believe it should be bridge education So I'd like to build all of those products so that I can then deploy those products
[00:21:46] We have a very good deployment of duplicate bridge. We have duplicate bridge clubs. We have tournaments We have nationals We don't have a very good deployment of these other sort of buckets that i'm talking about that i'm trying to build up
[00:22:00] And in order to make that happen, you have to get permission from your board of directors or how does that? No, I mean the board of directors and management are very much aligned in what we are doing
[00:22:11] So a lot of people talk about oh my god management versus the board that is not happening It's management with the board. We are working together to build these different products We are aligned in the way that we are thinking So I don't you know
[00:22:27] Yes, of course, I talked to the board and I asked them things but we're just It's like the educational family. We're all on the same team. Okay It's really important for the bridge world to realize that we're on the same team that we're facing the problems together
[00:22:40] You know, we share each other's each other's social media posts because that then reaches more people Like when I see a social media post on bridge I share it as myself. I ask people to share it, you know
[00:22:52] That are on the management team of the acbl, you know, I think it's all about You know kind of working together rather than Trying to go at it alone. Now having said that, you know You have to be able to to actually do things. So we are like
[00:23:09] doing things like Intro to bridge for example, which is our online Educational program to teach people bridge. That's a program that I'm looking to expand right now It runs like, you know three times a year. That's not enough. It needs to be running
[00:23:27] There needs to be one that starts every week. So when we find new people We can say hey, I have an intro to bridge class that's starting next week
[00:23:33] That's one of the things I'm working on same with an online social bridge game working with various, you know people Bbo real bridge, you know Tricky bridge into bridge, you know, there's a lot of people
[00:23:45] I don't even know if I want you to post all that you might have to edit that out but you know working on the concept of Social bridge and how we get people to want to come and be part of our community
[00:23:55] Regardless of how they play bridge and then the other piece is pre bridge before bridge. How do you get people interested because when you think about The people that I meet in the streets and I meet a lot of people in the streets, believe it or not who
[00:24:10] You know, I talked to about bridge who are under 40 years old Their response is always the same. Oh my grandmother used to play bridge, you know So like if they know anything about it. So we've got to get to those people
[00:24:25] Where we offer them something that they can go to without it being too unfun. Okay Like it can't be too much like going to a math class. Okay people don't want to go to math class
[00:24:37] Okay, they already did that they want to go somewhere where they can have fun Which is kind of the concept of what we've made up a game called bridge war which is a combination of
[00:24:46] A hand of bridge was the game of war. What is the game of war? The highest card wins when you say that to people all of a sudden They said, oh, yeah, I could play that they come and sit down and the claim to fame is within 30 seconds
[00:24:56] You'll be playing. There's not a lot of explanation. You just sit down and you're just basically playing you it's Technically like a one-no-trump hand Left of the dealer leads the dummy comes down and you're playing one-no-trump, you know
[00:25:08] And so so how do we get that and other free bridge games? It's not the only free bridge game But how do we get people to bite into that so that they actually have fun playing and may want to learn more about bridge
[00:25:21] And I think that's one of those areas where moving forward A big part of my task is that making bridge accessible to people who don't want to be a math class again To people who think that it is
[00:25:34] They're, you know, great-grandmother's bridge and not something that they would be invested in And so I think those are opportunities for us to work together in supporting free bridge options I've
[00:25:46] This is very I shouldn't even say this on a podcast because it's the very early stages, but I've met with a screenwriter about About a movie opportunity that that's coming up because you know, we all saw it happen with
[00:26:00] Uh chess after the queen's gambit where it just the main stream to talk about it But I think that's part of what we're missing is that mainstream accessibility and interest
[00:26:12] So, um, I think those are things that we want to do as well and great ways that we'll be working La don I have to tell you uh when uh When so we started like this is search for executive director
[00:26:24] I don't know like six months maybe before bronya was hired maybe maybe longer And I've known bronya, you know through tournaments And we we've become friends and I have to say Like that it was really exciting
[00:26:37] Uh to when I found out that bronya was going to be the executive director of the acb and I think a lot of people shared that sentiment and uh bronya and I were at this tournament in regional and rested in here
[00:26:48] This past week and we were talking one night Uh, I sought her out because I knew we were having this conversation And you know it really I was like wow, you know these ideas that you're talking about this bridge war
[00:27:03] Um, you know, it's it's like an intro class that starts every week so that you know You know it's going to happen and you can point people because I get a lot of people that are You know curious about bridge that want to know
[00:27:15] Uh how they can get started and I and I feel like that's like that there's that's like this thing It's like you get somebody You know my friend's dad recently was like i'm you know, I'm interested in trying bridge and and I gave him
[00:27:27] Something but it you know, there's you know, there's a local teacher but you know she requires a big commitment and uh in terms of time and it's It's just not so easy and uh The idea of really getting making it easy for people to start playing Uh
[00:27:45] Is exciting because I bet you've probably experienced that yourself ladonna like uh, you know How do you get started like you're you're trying to learn this game as you're um, you know diving into this You know into the deep end and I think that that um
[00:28:02] I think that that is the most difficult thing for All of our programs is how do we make it something that Is easy. I know that a huge part of it is the challenge a huge part of it is the difficulty but
[00:28:18] When you're just starting out you aren't ready for the challenge and the difficulty You want it to be challenging enough that it keeps your interest, but not so much that you're like I cannot do this leave me alone
[00:28:29] Um, I'll tell you the first place I started learning it was actually that app tricky bridge Like as soon as I think it's a phenomenal app But as soon as I was even looking at this world
[00:28:41] I researched it and went on there. Um, and I think things like that are phenomenal, but bridge war um Things that take it out of online apps into that next step I think are great, but everything that makes it accessible
[00:28:57] Is a huge focus for us and I think should be and in bridge war brunia Is it actually so the person who deals the cards there to declare and the person to their left? Okay
[00:29:07] Yeah, just that way you just get it going quick. You know, it's like left the dealer leads now I'll be honest when we've gone to play it at like pickleball events We made up the hands right to make them like reasonably set up
[00:29:18] So obviously it's kind of important. I mean if you deal out the cards, you know You may not get a good one. No trump hand. That's kind of one of the problems, right? Is that you know
[00:29:27] But a lot of people have dealing machines and set up, you know things where we can set up like one no trump type hands You don't want to call them one no trump type hands
[00:29:36] To people who don't play bridge because then they're like what the hell's going on But when you talk to bridge players and say you set up a one no trump hand It's not that complicated. I kind of joke around and I say well bridge war seven
[00:29:47] Is one no trump right and once you get to seven tricks then I joke around to the people who are playing and say okay Now it's about embarrassing the opponents by taking more tricks
[00:29:56] The next thing would be bridge war eight, which would be like a two spade contract, right? Like so basically where spades is trump, right? You'd have to have like a continuation and right now We're still in the very
[00:30:06] Very preliminary stages in my mind at least of what do pre bridge games look like, you know We don't really you know, we have just declared that exists through bbo, you know But how do we get people to go to that? in a super You know
[00:30:21] Where they'll get there and they have fun and then they want to come back and we don't quite have that yet And getting that out to a community of people who aren't already interested in bridge because they already have that
[00:30:33] Stereotype in mind that this isn't for me. So how do we take that? And get that in front of people who would otherwise not even look at it You got this saw this job post for acpl executive
[00:30:45] Ed foundation the executive director, ladonna. You started researching tells some of the things that you kind of came across that that sort of Grabbed you Like at the ed foundation specifically, um, no just about bridge probably more broadly speaking, but yeah
[00:31:02] I guess you could expand it to the ed foundation. Sure So One of the things that I was super interested in when I first started learning was this history bridge that I knew nothing about um
[00:31:16] So for all my bridgerton people out there when you hear them talk about wister You see them playing with that was a precursor to bridge and so
[00:31:26] And looking at the way that's changed and evolved but how it had this massive role in our society even up through the 40s and 50s There was a whole tv show and then
[00:31:38] Some of the big player names like omar shareef and bill gates and warren buffett people that Everybody's heard of but that maybe if you aren't in the bridge world You had no idea that this was such a huge part
[00:31:51] Of things for them. Um, and I have told several people that this world is like um, the most positive healthy mafia That I could think of because it's totally underground for people who aren't in that world But you know when you're looking at hundreds of thousands of players
[00:32:09] um in just in the us And and if you aren't already in the world in the bridge world, nobody has any idea They think it's just their grandmother at the kitchen table. They have no idea
[00:32:21] And so it was just fascinating to me to see how massive it was and then when I went to My first nabc in atlanta and there are just so many people and they're so
[00:32:32] Passionate about it and I was telling you guys earlier just sitting there after each one of the sessions hearing them argue about You should have done this and you should have done that and just um the vitality of the game is something
[00:32:45] I think that you just have no idea exists until you become engrossed in this world And so as I started into it, that's what really hooked me fascinated me And when you talk to people outside the bridge world about
[00:32:58] The bridge world it actually is a pretty interesting story people are like wow You go to tournaments you do this you do that and what do you get you get master points and like I mean
[00:33:07] And and how to like profession. What is a professional bridge player and all that kind of stuff? It's a it's a crazy well, it's camp for adults right tournaments are camps for adults
[00:33:16] It's just it's a camp where basically what you're doing is you're always playing bridge, you know In regular camp you have one day of archery one day of canoeing one day of arts and crafts in
[00:33:25] Bridge tournaments you have seven days of bridge or ten days of bridge and yet people love it They never want to stop playing like the people just want to keep playing because there's always another hand. I mean, you know
[00:33:37] I used to teach probabilities so 52 c 52 52 c 13 or whatever how many ever different Hands you can have right when you play bridge like you you know I don't know that it you know, you get the exact same hand how many times it's like every hand is different
[00:33:53] Then every hand has its own opportunities and pitfalls You rough with three little and you shouldn't have you know, like you need it to not rough that trick It's so hard not to rough with the three of hearts. And yet that's what you needed to do
[00:34:08] Yeah, we could never rough when you didn't need to rough road I worked when I needed to rough I roughed I let billy make his game and he beat me in that finals of that tournament in reston that we were both at john
[00:34:20] bronya for those listening bronya and i went this tournament and in the swiss on saturday She's playing at the same table as her partner billy cohen And she was she was explaining how that by roughing with her three small trump. She gave
[00:34:36] Uh, she gave billy an opportunity to reach the dummy that now allowed him to make his unbreakable contract Had she had she opted not to rough? Yeah, it's really hard to not rough when you can i'll tell you that
[00:34:48] It's really hard. You really have to think about it. And I really did it It's like my mom. I send my mom this podcast and she's like I have no idea who or what you're talking Talking about Yeah
[00:35:01] I mean the bridge world is a fascinating world. It's it is full of Very intelligent people it is full of people who are very accomplished in many ways And then they sit down at the bridge table and it is the great equalizer
[00:35:15] Okay, it is the great equalizer because you could play against somebody Who is You're like, oh, I got no problems here And all of a sudden they've like and played you into making the contract like three times kind of thing
[00:35:26] And you're like what what just happened here? Like how did this happen? I didn't even you go recognize this person You don't know who they are and then they they make it, you know some good plays against you
[00:35:34] And you're like, oh, okay. This person knows how to play, you know, it's it's it's a really fascinating thing Um to say to somebody well played good defense good bid It's really fun to get to do that even when you lose
[00:35:47] I have started having gatherings with some friends of mine who are completely not involved in the world Although most of them have started on the tricky bridge app. They're like tipping their toes
[00:35:57] In the water, but they're like we need a bridge update like we need like what's on the agenda today What's happening in the bridge world and every time it's some new thing that's happening like that is so crazy
[00:36:08] How how is that happening in this world? And we have no idea. It's It's super fun One of the things that I think we're working for towards and we don't I don't have a solution at all is like the concept of a
[00:36:19] Partnership desk, right? Like how do you create partners because one of the big problems? With new players is the ability to find a partner. I think that's a big issue So the question is how do we get with a dating site?
[00:36:32] like e-harmony, you know or you know match.com and create a little bridge division of match.com So that people can find their bridge partner Absolutely We're in come does we'll talk about Yeah, that's so true
[00:36:48] I've got a friend from here in Charlottesville who's talking about going to the the Toronto N.A.B.C. starts in a little over a week and uh He's like looking for somebody who can play with up there and he found some person on bridge winners
[00:37:02] I think then they're gonna try it out and I was just thinking about how much Like that's just gonna give him so much more sort of like, oh, I have this one person I can connect with and you know now we're in it together
[00:37:14] And uh, it is not so easy to find uh to find bridge partners. I think uh I think that's a great idea, Baronia. Yeah, no, we're definitely i'm definitely always thinking about how do we create some sort of like
[00:37:26] Partnership situation for people and right now it's done through people and that's okay You know, you need an actual person that's bringing people together So I send people to the partnership chairs of the tournaments to the partnership chairs of the units and that you know
[00:37:39] Work to do that It used to be in the old days that there were always standbys at the clubs and it used to be in the old days that there were nightgames And both of those things are no longer here and that's a big problem for us
[00:37:50] Lidana, you just you mentioned tricky bridge that uh, the acepillage ed foundation actually Provided a pretty big grant to that project To help make it free for uh people
[00:38:03] And that's something that I I've I've referred a lot of people to tricky bridge. Although, I don't know if it I don't know it's not necessarily getting people like I don't know like what's what's a win, Baronia from tricky bridge?
[00:38:15] Like you you want to what do you want to see when you when you get somebody when you tell somebody about bridge or refer them somewhere?
[00:38:21] Right. So the good thing about tricky bridge from what I understand and I've played on it a little bit is first of all they have some Cool graphics so it appeals to younger people which I think is really good and the second thing is it's very self-driven
[00:38:35] So you don't need a teacher you just go on there and you're playing and you kind of like it And so then you play more. So I do know of some young people who have gotten involved
[00:38:45] Through tricky bridge and so what we're trying to do is connect with tricky bridge So that we can kind of work together to like, you know, he's getting thousands of people who are
[00:38:56] Loving bridge through tricky bridge. How do we get him? You know from that to actually maybe, you know Getting to a Social bridge scene Whether that social bridge seem be online or not online to get to the next level to maybe eventually get to the real duplicate scene
[00:39:12] You know like there has to be A path from going to I just go on the app by myself and I play with the robots To then I want to be able to play with people to then I want to be able to play online
[00:39:23] To then I want to be able to play in real life. I think there has to be some sort of path that goes like that And so hopefully we can do that with tricky bridge And that's one thing I can share is
[00:39:34] That when I started a play bridge, I absolutely loved it and the only outlet that I knew about it was At home with my parents. And so whenever I would go home
[00:39:43] I would I would want to play and we would do that but like I had no idea I lived in New York City like two blocks from the largest bridge club in the country at the time And it didn't even occur to me to go there. And so
[00:39:56] I think that's one of the You know the the the challenge is that people people might really I mean maybe maybe today It's different because there's so much information so much more widely available through To the internet and doing a google search, for example
[00:40:12] Right, but the truth is you know like when uh When I wanted to start playing bridge I sort of knew that they were these things called bridge clubs But I didn't really know what they were so I ran around asking everybody till I found this lady
[00:40:27] Who worked at the YWCA or whatever and she's like, oh my brother is the president of the bridge club Here's the phone number. She gave me the number. I called the guy and he's like show up anytime
[00:40:35] We always have a standby and there was a night game and that's how I started to play I showed up and and we don't have that anymore and that's a problem But what we do have is we have online Access so what we've got to give people
[00:40:48] The first access In my opinion in today's world has to be through the online world and we got to do that and then You know potential and then send them to the next piece which is kind of the live world
[00:41:01] It's a little different. I think than it used to be And brony you're also like a you like you've won multiple NABC plus events you I know you played in the junior world championships. I think you
[00:41:14] Uh, did you lose in the finals? I did lose in the finals to the u.s. I lost to debbie rosenberg and martha Cats, you know like those girls always beat me no matter what I always lose to debbie rosenberg
[00:41:25] I've never beaten her once in any event by the way. So debbie, you know, like I'm waiting for that day to come but Yes, so I we lost in the finals to them and by the way, it's not like my team was a slouch team
[00:41:36] I think I think I had jeff hamson and fred goodlman on my team. So I don't know what happened there I mean, I know they didn't carry us well enough apparently, but It's funny to me
[00:41:47] And I think brad moss was on the other team. So there you go. And then uh, and then I won my first nationals actually With brad moss and that was his first nationals also, but he's gone on to win about, you know 100 world championships and I've won none
[00:42:02] But uh, that I love I loved playing with those people. Um I I always have a great time when I play bridge, you know, it's really really fun and um It's just it's just the best game. It's the best game
[00:42:16] I'd like to ask a quick question of you guys just kind of stepping back a little bit talking about the clubs and active thing If there were suddenly a million new players What kind of infrastructure
[00:42:30] Do you think would need to be in place to support those members those players and keep them engaged? I mean to me we have that infrastructure. That's the one thing we do have we have
[00:42:41] And network of clubs across the nation, you know, and that's the great thing about bridges when I actually moved from Chicago To basel switzerland I found bridge players and then when I moved from basel switzerland to london I found bridge players
[00:42:55] Okay, and then I got married and started playing golf and I stopped playing bridge But that was a different thing that that's the beautiful thing is you can find bridge players Wherever you go in the game is the same the conventions might be different
[00:43:06] But the game is the same so you can sort of play anywhere. So we have that infrastructure now What we don't necessarily have are enough people That if those million bridge players showed up like, you know
[00:43:21] You'd want to organize those games and make sure you had the people there to help out But I think if you had the million bridge players, you'd find the people who are willing to help out We you know, we we'd have to set it up and be ready
[00:43:32] And that's what I mean by setting up our product so that we're kind of ready to welcome all these new players once we advertise nationally Or internationally on this is you know come join the acbl because this is what you can do here
[00:43:46] But then I think you have that infrastructure of clubs. There's there's clubs all over the place That had been asked of me as I was looking at different Brands that have come our way or different strategies are sporting things like rich or that kind of thing
[00:43:59] Like well, what would you really do? What kind of how would you increase the infrastructure to support it if all these players came in? So It's good to hear you say you feel like that's there, but if you build it they will come
[00:44:11] Right, but the thing is, you know if you do want to get some newer players in the game younger players You better have night games. You better have weekend games, you know
[00:44:20] Because they're not going to be able to go at one o'clock in the afternoon, you know to a club game So we that does have to change like but it's doable that it has to change Ronja, uh, one of the biggest thing that the acbl does
[00:44:33] I think is uh It you know in in sanctioning all these games is you guys keep the master points Uh, do you know any how many master points you have ladonna? Zero is that a zero you have zero master points
[00:44:49] Right, do you know how many master points you have apparently I do but i'm not sure but I reported them properly at the tournament I do know how many master points I have and I don't have very many ytd
[00:45:03] You know you're in a date. I didn't get a lot of master points And last year I didn't get a lot of master points either because I don't Unfortunately, I don't get to play bridge a lot fortunately
[00:45:10] I think about bridge all the time so it doesn't bother me that much Yeah, no master points for me at this Is there like a target maybe by year end that you would have uh, ladonna your first uh Are you a member of the acbl ladonna? Yes. Yeah
[00:45:28] He used to want to catch me out but I am So you get the do you get the bridge bulletin magazine and uh and the speakeasy and And all the things so the ace was great on communication
[00:45:42] It's interesting to kind of flip through and see everybody's stories and strategies and ads for those cruises that always look amazing I've never been on a cruise ever so one day maybe I'll go on a bridge cruise, you know like Those of you and my parents
[00:46:02] Are you coming to the the tournament in toronto? Uh in a couple weeks ladonna. Yes. Yeah, absolutely So I'm hopeful that the board members that are there can get together and grab dinner or drinks after the meeting And maybe we'll get you a get your first live session
[00:46:19] Oh, that sounds stressful. Do they have are they having midnight sets? Uh At the at in toronto bronya. I think there are some evening games, but they're no longer midnights I mean, you know when we change the schedule the midnight is now at 7 30 right 7 30 is the new midnight
[00:46:38] right right 7 30 feels nice and reasonable Well, we'll have to play we'll have to play sometime ladonna or maybe do bridge war or something we get you You know, maybe bridge war. Yeah, no play real bridge. You guys are at the real bridge level. You're not a bridge work
[00:47:01] No, no, no, you gotta play real bridge John's like here But that's okay. You know, I mean I I have played many many sessions with Beginning players for a variety of reasons, you know like you know and and you know
[00:47:17] It's really okay to play without conventions. It's really okay to just you know Just bid and play and when you if you get into the wrong contract You're just in the wrong contract you play the cards, you know, and then you go to the next hand
[00:47:28] It's really okay to be wrong. It really is Yeah I'm fully on board with that. I think just going in like that just playing I think just that's the best way to learn Yeah
[00:47:41] Just bid three no trump alive if you look at your hand your partner opens the bidding if your partner opens the bidding and you like Your hand bid three no trump, you know
[00:47:48] If your partner opens the bidding in one of a major and you look and you have some major one of a major Some some cards in the major and you like your hand bid for the major and let's just move right along
[00:47:58] Otherwise just pass and we'll just see what happens anything else we need to cover here for the Feel like we haven't haven't mentioned um Is there anything that you can say about what the usbf does that's different than what we do
[00:48:17] I think that's helpful for people to know Sure, so the usbf is the organization that organizes the international bridge So what does that mean is so when we are sending when the united states when our zone is sending people to
[00:48:33] International tournaments that is run and organized by the usbf Um jan martel has been sort of in charge of that forever. She's amazing uh, she organizes everything and People go and try out to play for the United States at
[00:48:55] World championship. Okay, so you get to go to the team trials which is run every year in schomburg In the month of may sometimes a little bit in april And you go and you try out and the two two teams or one team depending on what it is
[00:49:10] They get to go to the to the international competition and they get uh stipend from the usbf It's like the olympic trials that we're just you know watching right now It's the same thing, you know, you're you're planning the team trials to represent the us
[00:49:26] In the upcoming world championships. There's less hubbub about it than the olympic trials but not much I just feel like there are probably people who are watching who aren't familiar. So thank you Yeah, right. So us united states bridge federation, right? There's also the canadian bridge federation
[00:49:47] Okay, and there's also the mexican bridge federation, which I think is federation mexico It's it's it's not it's fmd. I believe And then there's also the bermudan Federation so there are four federations that are sort of within the
[00:50:03] north american bridge arm of of the of of bridge and that north north american bridge Runs it is responsible for those four federations, although. I believe bermuda might have sort of Gone a different way
[00:50:21] In with respect to international bridge if bermuda wanted to have a team in the world championships where they have to go through I think bermuda is now With the I think they've moved With respect to north american bridge so they run in a different zone
[00:50:40] To try to make it to the world championships So I think mexico canada and the us all compete for those same spots And I think if people have been watching this and
[00:50:49] Want to kind of follow up and get more information if they're looking at info from the acbl They can find that at acbl.org Um at for the ed foundation they can go to acbl es.org for ed foundation um, and then I know
[00:51:06] My email address executive director at acbl educational foundation dot org is on there people can reach me directly um, and then you guys have a whole A whole contact list that people can do depending on what they're interested in we do
[00:51:22] Hopefully, um if people have questions or thoughts and want to know more be involved in some way Um volunteering or how do I become a director any of that they can reach out to you guys?
[00:51:33] And if they are looking at submitting a grant or they want to support youth bridge programs or something they can reach out to us And I definitely could have said some wrong things, especially with the usbf
[00:51:43] I am not into you know, i'm not completely familiar with how everything works at the usbf So I gave you my best guess, but you know, I could definitely have been wrong about several things like usual and and both the ed foundation and the uh
[00:51:57] acbl are set up as nonprofits, I believe but the ed foundation you can actually donate We're a 501c3 so you can donate and get a tax deduction for that And then we can support, you know programs across, you know a broad spectrum of
[00:52:19] Of grant right. We are also a nonprofit, but we are not a 501c3 So when you donate directly to the acbl it is not tax deductible And we have um a planned giving program where people can make estate gifts or planned giving
[00:52:35] Um donations and we're happy to talk to folks about that to make that that lasting impact. All right. Well, thank you ladies Uh, it's been a pleasure to get to speak to you both and I look forward to seeing you
[00:52:48] In toronto in a little over a week. Yes sounds good I look forward to you being our commentator at the celebrity event. Yes, it's gonna be fun. I'm looking forward to it also Thank you. Yes. We just we just wrapped up a spark foundation
[00:53:05] This show is not over. Sorry total You know, no, we just we just did uh the donna's talking about the spark foundation. There's a celebrity pro am on July 15th Where people just bid for the opportunity to play with all sorts of uh, you know
[00:53:24] Strong, you know, some of the best bridge players in the world and brunia is going to be commenting That's right. Uh, and this next week between when that ended last night for the Event and the players and the event itself people can still buy kibitzing packages. So
[00:53:42] Right. Oh, right Uh, all right. Well, thank you very much and uh, I will let you know when we've got this, uh ready for publication sounds good. All right. Thanks. Thank you Everybody bye