Episode 65: Nathan Gong – Junior Ambassador

Seattle-area teenager Nathan Gong has distinguished himself as an excellent bridge player at regionals, NABCs and, this summer, his first World Youth Championships. He’s also getting noticed as a teacher, having started bridge clubs in middle and high school. With his family and the support of the bridge-playing community, Nathan has helped to teach and mentor a group of kids – and even get some of their parents to learn bridge.

 [3:31] The long road to Nathan’s eventual success in bridge – paved with jealousy.

 [7:33] The Basement Army.

 [13:35] Who’s a better player, Arthur or Nathan?

 [15:22] Nathan talks about “rizzing” Audrey Grant. (And explains what “rizz” means.)

 [19:20] The recruitment process and the role of “Double Dummy.”

 [22:22] Using Whist to introduce bridge concepts.

 [27:08] Nathan’s current bridge training schedule.

 [28:53] How realizing you aren’t as good as you think you are can help you get better.

 [39:09] John’s UVA recruitment pitch.

 [43:07] The exciting story of winning a silver medal at the worlds.

 [52:00] “Serious” about pizza.

 [1:03] The USBF Junior online training program and mentor David Berkowitz’s UI-heavy teaching style.

 [1:06] Arthur – almost a math Olympiad.

 [1:11] 2C is not a preempt.

Read the article from the Phoenix NABC about the Gongs and the benefits of mentorship.

Nathan’s write-up of a deal from the Chicago NABC was picked up by the International Bridge Press Association on page 5: IBPA (The original on page 29 of the Daily Bulletin.)

Transcript:

John McAllister: Nathan Gong. It's great to have you on the Setting Trick.

Nathan Gong: Thank you. Happy to be here.

John McAllister: Nathan is 16 years old, a junior in high school.

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: And was recently featured in the October Bridge Bulletin talking about all his exploits as an ambassador for bridge. And I know Nathan because you reached out to me a couple years ago about Double Dummy because you wanted to show the film. Let's go back to ... By the way, for those who are not watching, Nathan is very sweetly holding his iPod or ... a microphone on his headset to his mouth. He is wanting to do well. I think you can probably ... Why don't you try just letting it hang and see if that ... I think it'll be just as good, man.

Nathan Gong: Okay. How's the sound?

John McAllister: It's not as good. You're right.

Nathan Gong: I knew it. I knew it.

John McAllister: Oh, man. So anyway, Nathan, I was going back through my emails yesterday in preparation for this conversation, and I was kind of a dick. Did you think that? I mean, no wonder nobody's watched Double Dummy. I was like, I got this kid 14 years old at the time, coming in wanting to show it. I'm like bending him over, trying to ... I mean, I was a little embarrassed to read my interactions with you, man. So I'm glad we're friends now. I'm fired up to have you here on the podcast.

Nathan Gong: Thanks. Well, okay. I'll be honest. When I first called you, I remember my dad tried to get Double Dummy, but you thought it was too suspicious. So his idea to send a little kid to avoid suspicion and to try to get the movie shown to some other people, and honestly, I was there from the beginning. I watched the soft launch and I was going to give feedback but I didn't know how. So I was a super fan. So no matter how you communicate to me, I didn't really matter because as long as I could secure Double Dummy, I thought it was amazing and I could talk to the director of what I thought to be like this amazing movie.

John McAllister: Oh, man.

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: Oh, that's so nice. I really appreciate it. That means a lot.

Nathan Gong: Thank you.

John McAllister: I'm so glad I brought that up. And now here you are a couple years later, you're playing in the same event. You're playing on USA1. Yeah.

Nathan Gong: Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to be honest, it was a long road, so I'll be honest. I actually started bridge because of my jealousy towards my brother. So this starts seven years ago when we are just getting pretty good into chess and my dad hires this grandmaster, but things aren't going so well, so he wants us-

John McAllister: Wait, your dad is a chess grandmaster?

Nathan Gong: No. No. He hires this local pro and-

John McAllister: Oh. Got it.

Nathan Gong: -he thinks we're learning nothing and we're not really doing much, because doesn't really understand the game, but what he does understand is bridge. And when I first started into the game, we went to this summer camp. It was the same summer camp that I help teach at now, Bridge for Youth. I thought it was interesting, but I was kind of bored, because I was just sitting there for hours at a time and I had to think about so much. And I didn't really understand a lot of it and I was very confused. But then six years ago, my brother and my dad just started going into these random places and they kept talking about this bridge game, and they kept talking about the results that they have.

And my dad would credit my brother as some kind of genius that keeps carrying him in the game, this prodigal bridge player. So me being the older brother, I had to one up him. So then I started taking up the game. And well, I think it was 2019, where pre-COVID, my brother got into the U.S. team for that year. And then I was like, "Wow, you could actually go so many places and you could just play wherever you want." So that's ... During COVID and pre-COVID is when I started to really get serious into the game and it brought me here.

John McAllister: So your brother is getting into it with your dad. Your dad thinks your brother's a genius and your brother's ... Tell us about your brother. Your brother's name is Arthur and he's 14. He's two years younger than you.

Nathan Gong: Yeah. So at the time he was eight years old and he was half the size I was.

John McAllister: Is it just the two of you?

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: Yeah. And your dad, had he played bridge before you went to this camp or?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, he started learning in college and he actually played with my grandpa who lives with us.

John McAllister: Oh, okay. And does your dad and grandfather both still play?

Nathan Gong: My grandpa not so much but my dad definitely is an active bridge player.

John McAllister: And is he a Life Master?

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: Yeah. And you're a Life Master?

Nathan Gong: Yeah. All three of us are Life Masters now.

John McAllister: Got it. This conversation's taking place on October 20th. Are you going to go to Atlanta for the fall NABC at all?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, for sure. And we're actually bringing some of the kids from the magazine, they're also coming to join us.

John McAllister: Oh, really?

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: So this article in the magazine, tell us a little bit about that. Tell us about the kids that are coming to Atlanta and how did you find out that they were going to interview you for the Bridge Bulletin?

Nathan Gong: Well, so I guess we'll start with how I met the kids. So this was a lot due to my dad because before then we had already done a prototype of that. We started one basement program before these kids, which included using Double Dummy as a promotional device. And we thought that was a pretty good success and we wanted to get more younger, fresher minds. So my dad just got a lot of these people that he thought would be interested in the game. Mainly he got it through their parents, who convinced their kids to join, and then the rest just fell into place. Everybody just ... Most of the kids really got into the game and now they're just amazing. And-

John McAllister: When you say amazing, what do you mean amazing?

Nathan Gong: They're super dedicated. There's a pair right now that is consistently ... they have USBF training, they have practice with us, and they also play Speedballs by themselves. And they often are asking me questions and wanting to postmortem the boards.

John McAllister: That's the best, isn't it? When you've got somebody who really is getting into it and they want to ask questions.

Nathan Gong: Yeah. Oh, and I think it's actually much funnier, the story of how this interview and this article came to life. So this was just after Chicago and we've had pretty not good week of bridge but-

John McAllister: This is the Chicago Nationals this summer. Yeah.

Nathan Gong: Yeah. At the Chicago Nationals. And this is the last day. So we're already depressed and we have the World Youth Championships in a couple of days, and we are just like, whatever, we're going to take the day off and go to the Chicago Art Institute. So out of the blue, my brother spots that my mom is texting Amy Casanova, since we were pretty close with Amy, who wrote up the article. And all she was doing was advertising me and the volunteering thing so I could get an article on the bulletin. And I was very, very, very embarrassed and all I wanted to do was retract what my mom said and be like, "Amy, you don't have to do all of this."

John McAllister: Wait, your mom was the one that was advertising you as a volunteer?

Nathan Gong: So yeah, our family was pretty close with Amy. So out of the blue, my mom just texted Amy and was like, "Hey, so do you want to write an article about my son ... about Nathan and his volunteering with these kids that went to the Chicago Youth Nationals?"

John McAllister: You didn't play in the Youth NABC, did you?

Nathan Gong: Okay. So I played ... So after the Roth, unfortunately we didn't make it to day two, so we actually could play the team championship. And we were leading until the last round, but then I felt very sick, so it was not good. But-

John McAllister: Did you play the last round sick?

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: Wow. Who'd you lose to?

Nathan Gong: We lost to ... I don't remember but I think it was Nicole Qian, who's on the Rona team, Matthew Rippin and two Canadians. It actually wasn't ... They didn't win ... We beat them in a previous round, but because the boards were so short and there was so little competition, another team just came from behind and they beat us up, so then they let them catapult ahead.

John McAllister: Right. Right, right. So that was rough.

Nathan Gong: Yeah. Apologies to our teammates, by the way, Jack Boge and Avery Silverstein, if you're listening to this.

John McAllister: Oh, wow. They were your teammates in the Youth NABC?

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: This is not ... I thought you were going to tell me they were kids from the Seattle program, not ... They won the whatever, the GNT Flight C.

Nathan Gong: Yeah, no, no. We were coming into that thing just assuming that we were going to win.

John McAllister: What events are you playing in in Atlanta?

Nathan Gong: So because I'm a junior now, I'm not going to skip any of my classes, so I'm going to only go for my break. So I'm going to take ... I'm going to do the first three national events. So an LM Pairs and something else. Oh, and then the two-day BAM.

John McAllister: Oh, you know who won that last year?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, I know.

John McAllister: So are you playing with your brother Arthur in that?

Nathan Gong: I actually don't know but I think it's either my dad or my brother. My brother might be playing with his junior ... his now junior ... another junior partner or with a Chinese pro.

John McAllister: Who's better, you or Arthur?

Nathan Gong: Unfortunately, at this moment, I think Arthur's better.

John McAllister: Really?

Nathan Gong: Yeah. That kid just can focus and remember all those cards.

John McAllister: Wow, that must be tough.

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: It's like Richard and Andrew. I think Richard is better than his two-year older brother Andrew also.

Nathan Gong: Yeah. Yeah.

John McAllister: Well, that's big that you can say that, man. I'm sorry I asked, I wasn't expecting that was going to be the answer.

Nathan Gong: No, no, no. No worries. I know ... I was almost ... I don't know, I feel like I've accepted it and I've just got to move on now.

John McAllister: Also, I was looking through our text history and you said something really funny. You said that this was the third most important bridge interview that you've had. That wasn't the funny part. I mean, that was kind of funny. What was really funny is that you said that you rizzed up Audrey Grant.

Nathan Gong: That sounds wrong. That sounds wrong out of context.

John McAllister: I only know what rizz meant ... I only learned the phrase rizz a year ago because Michael Xu was calling himself the Rizz Lord, which he's probably going to get pissed at me for saying. What does it mean? What does rizz mean?

Nathan Gong: So it's like using your personality to impress or convince somebody. Usually rizz is referring to you getting a romantic partner. You're just so nice, you get people. But in this case, it was more-

John McAllister: That's why it's funny. That's why it's funny that that's ... that you rizzed up Audrey Grant.

Nathan Gong: It was an invitation to a podcast, which was similar to a romantic encounter in my opinion. Okay, it was not the same. And I was not suggesting a romantic encounter with Audrey Grant, but I was just trying to describe being nice enough that she was impressed.

John McAllister: So tell us what happened.

Nathan Gong: So this was also in Chicago. This was the first day, and I was severely jet-lagged, but we needed -

John McAllister: Coming from Seattle to Chicago, that just killed you? You just couldn't handle it.

Nathan Gong: My parents are notoriously cheap, so it was like a 1:00 AM red eye. So I slept for zero hours that day. Wait, wait, wait. My parents might hear this, let's just say, hypothetically, there were no other fights available at that time.

John McAllister: Okay.

Nathan Gong: But yeah, so I think we were pretty tired and we were just practicing. So we played this side game and I didn't actually recognize that it was Audrey Grant. I just thought it was this really nice person. And the partner was also extremely nice. And both of them were ... And then we played a couple of boards, and then afterwards, Audrey said she was very impressed by my demeanor at the table. And her partner gave us a bridge magazine. No, sorry, a bridge comic. And then I realized it was Audrey Grant when she gave me her contact info and I was like, "Oh, this is who I was talking to when she invited me on her podcast." And I was like, "Wow, this is pretty impressive." And I convinced her to give me one of her simplified bidding handouts for free.

John McAllister: So how many students are there right now that you're teaching?

Nathan Gong: So there's ... I'm assuming you're talking about the class, so that's three tables, I think a table and a half are parents or a table.

John McAllister: So you're doing a class with your dad where you're teaching kids and parents together?

Nathan Gong: Yeah. And-

John McAllister: And-

Nathan Gong: Sorry. And we're trying to get a new wave of kids as well.

John McAllister: And so tell me why Double Dummy was effective for that. You were showing the version that's on PBS?

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: He's smiling.

Nathan Gong: So this was early into the recruitment process where I didn't really know anybody. And this was outside of the school. Because with the school thing, I just got my friends and I told them to spread the word and I got an interview with James Holzhauer to try to invite people into our club. But specifically outside, I thought Double Dummy was a pretty good representation and pretty dramatic for just a bridge movie. And I think it could draw people in. And we just showed that around to get people to sign up.

John McAllister: Would you just send them a link where they could watch it or would they come watch it with you?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, I just hosted watch parties, so I would be ... And my dad did too when he was teaching as well.

John McAllister: Would people get up at the end and clap or what?

Nathan Gong: I can confirm, I showed it to a bunch of nine-year-olds, so halfway through the movie they were sleeping and they were like, "We've got to start playing some bridge." And in my dad's class, I think some people actually were pretty interested after that. I won't say if there was a standing ovation or not but-

John McAllister: What do you teach people? What do you teach people? What do you teach a beginner?

Nathan Gong: Well, I like what my dad and me thought about and created, which is a little bit different from other people. Actually, that's not true. We just focus on the principles and we focus on the logic that goes behind it. Because if you know the logic, it's much easier to remember. So the rules usually take a while and then we have to get them used to playing the cards. So maybe we play Whist first, but then after a while, I start talking about the principles and then I start giving out handouts. I give these tables for easy reference about a situation and with what hand, what do you do? And I give a list of priorities so they can know what to go through.

John McAllister: Will you share that with me when we're done? So I mean, if we could share it on the website-

Nathan Gong: Yeah, sure.

John McAllister: -that would be cool. So I have a friend, actually a woman that I did some coaching with, she was coaching me, a performance coach, and she texted me the other day saying that she was playing Whist with her kids, which I was like, that's great. She knows I love bridge. And so how do you do Whist? How do you ... What's the scoring? What's the deal? What's the trump? How do you do that?

Nathan Gong: Well, we don't really have a scoring method. We just tell them whoever takes the most amount of tricks will win. And we introduce high card points and trumps at the same time. So basically whoever has the most amount of high card points will get to declare the hand. And their longest suit will just be considered trump, unless they're three, three, four, three, which then we'll just call no-trump.

John McAllister: When you say you're playing Whist, then there's no dummy.

Nathan Gong: There still is. We play modified Whist I guess. At first there's no dummy. And then later on we introduced this concept of dummy and it becomes more like hearts, I guess. I don't know. It becomes like playing bridge, just playing the cards.

John McAllister: But no bidding.

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: And are these pre dealt hands or are you just dealing hands and letting them figure it out?

Nathan Gong: Yeah. We're just dealing hands.

John McAllister: How many of these kids, or maybe adults too, that are in this program do you think are going to come to Atlanta?

Nathan Gong: So let me think. So there's definitely going to be seven I think, eight-ish, with four kids and three to four adults. And I think we might expect more but I'm not completely sure. I think my dad told me who was coming but it may be actually the whole group of 12.

John McAllister: And are you going to be there for Thanksgiving?

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: Yeah. You think going to Atlanta, that's a long way for ... They're not going to be playing in the national events, are they?

Nathan Gong: They're not going to play ... What we suggested to them wasn't playing the NABC or NABC+ events. So more like the limited games, like the 499ers and the Gold Rush Pairs to help improve their experience.

John McAllister: And your mom, does she play bridge at all?

Nathan Gong: No. She can't stand how boring it is. And we've tried to convince her multiple times but she doesn't budge.

John McAllister: But she's still friends with Amy Casanova in spite of not being a bridge player.

Nathan Gong: Yeah. So she goes to bridge tournaments for the connections and for the experience of the location but she never actually touches a card.

John McAllister: If we were to ask Arthur who's better between you and your dad, who would he say?

Nathan Gong: I think he would say me, hopefully, because my dad's getting old.

John McAllister: But your dad was kind of sly. He was working the kid angle on the film with me, which I'm glad we've gotten that out into the world. So you're a junior, you go to Eastside Prep in Seattle. Are you on the tennis team?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, I'm on the tennis team, but our school is small. So you don't need any skill to be on the team. Everybody's just a varsity player.

John McAllister: You have varsity tennis. I was looking you up yesterday. I saw that you guys played ... I think it was called Seattle Academy in doubles. And you guys ... I think you and your partner lost 6-1 6-0.

Nathan Gong: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, let me recall that. No, no, I think you're talking about the other Gong. My brother also played in that match. I think I was playing singles but I'm not sure ... Actually, but-

John McAllister: Did you lose singles 6-0 6-1?

Nathan Gong: No, no, no, no, no. Before you slander me, I would like to say that I've only lost two matches. Okay. I've never been owned yet.

John McAllister: Really? Can you beat your brother in tennis?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, he's still a scrawny little kid. He might be good at bridge but I can still dominate him in physical sports.

John McAllister: How much bridge do you play?

Nathan Gong: Well, I used to be really way too much bridge every day. So especially now, since I'm a junior, I've cut a lot of it back. So now I'm doing USBF training once a week and I'm doing a separate training with David Berkowitz once a week. And I'm also teaching if that counts, twice or three times, depending on the week. And sometimes I play Saturday with Tom ... I mean, with Jenni or with a local expert.

John McAllister: Do you love it?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, I can't get enough of the game but-

John McAllister: Really?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, I mean, I just think it's thrilling. I love to think about it and I think it makes me better. I know before I started ... Okay, oh no, I can't believe I'm going to reveal this. But during COVID, I had the worst sportsmanship ever and-

John McAllister: Oh, wow.

Nathan Gong: Especially in tennis, I would rage really bad. And one time I actually destroyed one of my rackets.

John McAllister: Oh my God.

Nathan Gong: But playing bridge with my dad during COVID and us screaming at each other during the postmortems brought me back. And when I realized I was not as good as I thought I was as a bridge player, everything just was better. And I think I improved a lot as a person because of bridge. Okay. So I guess we'll start from the beginning of the World Youth Championships. So I was just humiliated by Mother. Well, my mom ... This was just when my mom exposed me and was trying to get that article with Amy Casanova.

John McAllister: Right. Which she did. Your mom was successful in it, by the way.

Nathan Gong: And I was very appreciative. Okay, at the time, I thought it was humiliation, but not anymore. So we just arrived to the World Youth Championships and still pretty nervous. So-

John McAllister: Both your parents also went with you?

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: Okay.

Nathan Gong: My mom mostly for a vacation.

John McAllister: And it's in the Netherlands. It's in the Netherlands.

Nathan Gong: Yeah. Sorry.

John McAllister: No, you didn't do anything wrong. I'm just giving context for people that don't know.

Nathan Gong: Yeah. Okay. So my dad was actually for the first few days, not there. So my mom was just babysitting us and I already had a stomach bug from the ending of Chicago. I was throwing up during the last few days and it didn't get ... It actually got worse in the Netherlands for the first few days. So I started throwing up in the IMP Pairs and I just played absolutely horrible and I was like, "I need to change this." So the next event was a pretty big one, the U21 Pairs. And there was pretty tough competition. Michael and Olivia were also there, and I was just like, whatever. I'm feeling sick every day. And that morning I had already thrown up. I'm like, I'll just give it my best shot. And somehow after the first session, everybody kept giving us free boards and we ended up in first. We were not the first American pair, we were not just ahead of Olivia and Michael, we are ahead of everybody in the field.

And I was amazed and I was like, this is never going to hold up. So I was just telling everybody, "Let's go. We are the top American pair." Because that's all I wanted to be. All I had to have was bragging rights over Michael and Olivia. And thankfully we continued our winning streak for the second and third sessions. I think we fell to fourth maybe on the third session, but we were still holding pretty strong. I think at that point, Michael and Olivia may have surpassed us, but I'm not completely sure. I have to check the results. Oh, sorry. No, we were still leading after the first day. And the second day, again, I still was feeling very, very bad. This is a three-day event, so this is a second qualifying day. And somehow I still ended up, even when I made a mistake, people just kept giving me free gifts. So again, we maintained our first after four sessions.

John McAllister: Wow.

Nathan Gong: In the first session, we were actually holding strong at a strong 69%.

John McAllister: Oh my God.

Nathan Gong: Yeah. It was pretty amazing that we were still first after four sessions and I immediately was sleeping at the table. I was just that sick. But all I remember from that was Sam and Michael ... Okay, so this is another pair. They're from the USA too and got silver in the World Youth Championships. They walked up to me and they were laughing and they were telling me how the people that ... Simon Cope's son, Andrew Cope and his-

John McAllister: Oh, he's not related to Simon I think actually. I've asked him about it. Yeah.

Nathan Gong: Oh, sorry. Well, there was an Andrew Cope and some other person. They were pretty well known there. And they were like, "These Nathan and Arthur ... Nathan's throwing up every day and yet they're still in first." And I was happy that I had that street cred and I was staying strong. Unfortunately, that didn't last every day and at the end we were like 11th, so it was okay, but we could not say that we were the first American pair anymore.

John McAllister: 11th. That's pretty good though, isn't it?

Nathan Gong: It was-

John McAllister: You feel like you should have done better.

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: Yeah. Yeah. Did you think you're going to win on the third day at all?

Nathan Gong: I think on the third day we were fourth or something, so I think we had some chances. But ironically, when I felt better the last session, everybody kept playing good bridge. Like the Andrew Cope I was talking about found this amazing sacrifice after almost hitting us in four spades ... in six hearts to get a good board against us.

John McAllister: What's it like when you talk with your brother Arthur about bridge?

Nathan Gong: Well, Arthur knows a lot about bridge. He never forgets anything, so usually it's a little one-sided, unfortunately. So I just ask him what he thinks happened, if I did anything wrong or anything, and then he'll just let me know what he's thinking. And yeah, usually, if we have a bad session, we don't talk about it. So unfortunately we don't have lots of postmortems as a partnership. Good sessions, we're just like, "Let's go. Let's go celebrate." And then we just end it there.

John McAllister: But you don't argue with him about stuff?

Nathan Gong: Oh, no. Don't get me wrong. Sometimes I think he's extremely crazy and his actions make no sense. But after long discussions and talks, we can always sort it out. And we do sleep in the same room for bridge events, so we still have to work it out eventually.

John McAllister: Can you still beat him up?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, thankfully.

John McAllister: What kind of questions are your students asking you that are wanting to postmortem these boards?

Nathan Gong: Well-

John McAllister: What's a recent question they asked you?

Nathan Gong: Well, they're getting pretty into it, so we've covered a lot now. So they're asking pretty advanced questions. So they were asking about cases for unusual two no-trump. They were talking about specific uses for conventions and they were talking about continuations of two over one. We described parts of that but they asked really specific and really thoughtful questions, which I was very impressed by.

John McAllister: And these are your peers, these are kids that in your grade at school?

Nathan Gong: They're Arthur's grade.

John McAllister: And how do you get them to come to the ... What is it that you're getting them to come to start out? What's your pitch to get them to start out?

Nathan Gong: Well, I just say bridge is this fun game. You can meet a bunch of celebrities-

John McAllister: Celebrities.

Nathan Gong: -and sometimes I show them Double Dummy. But parents, I've actually ... me and my dad have found are a really, really strong driving factor because kids often listen to their parents. Well, here. If you can convince the parents, you can convince the kid.

John McAllister: In this article in the Bridge Bulletin it said that bridge is a big part of your life. So are people asking you about bridge a lot, like your classmates?

Nathan Gong: So unfortunately, they all think it's this old person card game. And I've convinced some of my nerdy friends to learn ... they've learned the card game but everybody at our school has a lot of things on their plate. We're a college preparatory school, so it gets busy sometimes. So they haven't really gone into the game. They're pretty interested but they're saying down the road they might do more stuff. But overall, in general with all my classmates, they know. Because it's like whenever we have to talk about personal stuff, I can default to bridge. And so my identity at school is it's either my math or it's my bridge.

John McAllister: And your dad's a math teacher at Eastside, isn't that right?

Nathan Gong: He was a math teacher at University Prep, which is another college prep school. But right now he's figuring some things out. I think he might come over but I don't know.

John McAllister: Okay. Some employment scuttlebutt here on the podcast. What about college? Where do you think you want to go to college?

Nathan Gong: So I know you're leading towards UVA.

John McAllister: No, just be honest with me. Just tell me straight, I want to hear what you're thinking.

Nathan Gong: Well, okay, I'll say this is mainly ... this is strongly influenced by my parents since I don't really know what's the difference between colleges and whatever the college reps say sways me. So right now I've been looking at a UChicago since that representative was really cool and I've been looking at Wharton and some of the other Ivy business schools. Because I want to study finance and math, financial mathematics, and I want to do something similar to your career.

John McAllister: Yeah. So doesn't UVA have a really good undergraduate business program?

Nathan Gong: I have not actually looked at the UVA business program. I'm going to be honest. But I'll consider it. I will look at it.

John McAllister: Do you like basketball?

Nathan Gong: No. Kind of?

John McAllister: No? We have a really good basketball team. I was going to say, you could come ... So when I was growing up, I went to a boarding school, college prep boarding school, and one of my best friends went to UVA who was a year older than me, and I used to come and hang out with him at UVA and I had the best time. And that's how that, and being a UVA sports fan, was how I had to come here. But it's far. You're in Seattle, you're on the other side of the country.

Nathan Gong: Location doesn't matter as long as the education is good.

John McAllister: Well, what would it take to get you to come to Charlottesville during school, during the school year, to see UVA and just get a taste for it?

Nathan Gong: You would need to convince my parents. That is the key limiting factor in this equation.

John McAllister: Okay. So your mom, I should probably talk to your mom in Atlanta.

Nathan Gong: That-

John McAllister: Maybe pay for the plane ticket.

Nathan Gong: That might work.

John McAllister: That would really be talking. We get you to stay with somebody from the Bridge Club and ... Yeah. Where did your parents go to school?

Nathan Gong: Well, my dad went to a Chinese University [inaudible 00:41:54]. And then he went to ... He did not know how to apply to colleges here, so he went to Boston University for a geography degree, out of all degrees. And that was not great.

John McAllister: Did he go for four years?

Nathan Gong: I believe he went for three years. And then I don't think I can go to any other details about what happened. But I think he secured a degree at the end. And my mom's path was a little bit more straightforward and she went to a university ... Oh wait, no, she went to University of Maryland for a computer science degree.

John McAllister: Oh, that's one of our rivals. That's one of UVA's rivals.

Nathan Gong: Unfortunate.

John McAllister: They're not in the ACC anymore though, so we don't really play them in sports, but they used to be ... we always would play them in football and basketball. And they've got a pretty good basketball team.

Nathan Gong: Mm-hmm. Okay. So actually, I have a really funny story about what happened at the end to secure our silver medal. So I guess we'll start from the ending of the knockouts. So we just had lost to USA2, which was a pretty crushing loss I would say. A pretty bad loss to ... pretty sad loss to USA2. We were tossed around for a couple of quarters and we almost made a comeback. Our team without me and Arthur almost staged ... It was really, really close at the end, nail-biting. But unfortunately we couldn't get it done. So we were just playing in this open consolation type BAM. And first, we sit down and we're playing the first segment because parts of our team is just really tired. So we start the first segment and the boards are flat, boring-ish, but we sit down ... we first sit down to USA2, U26, which is ... and our screenmates are Brent and Richard.

These are people I've been looking at the bridge world. This is the people from the movie. I was very surprised and pretty nervous to play people like that. So it was not a great start. But thankfully, yeah, so we had an average-ish game and our teammates also brought in okay results. But nothing very inspiring, just we were not going to qualify with what we were at that point. So second session I was feeling pretty sick again, so I decided, you know what, I'll just sit out. And then, after the second session, it was shocking because Arthur decided to play. I forgot to mention that. And Arthur was playing with ... I forgot, it was Harrison, I think. And Bruce was playing with Michael because we were just mixing it up because we didn't think we were going to qualify. And Arthur and Harrison and Michael and Bruce bring back a pretty good card.

And now we are in contention to go in for the qualification for the final day and we're pretty excited. But I was like, I'm not going to screw up our chances for qualifying. I don't want the blame on me. So I was like, "Arthur, how about you take another session." So now Arthur decides to play with Bruce, and Harrison decides to chill with me. And Michael is playing with Olivia. So me and Harrison are chilling. We're having a blast. I'm beating him up ... No. Okay. I can't say that. Harrison's going to expose me. But we play some ping pong and we play some chess, and I can say I beat him up in chess. This 1800 in chess.com.

John McAllister: He's 1800 in chess.com?

Nathan Gong: Yeah. But sometimes he plays like a 800, I'm not going to lie. I don't really-

John McAllister: What's your rating?

Nathan Gong: I don't really have an Elo on chess.com. I've played like three games but I'm like 1200 chess.com and 1200 face-to-face.

John McAllister: You've played in real chess tournaments?

Nathan Gong: Yeah. This was again with the grandmaster that I was talking about before. But what were we talking about?

John McAllister: The BAM.

Nathan Gong: Okay. Yeah.

John McAllister: The BAM.

Nathan Gong: Sorry, the BAM. So we were feeling good and we just walked back and we're expecting nothing, me and Harrison. And what happens is Arthur and Bruce are beyond joy. They're absolutely ecstatic. And I'm very confused. Like, "What happened?" And I hear that they got a 95% game. We had a 23 out of 25 or something ridiculous.

John McAllister: Oh my God.

Nathan Gong: We did not lose a single board in those 26 boards.

John McAllister: Wow, that's amazing.

Nathan Gong: So we came home with a fifth and we were just absolutely so happy. So we were like, "Screw these regular partnerships. I'm playing with Harrison, Arthur's playing with Bruce." So come final day, Arthur and Bruce just have ... I don't know how their game went but I think it was really, really good. Because we were first, fourth, second, and third throughout the day. Nothing else. It didn't matter who was on as long as Arthur and Bruce ... I think Arthur and Bruce were playing the entire time and Michael and Olivia were bringing us ... in the first and second, they were doing really well. I was feeling, again, pretty sick. So I satout. It was just-

John McAllister: Are you better now?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, yeah. Okay. I did recover after that but I was still feeling pretty bad. So they played the first two and we were first by barely anything. So now me and Harrison have to bring it home with Arthur and Bruce. So thankfully we did pretty good. We had two tough losses, which unfortunately cost us first place, but we were 0.5 away. And I would like to say, afterwards we were too nervous to even talk. And all I remember from that was we finished, we compared, and we were either first or second and second. First was ahead of us by a whole board, so we were not expecting to win. But then I was playing squash with some of the other people and-

John McAllister: Squash?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, they had some squash court for some reason. So we rented it out and we played some squash and suddenly Sam, again from that team, and Ramon just walk up. They just suddenly, in the middle of our squash match, just tell me, "Oh, did you know you might be getting first place by 0.5 of a board?" And I was ... No. 0.5 points, which was like a eighth of a board. And I was like, "Wow, this cannot be happening. I'm getting punked here." And sure enough, it was real, but unfortunately they adjusted it to a half score, they rigged it, so we lost by 0.7.

John McAllister: Oh, man.

Nathan Gong: So yeah, we ended up getting second.

John McAllister: So you got the silver medal.

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: Would you have been able to get a star on BBO if you got the gold medal?

Nathan Gong: I don't know. Honestly? Maybe.

John McAllister: Would you have found out if you'd gotten the gold medal? Would you have looked into it?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, I think I would have been able ... I might've actually looked into it.

John McAllister: How close did it get in the quarterfinal loss to USA2? Because you guys, you made up a ton of IMPs in the fourth quarter. What was the closest it was in the fourth quarter, can you ... You can't-

Nathan Gong: I-

John McAllister: Because you were down a ton. You were down 80 IMPs I think and almost made it back, which is unbelievable.

Nathan Gong: I don't remember. I'm not going to lie. It was within 10 I think. But I don't want to slander USA2 because they're also really good friends of me. I'm really good friends with most of the members and I also really don't want to slander our team. So I'm just going to say it was 10 but I'm not sure.

John McAllister: Have you ever been to Serious Pie?

Nathan Gong: Serious Pie.

John McAllister: Yeah.

Nathan Gong: What's that?

John McAllister: In Seattle.

Nathan Gong: No.

John McAllister: Pizza place. Oh, one of my favorite pizza places is in Seattle.

Nathan Gong: What? How have I never been here?

John McAllister: It's downtown. There's two locations I think but there's a downtown location called Serious Pie, where when we went out there, when we were filming Double Dummy, we interviewed Phil Gordon out there. Does he ever come to the Bridge Club, the poker player?

Nathan Gong: No, I haven't seen him.

John McAllister: And we stayed ... Matt Koltnow, the director, he told me, he said, "You've got to go to Serious Pie." And I went there twice. We were there for two nights. I went there twice in the time that we were there.

Nathan Gong: Damn.. I have to check it out now.

John McAllister: For sure.

Nathan Gong: How have I never heard of this? Oh my God. My mom has been scamming me. And Matt, I can't believe Matt has never told me about this place.

John McAllister: I mean, I fell in love with Neapolitan pizza. I love Neapolitan pizza. And it was because of Serious Pie.

Nathan Gong: What? Okay. I love Neapolitan pizza.

John McAllister: You do?

Nathan Gong: Okay. This is mainly because my mom only took me to Neapolitan places when we were in New York. There was an exception of Prince Street, but besides that, it was Juliana's, it was ... I can't remember.

John McAllister: Giordano's.

Nathan Gong: Huh?

John McAllister: Giordano's.

Nathan Gong: Oh yeah, yeah. Giordano's and that other place. I'll remember it.

John McAllister: All right, you've got to go there stat.

Nathan Gong: Okay. Okay.

John McAllister: Rizz some people. Rizz your mom up.

Nathan Gong: No, no, no, no, no.

John McAllister: Rizz your mom up. Get her to take you to Serious Pie, get some Neapolitan pizza. I want to hear about it. And then we're going to get you to Charlottesville. You don't even know who you're playing with in Atlanta.

Nathan Gong: I definitely have a partner. I just don't know who it is.

John McAllister: Right. Who's your partner in the USBF Junior Program right now?

Nathan Gong: It's between three people. So it's Arthur, that's solid partnership that we do. And I've been trying to practice more with Avery Silverstein. So she also took silver in the U16s and her father's Aaron Silverstein.

John McAllister: Yeah, I've known Avery for a long time actually.

Nathan Gong: Oh yeah, because she's also in that area.

John McAllister: Well, I was friends with her parents. Yeah, so it's been really cool to see her take up the game.

Nathan Gong: Yeah, that's true. And the third one is Nicole, which I talked about before.

John McAllister: Who was on the Rona team?

Nathan Gong: Right.

John McAllister: Is the USBF Junior Program in full swing right now?

Nathan Gong: Okay-

John McAllister: Because it was not going on for a while, was it?

Nathan Gong: It was under Alex's leadership and I think it was still run pretty well and there was still stuff going on but I am pretty fortunate to not have to deal with most of the reorganization and stuff because we are just in a structured one-on-one type of thing. So besides with Roger Lee when he was captaining NPC-ing, our U21 team, our USBF has mainly just been with Aaron and I actually set up the group. So it was almost ... It was part of the USBF, under the guise of it, but it was a little bit separate from the main reorganization stuff. So we were more independent and we have our own Discord and we could do our own stuff at our own time.

John McAllister: So Aaron is your mentor?

Nathan Gong: Yeah. For now at least, but yeah, probably for all of it.

John McAllister: How's it go when he and Avery have a disagreement about something?

Nathan Gong: Well, Avery just defers to Aaron, so Avery will just say, okay, he'll just say, "Okay, Aaron Silverstein," or something snarky back at his dad ... at her dad, sorry. And yeah, we also considered Tom, which is an amazing mentor by the way, Tom Carmichael. But I didn't want to steal him away from already his many commitments, so I just didn't ask him.

John McAllister: Didn't you play in the Soloway with Tom and Jenni last year?

Nathan Gong: We play-

John McAllister: Did you and Arthur?

Nathan Gong: -regional events together but I don't-

John McAllister: In the Phoenix NABC, didn't you play the Soloway with them?

Nathan Gong: I played with Tom but Jenni was directing. I think she was directing the Soloway. Tom had ... No, this was ... the Soloway was not with me actually. I actually already flew home for schoolwork, but Arthur and Tom, they were finding teammates and fortunately they stumbled ... Okay, it wouldn't be stumbled, but they were asked by Radu Nistor and I don't know how to say Nistor's first name, but yeah.

John McAllister: Radu.

Nathan Gong: No, Radu ... Sorry. Yeah, Radu Nistor and Rotaru. Sorry, I don't know Rotaru's-

John McAllister: Oh, Max.

Nathan Gong: Oh yeah, Max, right.

John McAllister: Everybody calls him Max.

Nathan Gong: Right.

John McAllister: That's pretty good teammates.

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: So they qualified?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, for sure. And oh, I think they might've had another pair as well. Ray Miller and somebody else.

John McAllister: Okay. Man. What was your James Holzhauer interview?

Nathan Gong: Oh, so this was another thing that was encouraged by my parents, thankfully. But so Jenni is good friends with James and-

John McAllister: Jenni Carmichael's good friends with James Holzhauer?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, Jenni Carmichael. So I told her, but I also just directly emailed James and he replied back in a few days, which was pretty cool. And yeah, we set it up.

John McAllister: But where's this interview available?

Nathan Gong: Okay, so I messed up the recording because it only had James's face because he was pinned, because there was multiple people in the call. So it's only James responding to questions and hearing questions and his reaction. So we haven't actually published it. Maybe I'll edit it and send a video.

John McAllister: What is it like when you tell people that James Holzhauer plays bridge when you're telling your contemporaries?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, unfortunately, half the people I talked to don't know who James Holzhauer is, so it doesn't even land. But the other half are super impressed because they're freaking out over it. But usually I just show them the picture I have with Bill Gates and that works.

John McAllister: Does Bill Gates play bridge at a club in Seattle?

Nathan Gong: Oh no, I just stumbled across him in Phoenix or something. It was one of the NABCs and I just got a photo with him. There was Avery and Jack in the background as well.

John McAllister: If you could teach one person in the world bridge, who would it be?

Nathan Gong: I think I would teach my mom bridge and have her actually learn the game, that way she'll know how good it is, and then we can have a family team and we could have so many things as a four-player group in our family.

John McAllister: Who's the best bridge playing family?

Nathan Gong: Oh no, I'm going to get called out for this if I don't say the right names, but-

John McAllister: Come on, rank me some bridge playing families.

Nathan Gong: Okay. I only know three, so-

John McAllister: All right, well rank them.

Nathan Gong: Okay. Okay, number one, sorry. Okay, that's not true. Number one has to be the Rimstedts. They have so many connections and isn't Kevin Dwyer also part of that?

John McAllister: He's married to Cecilia Rimstedt.

Nathan Gong: Yeah. Right.

John McAllister: Yeah. Okay. Rimstedts one, Gongs two.

Nathan Gong: No, I can't be two. I have to be bottom of the list. Okay, the number-

John McAllister: All right. Give me some more.

Nathan Gong: Number two has to be ... Okay, when you say bridge playing families, do they have to be three or more or-

John McAllister: I don't know, man, it's your list.

Nathan Gong: Because if you count marriages, there's so many marriages that are technically families.

John McAllister: Okay, well it's your list.

Nathan Gong: Okay. I guess number two would have to be ... I can't think of any family. Okay. I'll just say the Silversteins because Aaron is just too good and Avery's also very good. And then put myself in ... I guess I'll put the Gongs at number three because I can't think of anybody else.

John McAllister: How did you get ... You said you're in a group with David Berkowitz. What's that?

Nathan Gong: Oh, shoot. David Berkowitz is number one for sure. Sorry, I completely forgot there was a bridge playing family. I knew I was forgetting somebody. Okay. Okay. So this was actually because David Berkowitz was one of the partnership coaches, so he got to train us pre-World Youth Championship and thankfully he's not sick of us yet.

John McAllister: So you just have a standing ... When do you meet with David?

Nathan Gong: Usually it's Sundays at six but sometimes it'll change depending on schedules and-

John McAllister: And who else is in the group?

Nathan Gong: Usually I play with my brother but I usually ... I sometimes get other people on, so like Nicole or Avery or some other person. And we usually play against Olivia and Brian.

John McAllister: Schireson?

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: And Brian Zhang.

Nathan Gong: Yeah.

John McAllister: And then David just kibitzes and-

Nathan Gong: Yeah, and he just goes over hands and walks us through stuff.

John McAllister: How does it work? Does he stop after a hand and you go through the hand or do you play a set of boards and then he goes over afterwards?

Nathan Gong: Okay. So his style is unique and it gives off a lot of UI, but after a card is played, he's like, "Oh, maybe that may have not been your best choice or something." And sometimes we'll just pretend not to listen but sometimes I can't resist, when it's like a doubled slam, to just beat the contract from that information.

John McAllister: When do you think you realized that your brother was better than you are?

Nathan Gong: Unfortunately, this was ... I would say I always thought of him better than me and he was what I was trying to aspire to be at the goal for levels. Because whenever I was improving, he was improving, and he was already this superstar when he was playing with my dad. My dad wasn't lying when he said my brother was a prodigy at 2018. They were winning B Flights all the time for regionals and I'll just say, when Tom and Jenni first met us too seriously for bridge, they were super impressed by Arthur.

And I was too nervous and I kept trying to ... I thought they would think I was a really bad player and not want to teach me. So I kept pretending like I wasn't taking it seriously, which I'm not going to lie, backfired because since they thought I was not valuing their time, but thankfully it all worked out. But also, but yeah, Arthur's just always ... It's clear to most people that know us and play with us that Arthur's just a lot stronger. And I've known this since I started and I think I'll know this until one of us stops playing bridge.

John McAllister: I don't have any ... I have three sisters but I think it would be really hard to have a younger brother that's better than me in something. I'm pretty competitive in sports and in bridge. I can't imagine what that would be like. I think it says a lot about you and about bridge that you still keep at it and that you still play.

Nathan Gong: Thank you. I mean, he's just really good at a lot of things and unfortunately with him, in some things, I just can't compete. He's also a math whiz. There's this thing called the USAMO, which is the United States ... it's the national math competition. If you do well in this, you make the U.S. math team and you can just compete and represent U.S. in the International Math Olympiad, which is the most prestigious event in math for juniors. And I kid you not, in eighth ... Okay, so last year in eighth grade, he was one problem short. He literally answered the bubbles wrong or else he would've been in the United States American Math Olympiad competing for a spot on the team. That's the top 200 math elites.

John McAllister: Wow. So do your parents shine him up and not think about you so much?

Nathan Gong: Thankfully my parents are very chill and very nice, so they hold us to ... they always try to uplift both of us at the same time. And I'm more ... I have ... I talk more than him and I'm more active and social.

John McAllister: Yeah. You're more social than he is.

Nathan Gong: I'm more socially active than he is, so we focus on different parts of our life and aspects of our person.

John McAllister: What else? What else? What else? Have you listened to a fair amount of The Setting Trick interviews?

Nathan Gong: I can tell you my dad is a big fan but-

John McAllister: Oh, really?

Nathan Gong: Yeah, he was watching all of them and he was telling me, "You know, you've got to listen to all of these podcasts. These are all so good. Did you know this about Tom and Jenni?" I'll be honest, I'm not ... I'm also really a fan but I'm not as obsessed as he is. So I've watched some episodes but I will admit I have not watched all of them. And I did not actually know how many episodes you had until I looked today.

John McAllister: We've got to have dinner in Atlanta with the Gong family. I want to have dinner with the Gong family in Atlanta, get to know your mom and your dad a little bit.

Nathan Gong: Sounds good.

John McAllister: And talk them up about ... talk UVA up to them.

Nathan Gong: Yeah, of course, of course.

John McAllister: Are you better than Kalita? We're going to bring that back.

Nathan Gong: Kalita?

John McAllister: Yeah. Jacek Kalita.

Nathan Gong: Wait-

John McAllister: Polish multiple World Champion.

Nathan Gong: Wait, what is this from?

John McAllister: That was a question that I was doing for a while. Because it came from Meckstroth. I was interviewing Meckstroth and I asked him if he was better than Kalita. And so then I started asking everybody that.

Nathan Gong: Unfortunately I do not think at this time I'm better than Kalita. Yeah, I knew who you were saying. But yeah, I will tell you, I did actually ... Oh, I don't know if it was Kalita, but I played a Zimmerman and his partner with Tom Carmichael at some open pairs' event. It was like a Silodor Open. And I was just trolling around because I did not think we were doing so good. So I made this really bad overcall and afterwards, in the postmortem, both Tom and Jenni were very, very disappointed in me, but it worked wonders against them and we got a good board.

John McAllister: What's the best bridge prank that you've ever heard? You got any good bridge pranks?

Nathan Gong: What do you mean by bridge pranks?

John McAllister: I don't know. Something that somebody ... I don't know. Maybe it's a bad question.

Nathan Gong: No, no, no. Wait. Okay. Actually, I have something that I remember, but this is not really a prank. More of me accidentally punking somebody at the bridge table.

John McAllister: Okay.

Nathan Gong: This was a really, really long time ago. I think this was five or six years ago. It might've even been seven, when I was ... I really didn't know anything about bridge. All I knew was preempts. So I hold six clubs and some random hand that I was like, "Oh, maybe I can preempt two clubs." So the auction went two clubs, pass, two diamonds, pass, pass, pass. This was at 8:00 PM and my dad was telling me to drink coffee. So I'm like, whatever. So I just fell asleep after that two diamonds. But all I know was it went down four and I was depressed. I was like, "Oh my God, why did I bid two clubs?" Because I'd realized afterwards that two diamonds was forced. My brother brought it up. Because I was confused why he didn't just pass my preempts. And then I was like, oh, shoot. I showed 22 points and then my dad and my brother were like, "Don't worry, don't worry." They had slam and they had the diamond bid. So 200 was a cold top.

John McAllister: That's illegal. You can't psych a two club ... you can't psych an artificial opening I think. But anyway, it sounds like you didn't get caught.

Nathan Gong: Yeah, I'll just pretend that ... I mean, it was technically a mistake, so I don't think it was a psych, but if you've got to put me in bridge jail, I understand. You can turn me in.

John McAllister: All right. Well, I am grateful for what you're doing with getting your friends and their parents playing bridge. I realize we didn't really talk about that that much though.

Nathan Gong: Actually in middle school I started a bridge club as well with my dad and that was really good for me. And this was when I was just starting bridge. So I just wanted to share the game. And thankfully we had the help of two amazing volunteers. So obviously Al Bender which we talked about a bit before, and Allison Welsh and I think they're still holding strong there. And then I also started a high school bridge club and it started with just a bunch of my nerdy friends and we would just play cards, shuffle, and I would just give everybody a little bit of advice and get them hooked. Unfortunately, surprisingly, actually, a lot of them wanted to learn about the game more, so I regret not teaching them a bit more now that they're gone.

But I still get references to the bridge game that we've had. Because this one person missed a grand slam and only went to five clubs, and I was his partner. So whenever I see him and he talks about disappointing stuff, he would just bring it up. He'd be like, "Oh man, this is like that grand slam." Or anybody else at the table, they'd just be like, "Oh, you know about this kid?" At least I didn't miss grand slam. And at least I'll never get to this grand slam, unlike this person. I don't understand how you can be an Eagles fan.

John McAllister: Who's your team?

Nathan Gong: Okay, we don't talk about it because the Seahawks are ... Okay, we don't talk about it. But yeah, the Seahawks.

John McAllister: I'm an Eagles fan because I was born in Philadelphia.

Nathan Gong: But what about all your loyalties to Virginia?

John McAllister: Well, who should I be a fan of?

Nathan Gong: That's a good question. I would say you should stick to college football and for outside of college football, you can support the Giants. That way you-

John McAllister: What's your favorite sports team?

Nathan Gong: I would say it's probably the Seahawks, but unfortunately, that's not holding strong for me. So maybe-

John McAllister: What's the Seahawks' record right now?

Nathan Gong: It's like three and two.

John McAllister: That's not terrible.

Nathan Gong: We're like second in our mini conference but I would hope ... It's not been good since we lost to Russell Wilson. And I will say that my soccer team, football team, has been doing even worse.

John McAllister: Is that Seattle also?

Nathan Gong: No. Well, yeah, I support the Sounders but I was talking about the Premier League in England. I support Chelsea and unfortunately Zia supports two of my biggest enemies and my grandpa and both of them are doing significantly better than I am. So not good.

John McAllister: What was I going to say? I was actually a Seahawks fan when I was a kid.

Nathan Gong: Oh. What-

John McAllister: Yeah. Back when they had Dave Krieg, Curt Warner, Steve Largent, Brian Bosworth. Yeah. Long time ago. '80s. Mid '80s. I was a Seahawks fan. I don't know why I was a Seahawks fan.

Nathan Gong: You should have kept that up.

John McAllister: No, I dropped them. Yeah. My grandmother was an Eagles fan. I was born in Philadelphia and I'm a Sixers and Phillies fan, so I just ... How about them Phillies?

Nathan Gong: Fair enough. I will say this is less disappointing than my history teacher, who I will say is both an Eagles fan and ... What was that? Not Mets. What's that other team?

John McAllister: Yankees.

Nathan Gong: Yankees fan.

John McAllister: Oh my God.

Nathan Gong: Oh my-

John McAllister: That's impossible.

Nathan Gong: I don't even understand how that works. This person, I will not mention names because I won't call this person out, but very disappointing.

John McAllister: Do you have good grades?

Nathan Gong: What do you think? I'm Asian. Come on now. I have to have good grades. But yeah.

John McAllister: Do you have a 4.0? You have a higher than a 4.0 because of weight points, right?

Nathan Gong: No, we have a max 4.0 at our school with weighting-

John McAllister: But you don't have a 4.0?

Nathan Gong: Okay. Look I have a 3.95.

John McAllister: Have you taken SAT or ACT?

Nathan Gong: I'm going to take the SAT in December.

John McAllister: All right. You'll have to let us know how you're doing then.

Nathan Gong: All right. All right.

John McAllister: All right, man. We're going to get you to Charlottesville. We're going to have dinner in Atlanta.

Nathan Gong: Sounds good.

John McAllister: And I'll let you know when we've got ... if we can make something of this.

Nathan Gong: All right. Sounds good.

John McAllister: Thanks a lot, Nathan.

Nathan Gong: Thank you so much.

John McAllister: Good to see you, man.

Nathan Gong: Thanks, John.

John McAllister: Appreciate what you're doing.

Nathan Gong: Thank you.