John McAllister chats with 35-year-old Owen Lien of Oak Park MI about Junior Bridge, directing on BBO, playing professionally and highs and lows in national events. Owen has won two limited NABC events: The 10K Swiss in 2016 and the 0–5000 Mini Spingold in 2009. He was second in those same events in 2014 and 2007.

A Platinum Life Master with over 18,000 masterpoints – 10,000 of them gold and 2100 platinum – Owen is a hardworking player who loves the game and still plays for fun at the club.

[3:24] Owen’s journey as a director, at the club and online.

[6:05] Bob Hamman in bracket two?!

[8:50] What do BBO directors do about cheating calls?

[11:33] Remember: The ACBL and BBO are not the same organization!

[16:40] Owen on changing his thinking when playing different systems.

[24:40] Winning the Round of 16 match in the US Open Team Trials in May of 2024.

[29:36] Owen has bridge-playing parents.

[35:33] Competing with dad.

[37:24] Joe Grue’s advice to a 15-year-old Owen (good for everyone!).

[46:25] Calling Zach Brescoll, Double Dummy alum.

[52:03] Asking other players – even pros – about problem hands.

[59:09] Leading the Blue Ribbon Pairs.

[1:05:42] Owen’s line in the big moment in Double Dummy.

[1:10:12] A memorable board in the Spingold.

The Setting Trick

Episode 81 Owen Lien;

John McAllister: Hi, I'm here today with Owen Lien. I first met Owen back in 2012 at the World Youth Team Championships, where he was playing with Kevin Dwyer on the USA1 under 26 team. He is now a professional Bridge player and director, and recently we both played in a speedball, which is a 12-board game on Bridge Base Online and Owen and his partner Drew Cavalier, am I saying that right? Had a massive score of 80.25 IMPs in 12 boards, which I had never seen something so high, and it was really that that made me want to interview you here for The Setting Trick, Owen. So congratulations on that. I'm sure it's going to be at the top of your resume and it's a pleasure to have you as my guest today.

Owen Lien: Thank you. Yeah, that game was insane. It wasn't even that we did anything spectacular, just our opponents kept falling over themselves. One of the hands, they were in six spades, cold for six and they went down four. So another hand, the guy jumped overcalls with four diamonds, he was four triple three.

John McAllister: Hadn't one of you opened a notrump too?

Owen Lien: Yeah, my partner had opened a notrump and I invited, the guy comes in with four diamonds with four triple three and I'm like, I double. You're going down.

John McAllister: How many diamonds did partner have?

Owen Lien: Three. Dummy came down with three and I had three and my partner had and opened a no trump, I'm like, wow, that's a lot of diamonds in dummy. How do you have so many?

John McAllister: Yeah, I actually saved, I took some screenshots, so I had played in the same event, and I think we got third and we had like 27 IMPs and you had 80. And so I actually saved some of the screenshots from our conversation because I was asking you about it and you said, "It was unbelievable," and you said it twice you said "It was unbelievable." So we'll include that in the show notes. So we're doing this conversation at 11:00 AM Eastern per your request. And I'm just wondering if you're playing, so today's Thursday, September 19th. Are you playing in the online NABC thing or whatever that is?

Owen Lien: No, I'm not. I just have to work at one, so I figured 11 o'clock would leave me a lot of time in between.

John McAllister: Got it. When you say work, is that bridge work?

Owen Lien: Yeah.

John McAllister: Directing. Do you do that? I know you do that on Bridge Base, are you doing that on the internet or in person somewhere?

Owen Lien: So before the pandemic, I directed regularly at my local club, but then the games got a lot smaller after the pandemic and I started directing online during the pandemic. And honestly, directing online is a lot more convenient. You don't have a commute, you don't have to clean up and you get to do it from the comfort of your own home. So I just continued with that. And I only direct on Bridge Base five days a week, when I'm home. If I'm off playing at a tournament, Bridge Base is great on this, I can take whatever time I need. They let me do it. Last month I played three regionals, I took all three weeks off of directing online. No problem.

John McAllister: And you're winning some of these. I looked up your record, you're winning some bracket one events.

Owen Lien: Yeah, well it helps when you have teammates like David Grainger, Billy Miller, Bobby Levin. It's a real treat getting to team up with people like that.

John McAllister: It seems like the field though, in these events, just looking at the regionals you played, I don't see a bunch of professional teams.

Owen Lien: So the last one we went to in Irvine, there were not so many professional teams, but the week before when we were in Santa Clara, there were a ton. Oh yeah.

John McAllister: Oh yeah.

Owen Lien: But of course you always have at least one or two strong local teams and trust me, they're no mincemeat a lot of the time. They're very capable of beating us.

John McAllister: I saw that you played in the Omaha regionals where Warren Buffett plays.

Owen Lien: No, he wasn't. I've been to that regional three times now and the only time that I saw him was the first time I went, which was in 2016. But the other two times have been post pandemic and he wasn't there. He used to go there and team up with Bill Gates. You'd walk in the room and be like, oh, there's $150 billion right there, which was kind of cool. But yeah, I haven't seen them in the last two years.

John McAllister: Who did Buffett partner when you saw him?

Owen Lien: Do you know, I don't remember. [inaudible 00:06:05] that's right. That's exactly what I was going to say. They had Hamman on the team the year I saw them and if I remember correctly, they were in bracket two. Yeah.

John McAllister: That's not possible.

Owen Lien: I'm pretty sure.

John McAllister: That's not possible.

Owen Lien: I'm going to look it up afterwards and find out.

John McAllister: Okay. So when you direct on BBO, do you direct the same games when you do this one o'clock deal?

Owen Lien: Yeah, I mean, so you're directing at large. So any game that BBO is running, the speedball, the 18 board games that take two hours, whatever, and we just have a screen where the director calls, like someone clicks to call the director, there's a little pop-up on a side window where these all pop up and we just click them to accept them. And any reason that the players provide is visible there in the director call. So when the director arrives at your table, they already know what reason you provided.

John McAllister: And are most of those somebody's [inaudible 00:07:16]?

Owen Lien: Yeah, I'd say a huge majority are east is missing, slow play, no convention card. And if people don't provide a reason, which is really not ideal, but 90% of those are players not playing or whatever, it's a real small minority of calls that are actual director calls. Otherwise it's just, okay, let's get a sub, move on.

John McAllister: How do you get the sub?

Owen Lien: It's super easy. Picture yourself on BBO at the table, you have the four names around the table. We can right click on the player that's not playing or isn't there and this gives us a whole menu. One of the options is find substitute and each time we click, it invites one person. So oftentimes we'll do that multiple times because that first person isn't always going to accept. We just want the first person that accepts and it invites people who have registered as subs, but it does so at random. So it's like the director doesn't know who's getting invited. So if you get a sub as your partner and you're not happy, don't be mad with the director.

John McAllister: What do you do when you get a call about cheating?

Owen Lien: Yes, so these are not uncommon. So we often review and it's not really up to the director to make that determination. BBO has its own ethics team to investigate these things and we have a very easy way of forwarding the hand to them with any comments that we want to add. And then at some point that pair does get investigated with an internal report and everything and BBO makes their own determination and yeah, I don't...

John McAllister: So is EDGAR used for that or is that a separate piece of the puzzle?

Owen Lien: I don't believe EDGAR is used for it. I think it's just an eyes on a human that does the investigation, writes a report and makes their own determination.

John McAllister: So if somebody says something to you, a player says something to you, about somebody they thought cheated, it will go to some sort of review by BBO.

Owen Lien: Yes. But like I said, it's all done internally. So you report an opponent because you think they're cheating, the director is going to forward the hand and that's the last you're going to hear of it.

John McAllister: And same for the director too, it's not like you're...

Owen Lien: And remember the wheels of justice grind slowly, so it's not going to happen overnight.

John McAllister: Yeah, that's one of my frustrations. I've filled out a fair amount of recorder forms from hands on BBO. I play a decent amount of speedballs, too many probably, and it would be nice... I think this EDGAR thing is great, I mean obviously it would be nice to know what happens with people that I file recorder forms because it's de-incentivizing the fact that if I fill out recorder forms, it goes into the ether. I don't really get any response. And I feel like if I did get some response that it would be absolutely... I mean I filled a recorder form out for Sharon Anderson and her husband who got prosecuted and that was cool. I mean it wasn't cool, but it was just like I couldn't believe that I was filling it out based on her resume. But the fact that they got caught was validating in a way.

Owen Lien: The only thing I would say is first of all, BBO does not share the results of their investigation with ACBL. Players are entitled to fill out an ACBL recorder form on the ACBL site for hands that occur on BBO because these are ACBL sanctioned games. But just know that the form you fill out on BBO, where you go “send abuse report,” that does not go to ACBL. So anything you report just to BBO, it's not going to show up, unless ACBL investigates them for whatever reason, they're not going to show up on the ACBL disciplinary list. You won't see them on any list. But I will say my personal experience playing on BBO is I find myself reporting a lot fewer pairs than I was say, four years ago. So it feels like the problem pairs are slowly going away.

John McAllister: So you know of people that have gotten banned from [inaudible 00:12:41]?

Owen Lien: Oh yeah. This guy that used to play at my local club got banned from BBO. Yeah.

John McAllister: Oh, really.

Owen Lien: I am not sure if he's allowed back on there or not. I don't think he's allowed to play in the ACBL games on there. And he suffered a suspension from the ACBL as well for his online cheating. That's what it was. So yeah, I definitely know people who were doing it online. It's sad. This guy was the director of my club, represented it. He immigrated here, but before moving here he had represented his country in international competition. So really it just shows you that it could be anyone.

John McAllister: Yeah. So one of the things I wanted to do before having you on was look up if that was, because that was the highest score, your 80.25 is the highest score that I had seen. I was personally curious, is that a record?

Owen Lien: It's a record for me for sure.

John McAllister: I reached out to BBO Support and Diana is the person who responded, she was very excited to hear that we were having you on the podcast. She is big supporter of yours. So they don't have a complete record, but they had it for two years. They had for 2022 and 2019 or something. And I think there were two people in 2022 that scored higher than you guys, but not in the other year.

Owen Lien: Okay. I mean, I've hit 50 before. That was a lot.

John McAllister: Yeah, I mean I was surprised that that wasn't a record.

Owen Lien: Yeah. I do some work with Diana so yeah, I definitely know who she is. I haven't met her in person yet. She was at the Toronto Nationals I heard, but I just missed her. But we both know David Sapper and he's pretty much the head director on BBO.

John McAllister: Oh really? I didn't know that.

Owen Lien: So we communicate a lot electronically. It's a good team over there at BBO. Yeah, it's nice working with.

John McAllister: Speaking of Toronto, you played with a Swedish guy. You've been playing with this guy Ulf Nilsson for some years. How did that come about?

Owen Lien: So Ulf had grown dissatisfied with his previous partner, and so he asked a friend of mine, Will Ellers from Florida, well, he's in New Jersey now, but at the time I think he was in Florida, if he would become his partner. Well, Will has a full-time job of his own, he's not really interested in being full-time Bridge pro, and he told Ulf he wasn't interested, but he said he should ask me because Will had been a captain of a junior team I was on in 2011 in Croatia and we had played some together. And so Ulf did end up asking me and we played our first national together in Las Vegas in 2019. Excuse me.

I love playing with him. He's a lot of fun. He's a little bit crazy in the system department. I've had to change my thinking on some things just because it's like he has us playing things that nobody else plays. We play a two of a major opener is like 11 to 14 with four in that major and a longer minor. I mean you don't see anyone at the nationals playing this. So I had to have him tell me, "Okay, so if you're making that bid, how do I need to be thinking about it so I can bid correctly myself? It's not something I'm used to playing." But it's one of my favorite bids. It comes up all the time. It puts the opponents under a lot of pressure. We find our fit quickly if we have one, and only once was it supposed to be a disaster and the opponents dropped two tricks on defense so I was down one, so it was like, okay, that's fine,

John McAllister: But were you doubled, I guess?

Owen Lien: I knew it was bad. I opened two spades. I had four spades and six clubs and it went pass and my partner bid three clubs pass or correct, and it went double on my right. I passed and went pass and my partner redoubled, I had two hearts and a stiff diamond and I'm like, oh no, I have to run from this. So I ran to three hearts.

John McAllister: Oh my God.

Owen Lien: And somehow survived for down one. I even had a good hand. I had ace, fourth of spades, ace, King, Jack, sixth of clubs. Yeah. It wasn't like I had some joke.

John McAllister: Well, what did he have?

Owen Lien: He had two spades and a stiff club. He was five-five in the red suits. Imagine how he felt having to bid three clubs pass or correct. But hey, look at it. He had only one, but I had six good ones. We were unlucky that they were actually five-one offside. They were able to double us.

John McAllister: Were you vul? You played the same thing vulnerable or not?

Owen Lien: This one was vulnerable, so it was looking really scary.

John McAllister: Oh my God. Yeah.

Owen Lien: Yeah. And previously when I had a partnership with Zach Brescoll, we played a relay precision system, which I always loved and that's basically what I played with Ulf. It's not the same one, it's a different version, but really precision is just a lot of fun to play. For those that don't know, a relay system is basically where one hand just makes artificial bids to ask about their partner's shape and strength and whatever, and then at the end they place the contract. So the opponent's only know about one opposing hand, if the person who ask all the questions becomes declared, it can be a real pain to defend against this kind of system because you know nothing of the declarer's hand.

John McAllister: What's your accident rate with that? With the precision or messing up the relay? I've never played a relay system.

Owen Lien: So I would say our accident rate is zero with the relays itself. There are two classes of relay systems. You can play like what I call step-based system, that's systems like Viking club or even the kind of system that Brad and Joe play. Or there's the other class which is called symmetric relay, which means with any given shape, say any five, four, three, two one, at some point you're going to bid three hearts. It's just the earlier bids you clarify what your suits are. We play a symmetric system, which makes it a lot easier. It's like, oh, I'm five, four, two, two. At some point I'm going to bid three diamonds. I just have to remember what the earlier bids mean. Our accident rate, well, it's Ulf's system so he doesn't mess it up. Our accident rate with other parts of the system is also very low now, but there were back-to-back nationals where I forgot that we were playing two-suited jump overcalls and both of them led to disaster.

And after the second, one of my teammates said, "Hey, Owen, and rather than taking 10 seconds after the jump overcall, why don't you take it before you make it and remember what you're playing?" I thought that was fair because one of them led to what a 19-IMP loss I think, and we lost that match by one. So that was really brutal. And that was playing guess them. They opened the spade or heart, sorry, they opened a heart and I just had a weak jump overcall in clubs. I bid three clubs, but that shows spades and diamonds. So yeah, be careful.

John McAllister: Was it a Swiss match?

Owen Lien: It was a Spingold match. Yeah.

John McAllister: Oh my god.

Owen Lien: We lost to Amoils by one. Yeah.

John McAllister: Wow. That's brutal.

Owen Lien: It was brutal. But I tell you what, since then I have never forgotten it. That was two years ago. So I feel a lot like, okay, I'm getting in the free and clear I can be-

John McAllister: Who was your client?

Owen Lien: Eric Leong. Yeah. He was not very happy with that result.

John McAllister: I haven't seen Eric at the Nationals recently is he still-

Owen Lien: He hasn't really been playing. I've seen him at a couple regionals out in California recently. He played with Carlos Pellegrini in Sacramento back in May, and then in Santa Clara just a couple of weeks ago, he was playing with my aforementioned partner from Sweden, Ulf. Other than that, I haven't seen him. Since Ulf and I now team up with other people, I don't know if it's just he can't kind of pair he is satisfied with teaming up with or what.

John McAllister: It's expensive hiring Bridge pros. I know that for a fact. I wonder if the match that you lost the Spingold on this 19 IMPer, that was the last...?

Owen Lien: No, we played the next national in Phoenix. Yeah. It was more our decision to explore other opportunities than his. He didn't fire us. He might've wanted to, but he didn't.

John McAllister: Yeah, man, that's tough.

Owen Lien: But he's an interesting fellow. He can be a great teammate, but he can also just be a real difficult one sometimes. Who's not a difficult teammate when your teammates have a disaster to lose a Spingold match by one, I wouldn't be happy.

John McAllister: You also won your round of 16 match in the team trials this last year.

Owen Lien: Oh yeah. Oh wow. Yeah, that was exhilarating. I was playing with Aaron Jones and at the other table we had Josh Donn, who was rotating with Arti Bhargava and Bill Bailey and we were up against, I forget the captain's name, but he was playing with Michael Kamil and they had-

John McAllister: Rob Robinson, I think.

Owen Lien: ... Steve Garner was playing with David Berkowitz and Finn Kolesnik with Ish Del’Monte. And it was a topsy-turvy match and swings all over the place. But after 120 boards, we came out ahead by one. Now the next match, please nobody look at the round of eight results. Don't go there. I think it's still a crime scene.

John McAllister: You lost to the eventual winner.

Owen Lien: Okay. Yeah.

John McAllister: Let's put it that way.

Owen Lien: Thank you. That makes us feel better. They won every match by a lot too, except maybe the finals, I don't remember, but I think every match leading to the finals they won by over a hundred.

John McAllister: Do you have any plans to go to Argentina for the World Championships?

Owen Lien: No. I'm not going. I'll actually be in North Carolina for a regional there, but also I'll be visiting family because that's where I'm originally from.

John McAllister: Where in North Carolina are you from originally?

Owen Lien: [inaudible 00:26:22] So yeah, it's really close to Charlotte. It's great, I get to go work and go a few days early to see my mom and sister there and then I'll stay a few days after and go visit my dad down in Augusta, Georgia. That'll be great. I would love to get to Buenos Aires, I've heard amazing things about the place.

John McAllister: There's not a ton of people that have signed up for the ancillary events. I looked the other day, there are only 12 pairs signed up for the open pairs, only three teams for the open teams.

Owen Lien: I mean it's at the edge of the Earth, it's a long way to go for anybody, unless you're from South America and even if you're from Columbia, it's still a six or seven hour flight. Yeah, South America's big.

John McAllister: Yeah, I'd like to go. I've never been to South America. I was supposed to go to Columbia with you on a team.

Owen Lien: Anyone who has not been to the South American Championships when they're in Columbia, you should definitely go. It was the best time. Yeah.

John McAllister: How was the bridge?

Owen Lien: It was overall solid because when it's in Columbia it's not far from the U.S. so I mean it's still not close, but a six-hour flight as opposed to going... New York to Columbia I think was like a six or seven hour flight. But New York to Buenos Aires is like a 12 or 13 hour flight, just to put it in perspective. So it's a lot closer. And everything is very affordable, the food was great, the hospitality was great and the Bridge was good.

So the best teams from South America and a couple of top teams coming from all over really. There were people there from Europe, from North America. It was a blast. And the schedule was really good too. You play all your Bridge basically from one until six and the rest of the day you do what you want. So it's like wake up, go have breakfast at the pool, go play Bridge, and then the drinking starts. But yeah, I mean definitely recommend it. I am planning to go back next time around, hopefully.

John McAllister: Will it be in Columbia next year?

Owen Lien: No, I don't think they're having it. So it's like they have the South American Open Championships I think are just every other year just sort of like they do in Europe so I don't think they have anything this coming year. But 2026...

John McAllister: And both your parents play Bridge. I've played against your dad at the [inaudible 00:29:40] Regional. And your mom plays also.

Owen Lien: Yeah, both my parents play. My mom doesn't play as extensively as she used to. You'll mostly just find her at the local club nowadays. But my dad still goes to tournaments, often you'll find him at the Nationals. I think he's going to be in Vegas this fall. I think my mom didn't really want me to learn Bridge when I was little because she wanted me to focus on studies. But my dad starting when I was seven, tried to get me interested in the game and I was just like, "Nope, nope. I am fine with my computer games. Thank you." He kept trying to find different avenues to get me interested. Finally, when I was nine, he's like, "Hey, guess what? You can stay up late if you learn." And back then games were 1:00 and 7:30, so staying up late really meant at night. When you're nine years old, that's like, cool.

I didn't find out until later that only meant on weekends when we were at Bridge tournaments, it didn't mean every day. Whatever. So that got my foot in the door and got me started playing and then a few years later I was going into high school. I could stay up late anyway. I wasn't really keen on the game. And then I was at a sectional in Columbia, South Carolina and someone said to me, "Hey, you see that other young guy over there? You should go talk to him. He just got back from an all-expense paid trip to represent the US and Junior Bridge in Brazil." And I've always loved to travel, and I was like, "All expense-paid. Does that mean free?" "Yeah, yeah." So I went over, I asked him, I said, "So what do I got to do to get on one of these teams?" And he said, "Get better."

It was John Hurd who's originally from Charleston, South Carolina. That's why he was there. But yeah, so that lit a fire and there was no looking back. Two years later, qualified for my first junior team, got to go to Bangkok. All my friends who had made fun of me because I was spending my weekends with old people, I got back and it was like, oh, teacher asked how was everyone's summer? "Oh yeah, I went to the Junior Bridge camp in Slovakia. Then I went to the Bridge Nationals in Chicago and then I went to the junior championships in Thailand." No one could top that.

John McAllister: Did you play the Nationals with your dad back then?

Owen Lien: No. My dad and I only ever played together at one National, and that was the last one that was in New York in '04. But since then I've just generally played with, when I was on the junior team, I've either been working or I was playing with my junior partner most of the time, but I still often play with friends. I do love the game. Yes, it's my job, but I really love it. I play twice a week at my club just for fun with my friends. I like to have a good time. When I'm playing on my time, I don't care about the results. I just want my partner to be nice and have fun. Gosh, I remember the last time I played with my dad, it's been five, six-ish years. We got in a one-session Swiss at the Gatlinburg Regional. It was not planned, it just happened. Yeah, he and I were right-

John McAllister: Did he ask you or did you ask him?

Owen Lien: The team I was on had gotten knocked out in the afternoon. We went back to the house that we were renting, cooked dinner, and we'd invited my dad to join us for dinner that day. And then I was like, "Hey, do you want to join our team for the one-session Swiss tonight?" And everyone thought, oh, that's a great idea. Okay, yeah, let's do it. So after we'd had a few drinks at dinner, we got a ride down to the game and we played. We had fun. Yeah. But he and I were regular partners from, I don't know, from when I was 10 until I was about 14 or something, 15? No, 15. Yeah, 15. He got me a long way in the game. He got me started, that's the biggest distance right there.

John McAllister: Yeah. I think I played against him in the top bracket of KO in Hilton Head, so he must be a pretty serious player.

Owen Lien: Yeah, I'm not sure what his rank is right now. Might be around 5,000 points, I'm not sure.

John McAllister: Was there a moment when you realized that you were better than he was? Were you competitive with him that way?

Owen Lien: Definitely. I mean, I think this is true for all pro-Bridge players. You just have to have that competitive drive to really do what it takes to get to that level. There's no other real motivation for it. But I'd say there's a moment where I realized I'd become better than him, but I can't say exactly when it was. I know that in my teens I had a lot of arrogance. In fact, the other guy that mentioned me a lot, Warren Roberts. He had a nickname for me, ALS for Arrogant Little Shit. So I'm sure that I thought I was better than my dad long before I actually was.

John McAllister: It is also probably not completely linear too. You're probably better at some things than your dad, but he was probably better at other things.

Owen Lien: Right. Because there's so many aspects to the game. You can ask a lot of partnerships, which one of you is the better player? And someone will say, oh, he's better at the bidding and she's better at the play or something like that, which is true. It's just true for almost all partnerships. And it's a good thing because if your partner's better than you at certain aspects of the game, you will learn from that and vice versa.

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got on how to improve is play with and against people who are better than you. Because even though, especially I know playing against people who are better than you is not necessarily pleasant for everyone, but I asked Joe Grue when I was 15, like, "Hey, what piece of advice do you have for me to improve my game?" He said, "Whatever tournament you're at, go and find the toughest possible event to enter. You'll get your butt handed to you for a while, but it's the best way to learn." And so that's what I did.

And he was exactly right. I had my ass kicked for a few years before I started figuring out... Because the big thing to realize isn't that the top players are necessarily playing better than you. It's that they're making fewer mistakes than you. They don't outplay you they just make fewer mistakes. Bridge is a game of mistakes. It's not a game you win. It's game you don't lose. Or it's a game that you lose by making mistakes, which when I realized that, it really changed my whole mindset about the game. Like, oh wow, I just need to start eliminating my errors. And then it's like, okay, which parts of my games are errors and which ones aren't?

John McAllister: So you spoke to John Hurd at this tournament and then you really got into it. What avenues did you have back then to help you?

Owen Lien: For the first couple years back then, the online platform that was most popular was OK Bridge. So I just went on there. I'd get home from school and I get on OK Bridge and basically play with random people for the next 10 hours. Just trial and error, trial and error. But I was just going to learn through sheer numbers because I didn't really have anyone to learn from. And then I played for a number of years with this guy from Hendersonville, North Carolina named Sam Frischner. He was a very nice guy. We were a good B level partnership. Anyway, he was friends with Warren Roberts. They knew each other through work and Warren was the best player in Western North Carolina at the time.

So Sam at some point felt like he had reached his limit. He wasn't going to continue improving at Bridge so for him, there was no more desire to continue playing. So he made that decision, but he told Warren, "Hey, you should take this kid under your wing. He's going to be something great." So Warren did take me under his wing and took me to a lot of tournaments. He paid for everything. It was truly generous. He gave me his knowledge, his time. And when I didn't play well, he let me know. But I'd say I learned more from him than anyone else.

And he was quite a character. We could go to a tournament and play against say a bunch of Polish experts, Polish pros. And if we could something to get them yelling at each other in Polish, it actually wouldn't matter to him if we ended up winning that match or not. He just loved seeing them go “rawr rawr rawr!”. That would just make his whole day. And yeah, I remember for the first few years we played, we played precision and I was overbidding like a maniac. And at some point he is like, "Oh, and we got to stop playing precision because when you don't open a club, you feel like you have carte blanche to bid on whatever because you've limited your hand and yet you still don't have your bids."

So he is like, "We're going to play a system with no conventions whatsoever so that you learn to have your bids because if you don't, you're going to get punished." And so he made me play Acol, four card majors, weak, no trump. The only convention we played over one no trump was two clubs of Stayman. No transfers, no forcing Stayman. Yeah.

John McAllister: Wow.

Owen Lien: I think we played Jacoby two no, just so we'd have a forcing major suit raise.

John McAllister: Yeah, you played two over one did you? Two over one.

Owen Lien: No, two over one could be like a seven count.

John McAllister: Oh yeah.

Owen Lien: Yeah. And the first day we played that we entered an AX Swiss with the likes of Larry Cohen playing with Berkowitz; the Polish pros. It was a strong field and we tied for first playing nothing. It was like, oh, maybe there is something to this. And as crazy as the system might be, it might not be theoretically the best, but it's a lot of fun to play because you get to bid a lot and you end up in a lot of interesting contracts. So it's like, oh, I got to figure out how to play this one.

John McAllister: Do you remember who your teammates were for that?

Owen Lien: One of their names is on the tip of my tongue. Gosh, no, this was 16 years ago. So I could tell you in a second if I saw their faces.

John McAllister: Is this guy still alive that?

Owen Lien: No, he passed away in, I think it was 2018. He had pulmonary fibrosis and he had a double lung transplant actually right before I met him. And it's pretty remarkable how long he lived given that because he was told it was like 50/50 that he'd live five years and he lived 11. So yeah, he passed away, I think it was 2018. It was either 2017 or 2018. It was 2018 for sure.

Our relationship was one where it was like if we thought the other person was wrong, we would let them know. So it could be difficult at times, but every now and again, there'll be some hand where it's like, oh, Warren would've loved to hear about this hand. And I have the thought of like, oh, I'll call him. And it's like, oh wait, I can't. And none of his family plays Bridge, so it's not like I can... I do still have regular contact with his family. They are a part of my life. I also went and worked for the guy for a number of years as a real estate appraiser. I was there for four and a half years I think.

John McAllister: Is that Brescoll, is that the person you used to work for for that?

Owen Lien: Yes. That's right. It was great. I would've been there longer except I ended up moving to Michigan because I'd met a girl. And now I've been in Michigan for, oh shoot, wow, in six more days it'll have been exactly nine years since I moved here. Yeah.

John McAllister: Wow, wow. Yeah, so Zach Brescoll he was in Double Dummy. He's a good friend of yours and unfortunately out of touch. So maybe he'll listen to this podcast and hear from him.

Owen Lien: I mean, he's a very private person, but I do chat with him once in a while. Yeah.

John McAllister: Oh, you do? God, he'll probably hate that I'm saying-

Owen Lien: No. He and I have even discussed the possibility of playing live Bridge together.

John McAllister: That'd be good.

Owen Lien: But it hasn't happened yet. I hope it does. He and I had a tremendous partnership. I love playing with the guy. He's a phenomenal player. And we came up with a whole system that we played together, which was a lot of fun. But he stepped away from Bridge and we haven't seen him since.

John McAllister: Besides your professional engagement with Bridge, both playing and directing, and you said you played for fun at the local club. Do you talk to other Bridge players about Bridge in Michigan? Are you asking other people about hands that you played?

Owen Lien: Yeah, I regularly do, especially hands that I find problematic. There was a hand in a little eight board online challenge match yesterday where we had to get to five clubs instead of three no, and I was looking at it, I didn't really think there was any reasonable way to do that, but shoot, I don't know everything. So of course all of my friends, asked them, "Do you think there's a reasonable way to get five clubs instead of three no in this hand?" And none of us could really think of a reasonable option that wasn't just some concocted thing.

Because discussing hands with other players, that's how you can improve. You can look at a hand all you want yourself, and you might just be overlooking something that's really simple or maybe not simple, but that might be there and getting someone else's eyes on it, they might see it and be able to share that with you.

John McAllister: Was this playing with a robot partner or a human partner?

Owen Lien: Robot, so that makes it even harder. But when I told my friends about it, I did not tell them they were playing with a robot because I so rarely play with robots that it's like, I only want to discuss a practical action that you and I could have, not that I could have with the robot.

John McAllister: How many people did you ask about this deal?

Owen Lien: I asked three and when all of them said, it's just so normal to get to three no, and that they didn't see any way. I was like, these are three people that I respect very much. And so I thought, okay, I won't ask anymore. Because they opened a diamond on my right and I had a balanced 19 count with King, third of diamonds, King, Jack, club. My majors were King, fourth of spades and Ace, King, Queen, fourth of hearts. So they opened a diamond, I was too strong to overcall a notrump. So I doubled. I parted with two clubs. And I had bid two no, didn't love it with King empty third of diamonds, but whatever. I bid two no and my partner had Ace Doubleton, Jack Doubleton, two low and Queen seventh. So it's like just a normal raise to three no. But my original thing was, well, maybe I could have cubed two diamonds over two clubs because really if my partner's like the Queen of Diamonds, I'd rather play no trump from my partner's side a lot of the time.

But how am I going to feel if my partner, if it's three clubs over that, I mean I not going to love it, I only have two clubs. But no one could come up with an auction where we would get to five clubs rather three no. If I cuebid two diamonds, my partner would probably just cuebid three diamonds. "Hey, I've got a good hand, but no good bid." "Okay, I'll bid three no over that." But yeah, I mean no one can learn the game all on their own. It is something you learn together. So at the end of the day, discuss the hands with your friends, with your partner. Don't be afraid to go ask the better players at your club, what you should have done on a hand that you think you should have done better on.

Sometimes you'll be surprised and you'll find out that you did the normal thing, it might not have worked, but hey, and other times you'll learn something. Almost all the top players that I know... When I was learning, I don't know, I just would go up to Rodwell or anyone really and be like, "Hey, may I have a moment of your time to ask about a hand?" And I don't think anyone ever said no, actually, or if they did it's because they were busy. It wasn't because they didn't want to help me. So yeah, end of the game at your club there's a hand you want to ask someone about, go ask the best player in the room.

John McAllister: Yeah, it's flattering too when you get asked. I was at my local club recently and this guy in the bathroom was like, "How many hands do you think you mess up during a session?" And I was like, "Oh man, probably more than I would care to admit." And it just showed me that he had... I didn't really know that... It was cool that he was trying to get better. I think that's one of the things for me when I play with somebody, it's really hard to play with somebody who doesn't know what they're doing, but they don't have a curiosity about it. They're not interested in improving. As long as somebody has a curiosity about how they could improve, then I am so happy to talk to that person and possibly play with that person. But going with somebody that's not curious, just like it's a non-starter.

Owen Lien: Same here. I will play with the most novice person at the club if they just show an interest and improve. Because yeah, I think it's an excellent point, I hear a lot of people are afraid to go up to who they view as a top player to ask questions, and it's like, no, actually you're giving them a compliment by asking.

John McAllister: I'm going to ask you the same question I asked Gavin Wolpert. I've got this group of friends who want to learn and we're getting together tonight. Two of them I know through golf, one's just a friend. One of them has played Bridge before but doesn't remember it really. The other one, I have no idea. And then the third one basically doesn't know cards, I mean has not really played any trick games. So what would be your be your format for this trio?

Owen Lien: That last person you mentioned is probably the biggest challenge because it's like if you've not played a trick-taking game before Bridge is probably not a starting point. I know that before I started learning to play Bridge, I played a lot of Spades. I might start there. I mean you might start by explaining the concept of Bridge, how any suit can be trumps, and then you have no trump. Then just so they grasp the idea of trick-taking game, maybe play some Spades.

I know you won't have a dummy, but that's not critical. And you can also play, I've heard it called Chat Bridge before, where it's like, well, it's exactly what you would think it is. It's like you sit there like you're playing Bridge, but you discuss things, show each other your cards while you're going through, because it's a learning process. It's not like these people know how to play. The guy is there and it's his turn to bid and he has no clue what to do. What else is he supposed to do? Show his hand. And now all three of them could learn as you try to explain, okay, well you would want to do this because of this.

If you're trying to start with Bridge, I would definitely go that route. I would not go into the rules at all for the start. You go into the rules of Bridge it's a non-starter for so many people just because they're convoluted. You might even just not bother with bidding at first, right? You just set a contract or something and maybe that's the way to go. If you have a hand generator, just generate some hands, look at the boards in advance and be like, I guess you need a dealing machine for this to work, but then you could be like, okay, on this one, the contract's going to be this.

John McAllister: You think I should just not even bother. You think I should cancel?

Owen Lien: No, don't cancel. God. But that's why I thought Spades would be good because in Spades you have two partnerships. You can have some bidding and it'll help your friend grasp the idea of trick- taking game, trumps, partnership.

John McAllister: Is there a lot of Euchre out there in Michigan?

Owen Lien: I don't know. I mean, I'm sure there is, but I've never played it.

John McAllister: Okay, it's a terrible game. I'm going to piss some people off. It's like a five-card trick game. It's terrible.

Owen Lien: Oh, I've played it once or twice. But for me, I don't know. Bridge is like the game. All other card games for sure are just not as interesting to me. I mean, there are some, Barbu is a lot of fun, but most card games to me if I play them, I just view it as I'm just kind of throwing cards and I'm doing it because I enjoy the company of the people I'm with. Bridge is such a stimulating game that no other game really compares.

John McAllister: All right, how about that? I agree. I mean, it's an amazing game. It's one of my favorite things to do. That's why I put all these [inaudible 00:59:34].

Owen Lien: Same here. It's like late at night I randomly get on like, oh, who's on? Let's see who I can ask.

John McAllister: We were actually teammates once in the Reisinger.

Owen Lien: Yes, I remember that in Denver.

John McAllister: Yeah, you and Zach were hot coming in, you guys finished third.

Owen Lien: That was such a burn to not win that. We took the lead in that event in the first semi-final session, and we had the lead even with two rounds to go in the final session. We started the final session with, I think I went and calculated it, I think our lead was board and a half, which is just a huge lead. And we had our first average session of the event and the two pairs that overtook us had 65% or better. And as you can figure out by the fact that they only overtook us at the very end, it was still close. If they just had 62%, we would've won. 65% in the Blue Ribbon Pairs is unbelievable. So yeah, I was very disappointed. I mean, don't get me wrong, I was very happy, third is a great result, but it took me a while to realize that I was happy with that.

John McAllister: Did you think you'd won when it was over?

Owen Lien: No, it didn't feel. We'd had our worst session of the event. We knew it. And even so it's still average.

John McAllister: Not terrible.

Owen Lien: Yeah. I remember in that event I did something. I've only ever done it once, but it was a trick I pulled out of Zia's book Bridge My Way. He talks about, I think they're called Tiger Doubles. Not stripe-tailed ape. This is where you try to throw the opponents off with a psychic leap directing double or something. So I remember vividly I had Queen, Jack, Doubleton, two low, four low, five low. I might've had a Jack and a minor.

But anyway, they opened a heart on my right and would pass a spade, pass two spades, pass two no, which was asking pass the three spades, four in a max, pass four no key card, pass five hearts. And now I was thinking, well, I don't want my partner to lead either minor, I have nothing there, but maybe I can throw them off by making them think the hearts are really off sides. And they've clearly established spades as their fit, and they're very unlikely to now stop off and play a five hearts doubled, especially if they think I have five good hearts. So I doubled and now the guy on my left had two low hearts. He knew they had all the key cards except the Queen of Spades. But now he thought, oh, I have a heart loser and I have to worry about the Queen of Spades.

So he signs off in five spades. So he gets a heart lead, and it was a dream. He had ace, Queen of Hearts, so he didn't finesse. He went up with the ace and now figuring that I had all the hearts, he had King, 10, nine, fifth of spades, opposite Ace fourth or something. So he played low, and when he saw an honor come from my hand, he won the King and finessed into me because he figured I was shorter in spades, and then I let a heart back to my partner's King making five, for an around the world top. It's only time I've done it and it worked so well I'm just afraid to ever do it again. Because it's like, wow, that was fun.

John McAllister: Did you tell Zia about it?

Owen Lien: I think I did a couple of years ago. I was like, I did it once, but my hand was so perfect for it. Because it's like so often you have a hand where it's like, well, I could do this. But then you have something like a Queen and a minor where it's like if you have the Queen and a minor, you don't mind if your partner leads away from something there, you might produce something. Here I had nothing in the minors. It was like, okay, let's try this out.

John McAllister: What was the expression on the... How did the person react when you won your spade and now played a heart?

Owen Lien: A low heart back. Yeah. Oh, oh my God. I think he went something like "What just happened?" That's one of my-

John McAllister: What session was it in?

Owen Lien: It was in one of the semi-final sessions.

John McAllister: So no screens probably.

Owen Lien: No.

John McAllister: I don't think there's screens in the semis.

Owen Lien: I don't think there were at the time. The cameras were set up because I remember the camera being there, but there were no screens. But I do remember, I think it was in the second semi-final session, because we were north-south. You'd have to go find the hand. I would've been sitting north.

John McAllister: So there's a part of Double Dummy, like the climax of Double Dummy is the US team coming back in the final quarter against Israel to win the semi-final match.

Owen Lien: Oh yeah.

John McAllister: You know what I'm talking about? So they've had this huge set and Zach and Adam Grossack are coming out to compare with Adam Kaplan and Zach Brescoll, and they come out of the door and you say something.

Owen Lien: I said, "What'd you do on the last board?"

John McAllister: "What'd you do on the last board?" Exactly. Zach brushes you off, he's like, [inaudible 01:06:29]. So anybody's just listening to this, they can see Owen in that climactic scene of Double Dummy. That was the most amazing thing, man. Just having a film crew there and having them come back in that match. What a... That was...

Owen Lien: They have that memory forever in on record.

John McAllister: Yeah, indeed. You played with Kevin Dwyer that tournament. I looked you guys up, you guys had a great butler.

Owen Lien: He and I had a very good partnership together for about seven years. Oh, more, seven or eight years. Yeah.

John McAllister: Oh yeah. We played together actually again, we teamed up with you, Migry and I teamed up with you guys-

Owen Lien: Oh, that's right.

John McAllister: ... in Providence for a few tournaments.

Owen Lien: That's right.

John McAllister: Yeah, we did pretty well. We were in the top 20.

Owen Lien: And then we went and won a knock-out I remember that, yeah.

John McAllister: Did we? Did Play the Reisinger together also?

Owen Lien: Yeah, I think so.

John McAllister: We didn't qualify for day two of the Reisinger, I remember that.

Owen Lien: Still something I've never achieved.

John McAllister: No, not even day two.

Owen Lien: I've only entered the Reisinger or two or three times because so often my team wants to play the Swiss. It's an easier format. The Reisinger it's an amazing event, it's brutal. I remember the first time I played in it was on a team with you just round after round, world champion after world champion after world silver medalist, after... Everyone was just there and they were going to bash your head in. And match point or board of match, match point is on a one top. It is just so brutal.

John McAllister: It's a great tournament.

Owen Lien: Yeah, but it's definitely a different version of Bridge.

John McAllister: Are you playing Reisinger this year do you know?

Owen Lien: No, playing Swiss. Not teaming up with Dan this fall, no. We're teaming up with Sam Dinkin, Jacob Freeman, Louk Verhees and Jason Feldman.

John McAllister: Who's playing with Sam? Jacob Freeman?

Owen Lien: We had a great time teaming up with Zagorin and it was a lot of fun. I love both Peter and Dan. They're fun guys. And our last match in the Spingold, we lost the round of 16 to Zimmermann. We kind of dug ourselves a hole in the third quarter. We were stuck 43 or 44 with a set to go and with five boards to do we were only down 10. We almost did it.

There was a board, I made a play that I'll probably never make again. So I opened a gambling three no, I had Ace, King, Queen, 10, seventh of diamonds and all pass, and they lead King of Hearts, I think. And Dummy had two aces and a stiff diamond and I'm just sitting here thinking about the state of the match, I'm just like, oh. And Brink is on my right, such a great guy. Of course, I thought for a long time at trick one before I made the play. As soon as I put the 10 of diamonds on the table, he didn't make me wait for the satisfaction. He put the other three, including the Jack on the table.

John McAllister: You mean he was in front of you?

Owen Lien: He was in front. And as soon as I hooked, he showed me the rest of them. Like well done. Yeah.

John McAllister: Oh wow. That's cool.

Owen Lien: It was like, oh... And then I got annoyed because I looked at the VuGraph record later on and the VuGraph operator just had me playing low to the ace and then claiming it. Well, I contacted BBO. I'm like, "Can you get this fixed?" And they got it fixed so that made me happy. But it's like Brink was such a great sportsman when I made that play, he even pumped his fist and said, "This is what Bridge is about." Yeah.

John McAllister: Wow. That's cool.

Owen Lien: And I figured at the time if things were going well, we were still down 25 or 30 and there was this board and only five more against one of the best teams in the world. It just felt like this is not a team that was going to be giving up. So I thought, okay, I know it's a big position, but I feel like if diamonds are three, two, we're just not meant to win this match. So I went to the big play and boom.

John McAllister: Steve Landon talked about doing that once. He had opened a gambling three no and I played against him in a regional, and he talked about how he did that once and it was right.

Owen Lien: Amazing. I can't imagine ever making that play again, honestly. Because really if you're making that play, it means you're in a bad position. I don't want to put myself in a bad position in the future.

John McAllister: Yeah. That's like going back to John Hurd, he actually texted me while we were having this conversation because I'd asked him to be on the show.

Owen Lien: Oh, that's funny.

John McAllister: You were talking about him and he had texted me a little bit before he said it, but there was a hand I remember playing against him, and I had a Queen guess and I played his partner for it. Now he gives me the slow roll and I'm like, we don't slow roll Queens.

Owen Lien: It reminds me of this and, I was playing at a sectional and we get to seven no where Dummy had shown a solid suit and they didn't lead the suit. So Dummy actually had ace, King, Jack, ten eighth. I thought they had shown the Queen, they didn't have it. And I thought kind of weird that this person over here didn't make the safe lead. So I won the lead all in low to the Jack and trick two, and the guy on my right said "Jack?" And then he played low. I knew he was not happy that I'd made this play and it was Queen third. My opponent should have made the lead anyway of that suit because Dummy had shown a solid suit.

John McAllister: Right.

Owen Lien: Because it's not safe.

John McAllister: I wanted to ask you something else. I can't remember what it now shoot. God, yeah, now I'm fresh out.

Owen Lien: Okay.

John McAllister: All right, man.

Owen Lien: This is a lot of fun. Thank you for inviting me.

John McAllister: Yeah, man. Cool. Yeah, it was an easy ask.

Owen Lien: And if you remember the question, I can pop back on and we can do it.

John McAllister: All right. Sounds good man. Good to see you. I'll be in touch when we got this thing coming out and you can take a look at it.

Owen Lien: Yeah, please do.