Ep. 109: Tim Verbeek on 28 Years of Bridge, Catching Cheaters, and Learning to Lose

Lero: Sometimes you have that tournament that everything goes y your way and at the end you win and you're like, how's it possible? Anyway, long story short, if we beat that game we would c we would have qualified for the knockouts. And I cried. I don't think I cried in front of you. It was still pretty strange because this guy had a impeccable reputation in the Netherlands. He was also above 60, there was no reason for him to start cheating for whatever reason. He was always a decent player, but nothing more than that. And for some reason he started doing it. If somebody thinks you're cheating, because you did something really well or extraordinary. You probably got a great result. How did you get to be chairman? Nobody else wanted to be chairman. That's ⁓ long story short, but that's basically it. If you want to make it a safe bet, I would say the Dutch will become world champion again in the next ten years. I think that's a safe bet. Okay. After a break, ⁓ I have I had surgery a month ago and so I haven't recorded any podcast episodes. and ⁓ finally today I have my friend, my longtime friend, ⁓ our first Dutch guest on the setting trick. Am I the first Dutch guest? Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ I I forgot bit Well Selena Selena lives in Holland or d sorry, Netherlands now. Yes. She wasn't living there when ⁓ and she's not Dutch, I don't think. No, she's not Dutch, but she is together with a Tim. That's right. And ⁓ funny enough, ⁓ he was on my team at the last nationals and I accidentally included you in the group text instead of that Tim. Yeah, that's that's the problem. The problem with two teams from the same country. This is this is yeah, this is how it goes. It's it's horrible. And for me the the the the the the worst part is that it used to be I was Tim and he was like PAF. Like yeah, we had to have ⁓ a nickname. But but now it becomes he's now become getting so successful with winning the when he won the winter games, ⁓ he became won the championship. So And he became Dutch champion. He wins everything the other team. So now now I'm becoming the second team. Like you have Tim and you have that other guy. All right. So what you were saying, there's two Dutch Tims who play, you know, high level bridge, and you're saying that Tim van de Beaard is is is tak is stealing your name. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. I that's the feeling I have. I'm I'm becoming the second team. It's ⁓ it's painful. But you've won you won You won the European Championship. ⁓ the transnational championship, which is ar I mean, I think that's a better one to win than the winter games. I mean, granted it was some years ago. True, true. You've won the championship, haven't you? I I'm still doing okay. But the thing is, ⁓ the t the other team is only twenty five and already f winning d things like this. I was thirty. No, I ⁓ I I know when people have are are more talented. And ⁓ Tim and Oscar are definitely more talented. And ⁓ but I think that's that's very good for Dutch Bridge, and that is also one of our ⁓ our main successes that that like every five to ten years ⁓ a new star is rising. So like we have now ⁓ Tim van der Paar and Oscar Nijse who are doing very well. I hope when I pronounce the names that other people are know what's ⁓ about whom I'm talking because I don't know how you pronounce Nyson in ⁓ in English. Is it Nissan or what how what what what do you make of it? Well ⁓ so so these two fellows ⁓ were my teammates at the recent ⁓ spring NABC and I would I was mispronouncing Oscar Nissen's last name up until he became my teammate and then ⁓ he taught me how to pronounce well I asked him. So ⁓ but the way you said Tim van de Pavard ⁓ was like definitely I I hadn't heard his last name said like that before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓ v von de Pavart. Von de Pavert. Yeah. ⁓ but we we his nickname is Pav. This just go on path. He he will be okay with it. Maybe not when we are streaming this, but he he usually is okay with it. He's a cool guy, Pav. Yes. They both are. Very nice guys. Very good players. Good mentality. And ⁓ but like we have them, and they are around twenty five, but already you have also kind of the next pair. ⁓ do you know Ronald Gore? I guess you know him as Gore and Xavier Friesen. Is that ⁓ is Gore dating one of the of ⁓ Simon DeVice's daughters? Yeah. Yes, he's dating Sarah DeVice. Yeah, I I know him. And they are they are like the the the next ⁓ nice couple. And then you have of course the the De Weiss sisters. You mentioned them. And well they will for sure be one of the best women pairs in two or three years. And maybe able to to also to reach the the the open team. ⁓ and that is over three pairs that are coming, and then we still have ⁓ also Bauk and Simon still there. And ⁓ Behrendt van der Bos en Joris van Langveld. And we have Guy Mendes de Leon with Luc Dijsen. So we have and and then I'm for of course forgetting Bob Drive and Ricco van Proje. We have like we have a big selection. And then of course ⁓ probably Bas Drive and Shuert Brink are coming back to the Netherlands. So ⁓ If you have to bet about who will become the if you want to make a s a safe bet, I would say the Dutch will become world champion again in the next ten years. I think that's a safe bet. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not as safe as saying the United States will become world champion in the next ten years. But ⁓ it's ⁓ it's close. What did you think about the American team that won the ⁓ Bermuda Ball this past year? ⁓ they are fant fantastic. I I really like the guys. So I ⁓ I I think it's it's it's wonderful. ⁓ but they were also not unlucky. ⁓ like in the knockout phase. I think they first had England, then Belgium, and Denmark in the final. That that that this is a dream scenario. ⁓ if you get that view. Like, yeah, Italy lost to Belgium and then Sweden lost to Denmark. That were two major upsets. And it's always nice if you have upsets in your ⁓ in your But still it's it still becoming world champion is just a w wonderful achievement. So I don't want to to downgrade the achievement, ⁓ or how do you say it? Yeah. So no, that's ⁓ fantastic. That's a way of saying it. That's a good way of saying it. So we we've known each other for a long time. Yeah. Yeah, I what I what I also already ⁓ t ⁓ told you that I I d one of the most nice experiences I had with you was ⁓ Lyon in what was it 2017? Yeah. Twenty twenty seventeen, as you Americans will say. So so yeah, it was not for you the most one was the most best experiences because you were just knocked out of the ⁓ of the transnationals. And you John, I still I I I I every time you lose and you feel bad about it, you you are you're like the the most Yeah, I don't know if depressed is the right thing, but but I'll I always like, ⁓ John. Yes, British is a cruel game, and if I see you, it's British feels very cruel. So you were walking around blaming yourself for some mistake you made. And then we were sitting there at dinner and we said, Hey John, come on, join us. And I still I I I liked it. Also the the time we went to some some bar in was it Memphis? I I don't know. I I f I forget all those things and they get blurred in my head. Like, ⁓ it's that city or that or whatever. So yeah. It's ⁓ it's a but we never teamed up for some reason. I know. I know. I guess I guess that's pet is false. That's because you've got a you've got an American sponsor. You've been playing with her for probably ⁓ more than ten years. I know you won an event with her in twenty seventeen, so you've been playing with her at least that long. Yes, yes, yes. Since the trans since ⁓ we won the the Open Europeans in two thousand fifteen, we are ⁓ on our team. And that was actually ⁓ a a nice story because who I have to thank for playing on our team. Do you know that? What is a horrible bridge player? Think about a very horrible bridge player. ⁓ I don't know. No, it's very safe, very safe to say that because anybody moved me. ⁓ Lotan Fisher. So basically, what happened was that ⁓ Jimmy had a team with Lotan on it. And and they ⁓ and it was more like Patty also wanted to join the the the the the nationals and ⁓ Jimmy said to Lotham arrange a team so he arranged a team with ⁓ an Israelian pair and ⁓ actually Bob Driver and Bart Knob ⁓ that was the idea, but Bart Knop and Bob Driver still had an arrangement for the summer. That was Chicago. And ⁓ so he needed ⁓ fill wins. So, well, since we won the ⁓ Open Europeans with Bob and Bart, they said, ⁓ yeah, Danny and Tim, can you join for one tournament? So that that was arranged, so we go to the national and on day Two or three. Patti asked us, ⁓ do you have something for the next national? Therefore. Nobody said, well, please keep ⁓ keep it ⁓ open on your agenda. And we were like, yeah, but we are the fill-ins. What's going on? But yeah, nobody told Petty what was actually the team and what was going on. And the Israeli pair, well, they were not very ⁓ polite. So Patti was very sure she said, Okay, I want those Dutch guys and I don't know about that Israeli pair, but they will never play on my team again. And since then we we were the team. So that's ⁓ that that that's what that's what the Israelis are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I if you can look up and you will know. And they are ⁓ but ⁓ I I don't want to ⁓ as you say, I asked you about a very horrible price payer and you didn't name a name, so I will not name them. ⁓ yeah that must that was a big win. Yeah, that's that's surely what's. But that is that's how sometimes bridge tournaments go. Sometimes you have that tournament that everything goes your way, and and at the end you win and you're like, how's possible? And even the thing was we played against Lotan Fischer in the quarterfinals there. And we we won. And it was also interesting because Bart and Bob played them and they were sure something was was not okay. And then The Barton Bob Yeah, we want to do everything with the screen. And you can handle the the tray. And ⁓ Fisher Schwarz are like, Yes, of course, no problem, no problem. And Bob said ⁓ that that he watched in he watched in hindsight some footage and he said, Yeah, but we They were doing it right in our face. We actually won that match because of the team. Because one board, one guy led Queen Queen X. into his partner's eighth fourth. So there was a Queen King Jack decision that was ⁓ that was away. And we think that the guy with the Aether Spades taught his partner to lead spades. And unfortunately his partner had the wrong holding so he led wrong. Shit shit happens. Shit happens. I really hope I really hope I really hope if not for no other reason than just this story that this is like a that the that the that the audio that the lag in the video isn't gonna kill this episode because that's a great story. ⁓ otherwise we do this again. And then ⁓ I will try to ⁓ to get my connection ⁓ perfect. So let's go back to Leon. Yeah. So what happened was ⁓ they at that time we were playing in the transnational world championships, which start ⁓ at the end of the qualifying for the Bermuda Bowl. When the round robinhood for the Bermuda Ball is over, they have a transnational world championships. And ⁓ I think there was like a hundred and twenty teams and you were playing in it as well, I believe. And ⁓ And we ⁓ we my my team was in the only the top eight qualified for knockout matches. And my team was in ⁓ second place going into the last round. And ⁓ we we got knocked out. We we f ended up finishing tenth in the event, which was a great result for me. ⁓ and but ⁓ we missed the top eight and I missed defended on one ⁓ deal. ⁓ I had to like rise with ⁓ what happened was the Polish player. ⁓ I wasn't used to playing against ⁓ Poles and they and they made a ⁓ they doubled and then they bid three hearts. And ⁓ n the way the way that I was schooled was that was like non forcing. And so now it went four hearts and ⁓ basically the guy played the declara played a diamond up. I we we had bid and raised spades, my partner and I. So I needed a rise with a diamond to play another spade in order to beat the contract. But I was just sort of in the kind of this ⁓ this ⁓ you know, ⁓ what what sh what do I say? ⁓ this kind of state of like, well they they made this stupid bid, you know, my hand the hand on my right is is limited. I didn't realize they had a forcing hand and so I just thought we were gonna beat it anyway. Anyway Long story short, ⁓ if we beat that game we would qu would have qualified for the knockouts. And ⁓ I cried. I don't think I cried in front of you, but ⁓ after the you know, just missing out on it that closely, I cried and ⁓ I was y it's not like I didn't run into you right outside the playing area. No, no, no. You guys were at some restaurant that was fairly fairly ⁓ distant from the ⁓ playing site and ⁓ and I was just out walking, you know, kind of walking it off and thinking and, you know, being sad. I called my mom, which I normally don't do after a bridge ⁓ tournament. But I called my I did call my mom and ⁓ I don't remember what she said. but then there you guys were, you and your team and ⁓ you invited me to join you and ⁓ and it was it end it was a really nice ⁓ kind of ⁓ you know break from like ⁓ what I what what I was going through. ⁓ so yeah, that's a fond memory for me as well. I mean it was it was cool, you know, like finishing tenth in the world chan in a world championship ⁓ was was a great result is a great result for me. It is. Yeah. It's just a I have ⁓ so far my transnationals results are yeah. I think I never In the Transnationals I maybe reached the knockout stage once. Veldhoven, maybe tw ⁓ twenty eleven. So I'm even not sure. If I got there I was knocked out easily. Was it that was the tournament ⁓ Fisher won for some reason. ⁓ Yeah. When so he got kicked out, ⁓ he got caught it was like the Europeans probably after Yeah twenty sixteen. Twenty sixteen. ⁓ I think twenty sixteen. ⁓ Yeah yeah. Okay for me it's it's a guy, he he's around my age. So I played in the junior in the schools, juniors, ⁓ open. I I played them ⁓ quite often. ⁓ so for me it's it's it's it's someone of my my generation. It's actually interesting. I I know Lindsay Weinger, ⁓ if I pronounce her name correctly, ⁓ she asked me in 2014 about the allegations of cheating to ⁓ that were on Ron Schwarz and Lotan Fischer. And back then I was I was not sure. I didn't know they were cheating. I heard the rumors, but I had no clue how the cheating works. The only thing was when I played them actually there in the first round, and Ron. ⁓ completely misdefended the hand. Basically he had a king and if he didn't cash his king he would always get it if I had ⁓ if I still had a second card in that suit. He tried to cash it I could rough it and now I made my contract. And that was strange because it was a it it was a it was a horrible mistake. It was like a mistake that that you and I would not make And this and the thing is, and I learned that afterwards, is that results of a pair usually match their ⁓ how often they make a mistake. ⁓ so if you play against people who sometimes make horrible mistakes, it's not logical for them to win a lot of events. They they might win some event somewhere. but they will not win all the time. And it's for me it was really an eye opener. Since since then I have caught some cheating pairs. ⁓ for example, we had ⁓ ⁓ during ⁓ of course during ⁓ COVID that's a lot of people playing online and again sometime I played against two people ⁓ I know from the bridge Dutch British ⁓ circuit and I played them and wow I played the match and I was like they always know what what what the other has. Just a feeling. Now what did I do? That was just a feeling then I looked up like 100 hands of them online And they had never an misunderstanding on high-level decisions. But they were not a top pair, they were just ⁓ okay-ish. So the the the cut was not very interested in persecute okay. This is too difficult English word for me. Persicu Thank you. That th that that's what you have to help me. It's more than three syllables, then ⁓ it's hard for me to pronounce. ⁓ and then ⁓ so so they were out, but we we told their teammates, actually, their teammates were Oskar Nijse and Tim van der Pavert. They always come back in my story. And at a certain point they forwarded a message to us Double is penalty here. And then we could look at what time they did it, we could look online which board they were playing, and it was a situation where you can have ⁓ the discussion if ⁓ double was penalty or not. unfortunately forgot to set it privately to his bridge partner and send it in the group chat o group chat of their team. Mistakes were made. Mistakes were made. ⁓ But the the the bad thing about this is so this pair was caught cheating on the on the act. Well that is hardly possible in in Bridge. And still they were not the the they they didn't get banned by the Dutch reservation. Because it happened on BBO. Wow. And the Dutch restoration had nothing to handle that situation. What I find still pretty h pretty horrible. ⁓ to think about it. But yeah, it it's already for me already a long time ago and it happened. But actually what was even worse was like now one and a half year ago. I think that's now the the time schedule we are talking about. ⁓ there was a guy. first he was on the on the third league. And he did very well. It was like very well. And in the and I'm chairman of a of a bridge club in the Netherlands and he played some of my ⁓ of the people ⁓ of of my club. And we were discussing the boards, and in the end I said, those people know exactly how to bid this slam and that slam. And so I was a bit suspicious. And then I looked at the results of other matches they played, but I saw they bit A slam with two aces out and went down. So I was thinking, okay, maybe they're just lucky. But the year after that, in the second league, the guy played with three different bridge partners and had the best butler in as far as we could look back. So ⁓ he so he played with three different bridge partners and did better than. any pair that played in the second league ever. And we had some pretty decent player pairs that have played in the second league. So I was pretty sure this is this is not good. And then the last round he played again against ⁓ one of ⁓ of people who ⁓ of a a team of my bridge club. And a yeah, this is I hope you're in for a bridge hand. Are you okay with it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so of the second division. So you have Ace Queen. Ace fifth, ace fourth, ace king. Ace Queen, ace fifth, ace fourth, ace king. Yeah. Seven, eleven, fifteen, nineteen, twenty one. Pretty good hand. Okay. Pretty good hand. So something very strange happens. It goes pass, pass, and righty opens two clubs strong. He's red, you're white. Okay. D I ⁓ my righty opened two clubs strong with and I've got this hand. Yeah. Okay. So you pause. ⁓ okay. Lefty bits two diamonds. It goes yeah, pass, pass and you double. Okay. That seems like a pretty normal action. And now we all will know that two diamonds was a ⁓ was a well this was a a trick by the opponent. ⁓ a baby psych. Now lefty bits ⁓ four diamonds. Okay. That first two diamonds waiting, but now he left he thinks that Riley had a ⁓ a week two in diamonds, so ⁓ so raised. And your partner, it's four hard. ⁓ damn it partner. I wanted to double them for diamonds. No, I understand the partner bits four hearts. So ⁓ so what what what would you bit over four hearts? It is in your eighth fifth. I mean No, I know, I I know. I remember. ⁓ Hm. I guess I would bid ⁓ probably key card. No. Smart exercise. I mean it's but maybe partner won't think it's ⁓ key card, but I think it's key card. We'll see. What will be your second option? Five diamonds. What'll be your third option? Maybe six hearts. What will be your fourth option? Seven hearts. No, very reasonable. I think the moment you will f you you will know the the bit this guy made will take another ten tries because it was six no trump. Wow. Six no trump? But you have Ace worth in diamonds and partner very often is short in diamonds. So it seems very ⁓ unlikely. That's what I'm thinking. But the thing was partner had Jack 10 X of diamonds. And you have Ace Fourth. ⁓ And you know how the diamonds are. So when you bid six No, six No is in your hand and you will make the contract. Right. But if you bid six hearts, if they leave a diamond you're ⁓ he doesn't know the diamond situation. Well, may I think his partner would also have figured it out. But that's ⁓ that that but yeah, you you don't take chances. So but the the the the the bad thing about this, this guy who did this was working at the Dutch Bridge Federation. ⁓ Somebody comes to mind, but I'm not gonna say their name. No, it's I don't think it's him. No, no, no. It's ⁓ no no no. He he he he got ⁓ suspended. ⁓ no, he he got convicted. ⁓ so what but but it it was still pretty strange because this guy had a ⁓ impeccable reputation reputation in the Netherlands. He was like ⁓ And he was also above 60. There was no reason for him to start cheating for whatever reason. He was always a ⁓ well, a decent player, but nothing more than that. Yeah. ⁓ and for some reason he started doing it. And there were all a lot of people who who didn't believe he was cheating. He they couldn't believe. They they they knew him. They knew him for 30 years. He was not cheating. Yeah. ⁓ a good friend of mine. Who was working at the same desk as he that he said, well, I couldn't believe it. It was not possible this guy was cheating. That was not, that was so totally out of character. And that is what when I think back about the Fisher thing in 2014. I was also like, yeah, I I didn't know how you detect cheating. But now I was pretty now I'm I'm more like, yeah, I see things happening. And then it's not possible. And ⁓ and got this. But this was even for the Dutch Business Federation was pretty hard because I then ⁓ made an accu accusation. Well, I I thought the Dutch Reserve Federation, like, yeah, you have a cheater. Well, I think you have a cheater. It's not. And then they made a commission where they put Simon Device in, for example. To check what they think about ⁓ the scores, the boards, and everything, if it was good enough to to get the case to prosecution. And at that moment he admitted that he was ⁓ cheating. And that was I think was very good because the problem we have in Bridge is that if people deny they're cheating and go to court, we have a hard time ⁓ getting them convicted. Yeah. Yeah we have we have ⁓ some people ⁓ who are even walking around in the bridge world. We all think have cheated. I would try to say this in a very polite way because ⁓ I don't want to get the lawyers on my ⁓ on my head. That's probably in Dutch expression. ⁓ but that that's th that's pretty irritating that w that we are pretty much convinced as the British community they are cheating and that they cannot get convicted. And and that's that's so strange that for example, ⁓ I'm now doing also ⁓ I have a lot of meetings with a Dutch doping authority. And then you think, why Tim? Do you have meetings with the Dutch Doping Authority? Doping in Bridge is it is it exists. ⁓ but it's not so important. It's because I'm ⁓ since one and a half years I'm member of the Dutch ⁓ Athletes Committee and since January this year I'm the chairman. So I'm ⁓ so I'm there with all kinds of other sports people like I'm with a guy who won Olympic medal for ⁓ gold medal in swimming and my co-chairman is one who won gold medal with field hockey ⁓ and so so ⁓ But all kinds of other sports where doping is way more there. And with doping, it is like if you have just a small ⁓ substance wrong in your body, you get convicted. And with bridge is more like, ⁓ no, we don't only want to see in the boards that you cheat. We also like to know how you cheated and The way you we we we we want to know how you treat it, we want to crack the code because because before we crack the code, we are not sure enough to convict you. But it's insane amount of evidence we have to gather to get a pair convicted. Well, if you have only a wrong substance because you just eat the wrong meat or you took a medicine that was unfortunately had some doping in it, and you get convicted. In bridge I I have heard heard in in Portugal the story ⁓ a guy is was suspended for two years because he had ⁓ he took pills for for peeing, but it's the same pills some sport topsport people use to ⁓ disguise ⁓ doping use. So the guy was convicted for two years for nothing. And then we have cheaters walking around because we are not able to have enough evidence. How was the guy cheating and what happened to him? He ⁓ he looked at the the the the boards were made at the Dutch Bisferation. And he looked at the hands before playing. He looked at the hand record? Yeah. Well not hand records. I think he went into the actual I I maybe it were hand records or he actually looked at the hands and wrote them down. I have to admit, I'm quite impressed on how well he remembered the hands. But Yeah, that's that's the the thing. So and they had ⁓ they made a ⁓ the the thing was that there was only one key of the room where the boards were, but he duplicated the key of that room. ⁓ and so that's the way he got in. It was not ⁓ it was not like it was very easy to see the boards, but it also didn't take a genius to ⁓ to get to the ends. Right. But this is ⁓ yeah, this this was it was a big scandal in the in the Dutch West Federation. But it it basically also I feel now pretty confident when I think somebody is cheating. I'm I'm pretty confident. Simon DeWice told me even like but what you saw a year earlier when the guy was playing third division, why didn't you then not already r ⁓ ring a bell like ⁓ this guy's cheating, we have to do something about it. And it was because I was not convinced enough So I'm for for myself, even if I think this is cheating, I still want more ⁓ I want more proof. ⁓ for me before I really do something. That's a big accusation. You it's not something you want to say about some somebody that ⁓ I mean, the you know, sometimes like if I make a good play, like on bridge base, for example, ⁓ in just kind of a nothing ⁓ you know, like an A C B L tournament. I I I kind of I kind of think if somebody you know, sometimes I think people will think I'm cheating. ⁓ and I'm like I'm like, I hope they do. I mean I don't, so I I'm not worried about it. But sometimes I'm like, you know, maybe they think I'm cheated because I 'cause I did this or whatever, or my partner and I did something. And I'm like, you know what? That's like a big compliment. If somebody thinks you're cheating. Because You did something really well or extraordinary. You know, you probably got a great result. I like great results. Yeah. But the thing is is in bridges works like this. Sometimes you do something that is you do something very ⁓ against the odds. Because you don't know better, or sometimes because you have a ⁓ you have you you have ⁓ a very good ⁓ well you usually because You you you usually you do it because you don't know better, you make a stupid mistake. But sometimes some stupid mistakes turn out very well because the port is now in a way that that helps you. I think about the every ten mistakes I make, I think one time that happens. That I make a mistake, but the mistake actually wins me points. Yeah. I think three out of those ten times my mistake doesn't matter. Like I I I play a board horrible, but luckily the cards are like that that what line you ever take, it always makes. ⁓ or always goes down for that matter. And I think six out of ten times when I make a mistake, it will cost me points. And so if if my opponent does something right, what is extraordinary, I will not be like, ⁓ this is this is a cheater, because ⁓ everybody it happens. It happens to me, it happens to everybody. And maybe this guy has a lucky match. He has three horrible mistakes and two of them win, and one doesn't matter. I'm still not thinking this guy's cheating. The thing is, if I now look at ⁓ 30 more boards. And I see another three times he's extremely lucky, and zero times ⁓ it goes wrong, then I'm thinking we we are getting somewhere that is ⁓ that that that starts to look like cheating. And luckily, most players are not in ⁓ good enough to cheat well. How about how good was this guy's butler? It was pretty good. He he he scored ⁓ let's say he scored an average of twenty M's per sixteen board match. The best pair I found, en dat is a pair that now plays in the highest league in the Netherlands, scored 15. He scored them by 5 imps. But he did it with three different British partners. That is quite insane. So what happened to him? Is he still does he is he allowed to play? Like was he welcomed back because he compressed or like ⁓ I he was he I think he got ⁓ two years suspended and is now I think he's n it's now around this time he's allowed to come back. And I I don't have problems with that. ⁓ I sometimes see also ⁓ but that it that's more a ⁓ a a personal way I look at things. I think people are allowed to make mistakes. ⁓ get punished for it. Especially when you confess. Especially when you confess when you confess. I think it's a big deal to admit you do it. You did it. Yeah. ⁓ and then come back and then then I I don't have that much I don't have that much problem with them. ⁓ for me, like like Rupertis is He will he plays now in the Dutch competition too. I find it harder. Although I don't know exactly the the the the conviction, but I'm pretty much convinced that the most people will will were convicted. They had a pretty big ⁓ case against them. And he never admitted. He actually wrote a whole article in the Dutch Ration or in the in ⁓ in the Imp Bridge magazine, if you know it, where he ⁓ where he claimed to be innocent. I that that's what I then I'm I'm not very fond of you. Of course, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he was convicted because I I didn't look all at all his hands, but I'm pretty sure that ⁓ that he was. So that's that's the thing, and and even then it's like yeah, you get convicted, you get your your penalty, ⁓ your your sometimes I'm looking for the English word. Sentence. Yeah, you get your sentence and then you and you you sit for your sentence and then you are three free again to do. And it's not that when I play Hubertins I am thinking he's cheating again. Because it was online, live. I never had the idea he was cheating. ⁓ so ⁓ I actually played against him t two years ago. And I I'm yeah, I'm okay that they come back and ⁓ play again. ⁓ But ⁓ but that's with all things I see in in life. I think you do something wrong, you get your sentence, you sit your sentence, and then you are back into society again. I'm I'm I want I don't want to blame someone for eternity for what he had what what for what he once did. But that makes me a softie. Don't you agree, John? I'm a softy. I've I've always found you to be a very nice A softie, thank you, John. ⁓ yeah, I mean I've ⁓ you know, we we've had dinner. Maybe I don't know, I think I remember at a restaurant, ⁓ maybe it was in Bratzlav, I don't know. ⁓ I don't know if we had dinner together, but ⁓ Yeah, maybe we ate it at the same restaurant and I came and sat at your table for a period of time. You know, Bridges it it's funny, you know, 'cause like I remember playing against you and ⁓ Sonya ⁓ in the World Pairs. We made the we both made the finals of the World Pairs. I remember. And ⁓ s so I've known you for a long time and I've always liked you. ⁓ but we've probably you know, like y I see you a lot, but well, I don't know that we've ⁓ it's s ever spent, you know, like ⁓ Like let's see, what is our what our WhatsApp conversation history? It goes back to you know, I I don't know. It's it's nice to talk to you, you know. I and and I was excited when when in St. Louis we kinda ⁓ I we talked about being on the podcast and I was excited because you said you specifically you wanted to talk about losing. No, I the same for you, ⁓ John. I always like you ⁓ around and it's always fun. And maybe it's not But that I this is what I have with a lot of in the bridge world. Some people you only see two or three times a year. And still you're like, ⁓ that's a nice guy. And it's it's nice to hang around. And maybe you only hang around like one hour in a whole year. And still you're like, yeah, that's nice. and that's also what I have. I th most people in the bridge in the British community, let's say when I'm in the when I'm in the States, I I like it. Most of them are nice people and they the the ⁓ Who are good who also try to play clean and nice are fun a bit of conversation. ⁓ it's not that and also I have the idea that the last few years because of ⁓ all those cheaters that were ⁓ kicked out, most of those those cheaters were not the nicest people for some reason. No, and that's that's that's what I ⁓ That's that's one of the of the well there are a lot of nice things of being ⁓ a bridge professional, but this already helps. If I would go to every tournament and would think, Okay, I have to work ⁓ two weeks. Yeah. I don't know if I would ⁓ able to do that all the time. It's an unusual thing, I think, that we have as bridge players who go to all these tournaments and see each other and ⁓ you know, and I and it's really a gift. I think ⁓ the the the fact that there's so many interesting people. You know, bridge has a reputation ⁓ as being a game game for older people, but I think that's not really the case, you know, at the type of tournaments that we're going to and ⁓ and it's really cool to have friends from ⁓ you know, Netherlands all over the world. And they're such a it's such a we have in and we have this bridge in common. Like I was at this ⁓ thing last night, I was at this bluegrass concert ⁓ it's every Wednesday night in my town. And and I was talking to somebody who who was interested in learning bridge some years ago. And so I gave her and her husband ⁓ like a like a primer. And I'm and I probably didn't do a great job. Like I've definitely learned ⁓ like less is more in the in the teaching of new players bridge. But she's like played trick taking games and her husband had been really keen at learning one point. And so she showed up with like a notebook and I was just I just love that. I was like, ⁓ yes, like she's really fired up. And ⁓ and and it and it didn't really you know, it didn't really take. Like she did some ⁓ tricky bridge. ⁓ she downloaded that, but it just didn't, you know, like it wasn't like boom, you know, like, okay, I'm into bridge now. And ⁓ and so I was just talking to her and I was and I was saying how like it's such a huge part of my life. Like it is it is, you know, it is ridiculous how big of a part of my life it is. And so I'm so happy that I have it. ⁓ and that's part of the reason why I do this podcast is so that I can get to know people better like you, ⁓ who I who we played against each other in St. Louis and ⁓ and ⁓ unfortunately I I was a total fish on the first board and let you make three no trump, which I guess you could have always made if you played the Ten of Hearts on the first trick. I I the thing is I rem My your memory is better than mine. I only remember we lost that match. That's what I remember. and I know I had ⁓ a 3.0 that came in that was not ⁓ what what was not what should shouldn't have been done, but the way the cards were and things like that. No unfortunately, ⁓ John, my memory my memory is better for my mistakes. Well, I think well What happened was you had two small hearts and dummy had ace ten nine four. And I had Queen Jack four. And you had like ⁓ and so I led a heart and now you rose ace. Yeah, because I couldn't now I got in with like a The thing was I now I remember the hand I couldn't handle a club switch. That was the reason. Well, you only had one card in clubs? I think something like that. So I rose with the ace and I was also pretty ha hopeful this would block the suit because if you ⁓ if you let from Queen Fourth, King Fourth of or Jack Fourth the shoot would would would get blocked. ⁓ Well it did block the suit. I I I I I I didn't take I didn't take into account my extra chances. ⁓ No, no, no, no. ⁓ man. Now I did less research for this episode than I do for most episodes, and that and I'm blaming my ⁓ my my my recovery from surgery here. But one of the things that I did notice in ⁓ looking you up was that you played with Danny ⁓ and I don't know how to say it's I I I'll I'll try to say it's like d Mulinair. Pretty good played with Danny for more than twenty for more than twenty years. Like you played with Danny, right? Well, it happened like this. I was twelve. I was playing ⁓ in my ⁓ I I I I'm originally from ⁓ The Hague or to a small village next to The Hague, but you will call that a suburb in ⁓ in the states. ⁓ and I was looking for ⁓ a bridge partner of my age. And then Danny's mother in law, well now mother in law. But ⁓ back then just ⁓ somebody said, Well I know a guy who also plays, maybe you two should play together. So that's now more than twenty eight years ago. It's not that we have played always all the time together. I tried to break up once. Didn't succeed. ⁓ But basically we we we played together for for for twenty eight years. So the thing is also that people also think that I'm Danny Molenaar, if you know how to pronounce it ⁓ Dutchy way. But Molenaar just means Miller. So it's just Miller. Huh. If you want to ⁓ make it yourself easier. That's interesting. So and and and that's how we started. And yeah, I was twelve, he was thirteen, he's like ⁓ eight months older than I am. And and we started playing together. We were well I had then some level, don't call it a lot of level, but some level, and then he had basically none. I know he started when we started playing bridge, his ⁓ his his takeout double. So it it goes a hard to double. It only showed points. So I remember one hand that he that left the open one hard, my then he doubled, it went past and I had four spades. And I was used to play with my father real takeout doubles, so double showed some spades. So I I bit four spades back then with my four card suit because I was Of course, I didn't have any clue how to get in the 5-3-fit or 4-4 fit. And then my partner tibbled down a stiff spade. I was just totally not aware that about how this bidding worked. And we went from there from total beginners. And we had actually a very nice tournament in 1998. And you know when people are old, when they talk about things that happened before that year 2000. And we were there because my father ⁓ my my my father I I I learned bridge with my father when I was ten. And my father was always was not a guy who was asked, ⁓ he's a ten year old guy, so he cannot play bridge till late in the evening. No, he said, Well, they we have Friday evening bridge clubs. You cannot play on the Friday evening bridge club. And then it doesn't matter that that you are that you're late home because on Saturday you can ⁓ you can sleep ⁓ till late. I didn't do any sports in the weekend, so I had no trouble with with those kinds of things. And my father was like, ⁓ the world championships, the ⁓ the open world championships are in ⁓ in ⁓ Lyu, ⁓ France. But I think you will know where Lyu is. You are ⁓ you are a guy of the world, you know things. And ⁓ and there was a youth tournament there. So we got we got there. Well we I we were both thirteen then. then he nearly 14. And yeah, we had to play. And then the Dutch coach there, he he knew two, ⁓ he knew some people and there were two German girls we could play ⁓ together with. And ⁓ well we were very young, but ⁓ in hindsight we were we we were like okay those two are were very pretty girls ⁓ yeah who were like twenty three we were John, we didn't know anything. And they ⁓ and and and we did very well. But I also thought that most opponents were more busy looking at their opponents than than looking at the cards when they were playing the girls. So we I think we finished like ninth out of 20 22 teams. And that was that was our first ⁓ real success. What what gave us the ⁓ after that we got into the under 20 selections? ⁓ And that's that's basically where it started. And the age of fifteen, we played our first Europeans. We were lucky that bus drivers should break. We were also under 20s back then, but it was so good that they already played the juniors. So we could play the the the schools. And since then, basically all the youth teams we ⁓ we we played in and then at certain point people say, Yeah, there's also a professional bridge. And that started when we were 27, when we played on the Azores, also some youth tournament. That's a nice thing about bridge. You play bridge everywhere. And the Azores, I can tell everybody, it's very nice group of islands. If you want to visit it once in your life, it's sure worth the visit. And there we met Kevin Dwyer, who was hey, I'm still looking for teammates. ⁓ with ⁓ With Whipple and ⁓ with Kimberly Whipple and Cookie Potter on the team. And that's basically where my professional ⁓ life started. In a nutshell. This is my life in a nutshell. So so they needed he needed teammates for the tournament in the Azores. Azuros. No, no, no. On the Azores we we won the pairs. And Kevin was looking for a pair to play in the in the in the nationals. Because he had a team that he was playing the half of the boards with Kimberly and the other half of the boards with Cookie. And he needed a pair that played the rest. And I have to admit Those were the most hard in Bridgeway's hard things to play. We played sometimes 72 boards on a day. So I played the whole week, boards of 72 and 48. And I I have to admit, if if I play 72 boards on a day, three days in a row, at a certain point I'm throwing cards at the table. Tossing cards at the table, I think, is a better way to discuss it. It's it's it's hard. But maybe I'm ⁓ I'm not ⁓ used to it, ⁓ you know. But that's when you won the Europeans, you were four handed. Yes. But on the Europeans, you you only play forty-eight, maybe fifty-six boards at most on a day. But I have to admit also at the end of that tournament, I was hammered. Because I that's usually one of my my problems. I don't sleep that well during tournaments. Like the seven hour average on the night. Some people it's more than enough, but I'm a guy who needs a lot of sleep. And then usually during a tournament I then have Ezra Lin and everything that keeps me okay. But at a certain point it goes pluck. Usually after the end of the final. Then ⁓ I know I played the pairs afterwards. I was really like, what you thinking what I'm doing here? And you know what's the worst thing when you're a as a British player? If you have the feeling like what am I doing here? Then you know then you are not in the zone. This is Trump, so yeah. Who who did you guys beat in the final there? ⁓ Norwegian team. ⁓ Yeah. I unfortunately I don't know their names ⁓ by heart. That is maybe a yeah. No, but that was that was it was a pretty lucky draw. I think that was a team we were considering because we we won the the the round robin was a team we were considering to choose ⁓ in the round of of of thirty two, but then some new new Team from New Zealand was also made it to the round of 32 and we chose them. Did that like how what did that do for your confidence to win that thing? Yeah, a lot. I know that two years before we played in Belgium the same tournament and we got knocked out before reaching the the knockout stages, and I was really like, okay, what am I doing in the bridge world? I Yeah I don't score anything, I I suck all the time. It doesn't work. And then Sanja was already pretty good in 2014. So when I played you in the in the finals of the Pairs, I know I played the finals of the Pairs and I felt very bad the first day. I was a little bit ill. And I tried to save myself by drinking Red Bull because that was free available there. But I can tell you that's not the best way to ⁓ to survive. ⁓ I went that was so bad. ⁓ so it was already getting better, but yeah, twenty fifteen was really my my my breakthrough year. ⁓ getting dead, getting on ⁓ into a a big team in the States. ⁓ that was that was yeah, that was really good. ⁓ Yeah. And then you guys came second in the same event in twenty nineteen. Yes, we did. Against people, ⁓ some people who are now ⁓ convicted of cheating. Actually, I just found out that I played against the Hackett brothers. And one of those Hackett brothers is now a famous guy. He ⁓ Yeah. I have a story about that. He drinks he drinks the beers. And as yeah, but you should probably say it like not right after you said that these guys were I don't think they were the No no no. Of course Alex Hydes ⁓ is is the guy ⁓ who who who was ⁓ convicted. But I ⁓ they asked me if ⁓ in hindsight if they had any idea that they were even cheating during that match. Well, I could guess it's just Alex Hydes. ⁓ for example I played most of the boards against ⁓ Posk and ⁓ and Jones. Very straight guys. No no pro no problem for them. But that was ⁓ that that is still ⁓ an unfortunate loss. That that final. Because in the semifinals we beat ⁓ Buras Nakievich and ⁓ Kalita Novosatski while they were four-handed, ⁓ and we beat them, so that felt a bit a bit like the final. And then in the final we we lost to a team, we were like, Yeah. That was painful. But that's ⁓ no it's that that is ⁓ th those those that's my tournament. The ⁓ let me tell you the story about about ⁓ Jason Hackett. Okay. So I interviewed so he he hi his name is suit. No, I can't think of his name. ⁓ I will help you. Darn it. Prime mutton. Yeah. Okay, so his online name is Prime Mutton, which is a pretty ridiculous name. I mean, I don't I don't I'm not around a lot of mutton, but it's amusing the the idea that there's such a thing as prime mutton. But I interviewed him from this podcast ⁓ in the last year or so and ⁓ and he like you said, he drinks Guinness and he's got a big following and his kind of his his line on Guinness is when he drinks fun is to say that's an absolute creamer. Yeah. And that's like his catchphrase. And so I ⁓ with my with my ⁓ sling here, I was at the I was at the physical therapy ⁓ center last week and there's a kid there who I play squash and he grew up playing squash at the same building where I play and then he went on to represent the the local college team squash. ⁓ which is which is really good. And so His name's Evan and and Evan ⁓ you know, it's all it's been fun to watch him rise in the game and but now he's training to be a physical therapist. And so I'm waiting last week for my ⁓ physical therapist to to see me and he tells me that he had watched this ⁓ he had seen like my episode. He doesn't play bridge at all, but he had seen my episode with ⁓ with Jason because he d he knew about him ⁓ from drinking the beers. So ⁓ yeah Jason's doing a lot to cross over bridge. ⁓ that but I don't I haven't played against him that much. I actually me neither. It's even at those Open Europeans in 2019 they were not ⁓ that much around anymore. they are not on the English squad. So I guess they are playing most of the time just in England. Yeah, that's ⁓ that's not where I'm usually am. So ⁓ I should ask my teammate David Bakshee. He will probably know where they are playing and how much they are playing. So were they on the team that beat you in the finals? Yep. You should know that because you interviewed him, so you did some research. No, I know, I know, I know, but come on. I I did I did do it does sound familiar. So so talk to me about losing. You said specifically in St. Louis you wanted to talk about losing for the podcast. Yeah, yeah, because I I remembered that that moment in ⁓ in Lyon ⁓ for you and also what I had is that British is quite quite a cruel game. Because you lose a lot. Even if you are the Teamerman team that wins a lot, the Teamerman team. But I think they don't even reach like I think they reach like 30 or 40% of the tournaments they enter, they win. And maybe that's already a high ⁓ maybe that's already too high. So basically we lose. We lose all the time everywhere. And It makes it hard because every time you lose if you lose by a a big number, like last national I lost to the level weak team by ⁓ a zillion. You're quite I'm quite okay with it. Like ⁓ i i if you if you l if you lose by a lot you're like okay the the other team was better and ⁓ and I lost. But usually you could have done something better. You could have ⁓ Or maybe it was a session where you made a couple of mistakes after which they ran away. Well, if you didn't do that, ⁓ you would have catch up. You make mistakes. We all make mistakes. It's it's it's impossible, nearly impossible to play flawless. If you play 16 boards flawless, ⁓ you must be very happy with yourself. And usually we brush players are not. We're like, ⁓ that's that's that's how it should be. And then ⁓ the next ⁓ sixteen boards you throw three boards away, you do three stupid things, and you're like, okay, I'm I suck at this game, like horrible. So that was that was my my idea of ⁓ talking with because how how do you handle your losses? I mean it's hard. Like it's particularly hard in the when we got in V when we got eliminated in the ⁓ Vanderbilt in St. Louis ⁓ I made like there was one hand where ⁓ I rough my partner's winner. And ⁓ I mean I did have a reason for it, but ⁓ it it was the difference between beating ⁓ a three spade contract and going down and declare going down at three spades and ⁓ And and then it was funny because the view graph out so what happened was like Dummy had king third of a suit, I had Queen Jack Tite, partner had the ace and Declare had ten third. So I led like a suit and Dummy had five diamonds and I had seven diamonds and they played the ace and partner roughed it. And now the and and had gone two spades past three spades all past. And so now my partner had a long tank. And she played a low club. And it went Jack. I don't remember if Declare played the K10 on this trick. ⁓ anyway, Declara won it, and now they played a spade, I think, and I won it. And now I played another club, which was the Queen, and partner overtook it, and I think righty I think Declara played the ten. Mm-hmm. So now my partner and I had the ⁓ it went spade and Yeah, no, it went spade. My I had Queen and one spade, partner had ace in one. So my partner won the Ace of Spades, which was Trump, and now played the Ace of Clubs and it went ten. Queen. And now my partner had the nine. And right he had to follow. But I just sort of blacked out and roughed it. And even now on the screen, you look so horrible, John. It's like you are like, ⁓ no. And and Dunley had like the ace of hearts. And I thought my partner maybe had the Queen of Hearts and I had the King. So I like King of Hearts. And now they can't ⁓ they can't play their di they can't pitch on their diamond because the diamonds were five, seven, one, zero or zero Five seven zero one. And so and now declare makes a contract. But the funny thing was the view graph operator showed them as playing the ten of clubs on the third round of clubs. So I did have to rough it in order to to have a chance. Nice. So it was kind of like so I went through this I went through this pain of like I'm such an idiot. Like aft it was the last board of the third quarter. I'm like, I'm such a fucking idiot. ⁓ my God. And then like the next day I looked at the viewcraft archive and I'm like, wait a second. ⁓ it wasn't a winner. Like I had to rough it. That was my only chance. And then I talked to my partner about it. And she's like, No, he played the tennis class on the second round for no reason. No, I that that's a very bad partner. I ⁓ I will I will tell it. Your partner should have said, yes, yes, you're right, you're right. That's completely normal. You feel better, everybody feels better. I sometimes have a hand. I've had a hand that even l lately I played some tournament that was that was not so ⁓ was not important. But the guy on my left against Trino underled Ace King Jack 5th. So I had Queen Doubleton in Dummy. I took the Queen. Okay. And now I played spade back because I was thinking that's my best chance to get some kind of squeeze. Because I had in clubs, I had Ace King 10 five times opposite three little. And in the hearts, I had Ace Queen, Ace King Jack X opposite 10x. So ready pitches a quite high heart. And if the Queen of Hearts is now on site, I think I made my contract. So I take now the hard fairness. And go down one because it was off. Unfortunately, Queen Jack of Clubs were dropping. I feel so bad. I said, shall we shall we just say that that you cast your first five spade spade tricks? And I'm just down one. It's a much better story. We're all happy. This is feels so bad. So that I I I I know I know the f the feeling. ⁓ I always feel so horrible when I make a mistake and ⁓ and Esther, especially if I didn't have any chance if the opponent just did it right, then I always like, ⁓ fuck it. Just do it right and I cannot make a mistake. That's so much better. So is is Martine, is that your dad then? Martine? Martine Verbique. Martine is not related to me. ⁓ really? About not related to me. I also have a good story about that. But you played the first event in your in your WBF profile. You played with Martine. No, that's not true. I know it's it's on the record. So you did a good research. But it's not correct. It was with my father. ⁓ What's his name? His official name is ⁓ so his name is Rien. Like in Rien, it is like French, verbeek. ⁓ but his ⁓ his official name is Christian Marinus. C dot ⁓ dot. So there's an ⁓ in it, and Martina Verbeek also has an ⁓ So they ⁓ made things up but Martina and I still are still joking sees my mother so that's ⁓ that's thing but I actually with my la last name I had even ⁓ more trouble because at certain point we had in the Dust Bridgewald we had Erik Verbeek or Verbeak just say for beak in English everything sounds better and ⁓ and and this guy ⁓ this guy was ⁓ had a gambling problem. And to get money, he asked everybody for money. and also international people. So at a certain point, some guy came to me and said ⁓ you owe me money. Yeah. What is the chance that there are two verbiques around the same age and not related? That's that's impossible. Like in if you go to any other country and two people have the same last name and are both in the youth, that is like ninety-nine percent said they are they're related to each other. But also this guy was not related to me, nor to Martina. But people were like, Yeah, Tim, ⁓ I get money from your brother, and I'm like, No, that's not true. That's ⁓ we I know the problems, but please don't give him money. That was that was not the best of ⁓ of moments. Actually at some poverty I was still Facebook friends with him and I got a call by a guy who was ⁓ collecting money. And he said, Yes, we are and they were not ⁓ I don't know how you call those people in the in an English language. But they ⁓ and y most of them just try to get the money. So they go to the address and ⁓ and it's but these guys were a social ⁓ ⁓ social part and ⁓ of our social and so they first want to know everybody before doing ⁓ horrible stuff and they they called us like yeah ⁓ BC your name is Verbeek and ⁓ and we are asking about Erik Verbeek ⁓ we still we still got money from him that's the line I heard most in my life Erik Verbeek we still get we still got money from you actually when I look at pictures of him and I look at pictures of Joro van der Sloot do you know that guy? Natalie Holloway? Does that ring a bell? Natalie Holloway? Uh-uh. American girl that was murdered in ⁓ on ⁓ Curaçao of Aruba. By a Dutch guy. ⁓ That's a pretty horrible story. But his picture and the picture of Erik Verbeek I find always pretty similar. Horrible people. But that's So that was that was not the best time to have my last name. So I have problems with my first name, Tim, because I have other people with that name. And I have a problem with my last name for B. Also other people have that name. So I feel not particular unique in this world. Who's your team for the ⁓ World Championships for the Rosenblum? ⁓ I have no team. I'm not sure if I'm coming. Really? Really? Well I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sorry I asked. No no no problem. I'm pretty sure I will be coming like ⁓ we as Dutch ⁓ British Federation the Dutch Reservation gets money from the state, let's call it that way, to send their ⁓ pairs to tournaments. So ⁓ for me it's usually at the best ways to to ⁓ to get hired. And then I will ⁓ that that's easy. But ⁓ if not, ⁓ then usually we we we make some good Dutch team. Just like we did in Tromzo and what we did in twenty nineteen in Istanbul. ⁓ that's basically how it ⁓ how it works for us. But yeah, ⁓ John if you're looking for teammates. ⁓ But I guess I guess you also have already have a team. That's true. I have some Dutch teammates actually. Timon Oscar? Incorrect. Guy and Luke? Incorrect. I even don't know. I'm surprised. Tebow and Seabrand. T Bow and Seabrans. Nice. ⁓ nice guys, nice guys. Now ⁓ that's that's good. You have them. It's always good to have some Dutch on your team. Do you know that it's a couple of years ago there was that we had t shirts like if you ate Dutch you ate much? I think I actually have some Dutch heritage. ⁓ because you you know, some of you got Dutch guys here. I feel like ⁓ we've got some com you know common physical Yeah, you're you're you're you're much taller than I am. I I agree. But yeah, it you sounds very Scottish, ⁓ McAllister. Well that's ⁓ I mean my name's certainly Scottish. But ⁓ I don't know that much about my family, ⁓ my family lineage really. I know my ⁓ I think it was my great grandfather came from Scotland. I think he might have been adopted. So but ⁓ And you said you've you gotta go pick up your daughter. How old is your daughter? My daughter is four years old. And actually I was very lucky. ⁓ wow. I was very lucky because last nationals were quite early. And four years ago I missed Reno. By the way, if you can skip Reno all the time, I don't mind. I'm not sure how how other people think about it, but I think it's the most horrible place to play bridge. to make some ⁓ some ⁓ but so I missed that tournament because Rosa was born and ⁓ but this time because nationals were early, I was ⁓ back on the eighteenth of March to ⁓ to see my first day at elementary school for my daughter. So ⁓ now of course I have to I have to show you a picture. Yeah, because otherwise it's but it's of course it's horrible to send you to show you the picture this way. So maybe I will send you the picture and you can ⁓ you can put it into the the podcast ⁓ yourself. Alright. That sounds very fancy, but we'll see what we can do. ⁓ but ⁓ in case that will not work, let's go to the eighteenth of March. And I hope you can see it. Yeah, she's really cute. ⁓ I think so too. Of course, this this picture she's holding her her eyes closed. ⁓ yeah. But so that's so I was back in the Netherlands too for our first school day. So I'm I'm very happy. I think I will not be on her birthday the next four years or something like that. The life of a British pro. What did she think about that? N so far she's ⁓ she's okay with it. She the the the first few times I got totally punished by it because when there are like two. So just before the tournament I was kind of her favorite. Then I'm two weeks gone and she's like, Who is that guy that's coming home now? It's getting better. She is now, she knows I'm gone, ⁓ we call ⁓ things like that. But the my the much she likes me is always after two weeks gone, is always less. And then it's also then she's used that everything in our life is done by her mother. So I'm basically not allowed to do anything. ⁓ what you can say is helpful because yeah, as dad, you want to do as less. ⁓ as less as possible, maybe, but I'm still like, well, it would be nice if she sometimes says, ⁓ daddy, it's nice. I have a couple of things I usually do with her: is ⁓ I have a wooden train track. ⁓ you have to build yourself. That's something she really does with me. And also regularly I just go with her to the train station and we take a train to somewhere, eat a croissant somewhere and then come back. And that's that's really her day out with ⁓ with with me. ⁓ with my wife. She usually ⁓ she usually goes swimming or to the zoo or things like that. So she has really enough things to do with mommy and with daddy, but usually when she wakes up in the morning, the first thing she says, Mommy, come here and then Usually if things have to be done, usually it's mummy she prefers. Does mommy play bridge? Yes. Mommy who does play bridge. Actually, she's not playing bridge right now at some local bridge club. Really? But I I showed you ⁓ my ⁓ collection of medals and I only there's only one WBF gold medal in it. I cannot see it now right away. Maybe Rosa played played with it. ⁓ But there's only one gold medal ⁓ from the WBF, and that's actually won by Micah. She became ⁓ under 26 women world champion. ⁓ I think something like eight or nine years ago. Nine years ago. And that's ⁓ so I still have to work for to getting the best medal. So we when you go to the ⁓ World Championships, will you play the pairs with Danny also? Like most likely? Because I feel like you probably don't play pairs in the US that much. We usually we don't play pairs at all. That's what we avoid. It's not ⁓ it's ⁓ it's a cruel game ma ⁓ match point. And ⁓ and therefore I usually play it with somebody else. So I once became sixth in think it was Orlando Philadelphia Orlando where the ⁓ Rimstead brothers won. There I became sixth. ⁓ that was Orlando. With ⁓ with Bart there I played with Bart Knop and I became sixth. That is my ⁓ my my best result. ⁓ and I I I I really like I really like the game. ⁓ and since partnership is not so important I usually played with ⁓ somebody I like to play with. And that's also because playing with my regular partner it's mentally harder. In sense that if if if I make a mistake or he makes a mistake, it's more like ⁓ that's horrible. We make a mistake. Well, when I play with somebody else, it's more like ⁓ the other guy makes a mistake. I don't care. It's ⁓ I will not play with him ⁓ again ⁓ next time. And that makes it ⁓ easier and therefore way more fun for me to play. So I I regularly play with ⁓ people ⁓ around like I just played the Dutch Match Points Championships and I was playing with a Dennis and I and Dennis was playing half of the day, so two days with me and two days with other Tim. So it was Dennis and Tim, but not always the same Tim. And it I I really enjoyed it. ⁓ we we ended up ninth or something like that. Nowhere ⁓ w w we were constantly a bit in contention unless the last day it didn't go so well. ⁓ You said Dennis. You mean Dennis Bilton? No, no, no. ⁓ Dennis Stuerman. Dentis. As ⁓ Dutch Dennis. Nobody knows d Dutch Dennis Stuhrman. But I named him now, so everybody will know. Actually a a g a very nice guy. I know him. He's three months older than I am. I ⁓ played a lot. Yeah. Now and then I played with him on ⁓ on ⁓ multiple occasions. Very decent player, but of course ⁓ nobody knows him outside of the outside of the Netherlands. He actually ⁓ he became ⁓ he won the Champions Cup actually this year. Do you know what the Champions Cup is? I think so, yeah. What is it? ⁓ it's like ⁓ The winner of all the different European ⁓ leagues ⁓ plays a ⁓ a match. I think it was in Latvia was in Latvia this year. ⁓ as ⁓ could well be. I I ⁓ let yes, I think you're right. ⁓ yes, and that's and and that's won by also Tim he there played with Tim van der Pavert. And it was a very surprise because actually we are not as the Netherlands we didn't qualify for the tournament because We didn't end up top nine last Europeans, what was a very bad tournament for us as Dutch. ⁓ I didn't realize it was only the top nine. Yeah, but last year there were they we got a wild card. So the team of Timerman, well who won the national championships as a Dutch team, then plays for Nanus and won that cup. So this year that team was ⁓ again Allowed to play ⁓ this tournament. And of course, ⁓ now they send it some six other guys, and then six other guys also won. So while we as Netherlands didn't qualify for this tournament, we won it two years in a row. What is actually also a quite accomplishment for not ⁓ not getting and as winner, you are allowed to come back next year, no matter what. Was it Zimmerman? Did you say? ⁓ Yes, yes. Ch Timmerman played in the Dutch competition two years in a row and won it once. I see. Got it. But he won it on the on a Dutch team called the Lombard. But yeah. If you knew no knew what the British Club the Lombard was, I would be s very surprised. You're well, don't be surprised. But I wanna say one last thing, wrap this up. Your partner who you've been playing with for twenty eight years Also, his now mother in law introduced you to him. Yeah. And like that guy, that guy's been that guy's got long relationships. Yes, yes, because even even with his wife, I think we were thirteen. So we were twelve and thirteen when we started, and I think they started a relationship when he was like sixteen or something like that. So my bridge partnership with him just outlast his relationship with his ⁓ with his wife. Not by much, I can tell you. Well my wife, ⁓ we only together for eleven years, what is totally nothing. So what do you do besides play bridge? I have a bridge school with together with Simon De Weiss. ⁓ so Simon DeVijs and I we are we are live so I live in Amersfoort. ⁓ that is impronounce nearly impronounceable by ⁓ for ⁓ for American people. Actually a very nice city. If you come to the Netherlands and you think okay, I've seen Amsterdam I would advise to you to do one day of Amersford. It's really nice. And Simon DeVice lives in Dorn, what is like a 20-minute drive from my house. So together we have a bridge school and we do ⁓ we we teach basically ⁓ everyone everywhere. So beginners, advanced even but also the most talented youth we we train. So we do everything and that's ⁓ that's also to get we as professional are pretty much ⁓ yeah people have to hire us and we don't know how that will be in ten years. And this gives us more like a more solid way of income. ⁓ so that's what I do. And then of course I'm but that's voluntarily work. I'm in that that athletes committee being chairman talking about ⁓ the qualifications, ⁓ the how the qualifications should be for the Olympics and things like that. What I find very interesting as a British player that they boycott the the Olympics? No, not boycotting, but like n the national organizations and I think ⁓ the USA does the same is like you don't only want to send people who have chances to get medals. You don't want people to send to tournaments just to participate. So usually the the Olympic ⁓ the the the the world federations of different things like swimming or things like that they have ⁓ criteria you have to reach to be able to join the Olympics. And usually the organiz the national organizations of different countries make them even stricter that they are sure like not only that you're going but you have a ⁓ a a real chance to ⁓ compete. And then I'm discussing if that's true or that it should be ⁓ more violent or more restricted and things like that. And this that feels very strange that as a bridge player You are there talking about people that are allowed to go to the Olympic Games. So with a bit of luck, in 2028, I might be able to go to the Olympics because I'm chairman of the ⁓ of the athletes committee. How did you get to be chairman? Nobody else wanted to be chairman. That's that's ⁓ That's basically that's a long story short, but that's basically it. We were looking for because I was only one year on the ⁓ committee, and there are people on there that are like three or four years on the committee. It's ⁓ w way more logical to make them chair. But it takes a lot of time. And I said, Well, I have some time because I'm a bridge player. Yeah. And ⁓ But I said I don't want to do it alone because I think I know myself as a bridge player. Like, yes. Yes, we are sports, a thinking sport. But yeah, for some reason, most people outside of the bridge will just think about old people and not a very serious game. So my my co chairman is ⁓ Josina Koning and she won world gold medal ⁓ four years ago in I thought that was in Japan. the the the games there. What is ⁓ well I say it's now five years ago. And she was unlucky that two years ago she's in ⁓ she's usually the goalkeeper of the field hockey team together with another goalkeeper and they they do 50 50 but at the Olympics they only can have one goalkeeper. She was unfortunately the one who didn't make it to the team. So that's ⁓ So that are things that I'm now hearing about other sports and how they do it with losing, with winning, with getting into focus, ⁓ things like that. I even already gave her a bridge book that Josina, so I hope she will start playing bridge. ⁓ that'd be amazing. But yeah, that's ⁓ that's what I hope that was you want to wrap it up, but I have one question for you. What I still find in intriguing is that in Dutch we have like Four different learning books how you can ⁓ learn bridge. I have wait a minute. So for example, to give an idea, we have this guy, Betty Vesla, world champion in 1993, who writes this book called Bridge in a Flitz. So or shortness like you learn bridge. If you read this book, you know staminacy, everything. But the Dutch bridge variation also has this ⁓ start with a bridge course book, and sometimes Like I'm now teaching the granddaughter of ⁓ Patty. I'm now teaching Bridge. And I'm still looking for a good book. Like I also you ⁓ said to her, ⁓ do tricky bridge. And she did, ⁓ so she knows stuff. But there's not a s nobody could tell me there's a good book for like for beginners, like ⁓ you you learn this book and then that book, and then you know how to play bridge. So I just bought a fr I have a friend who's taken it up, she's playing on Into Bridge. She's playing like pretty regularly actually. ⁓ and I was trying to think and I was asking other people, like on the podcast asking people what you know, who teach beginners and nobody had like a great answer for me. So what I bought her was the Complete Idiot's Guide to Bridge. ⁓ yeah. And the reason the reason I bought that was because that was the book when I started playing that I bought and it was helpful for me and I just thought, you know what, let's try that. So ⁓ I think she likes it. You know, I think it covers like a a lot of ⁓ a lot of ground. ⁓ like stuff that she doesn't know. She says she looks up stuff that she doesn't know in there. And ⁓ the other one of the books that she said that some somebody had told her to get was Twenty Five Conventions You Should Know. And I just thought that was a terrible I thought that was a terrible book. ⁓ because it's so at that's like quite more advanced. Yeah. But anyway, ⁓ That that that's the one I bought most. So basically I think we have to ask this guy, this Barry Western guy, if he can translate his book into English. Because it's basically this book is I I now making ⁓ things about making commercial for a book that's only in Dutch. So that's horrible. ⁓ but basically basically it does it. Start with the point count, the opening, how to play a hand, then how to respond to partners' opening bits, ⁓ leading ⁓ then overcalling 10 Trump opening and ⁓ so Stamen and Jacoby. You read you you have this book, and after that book, I think you are okay to play bridge somewhere. And of course a book is horrible. Otherwise, I would like that like Tricky Bridge if ⁓ Tricky Bridge is pretty i nice. Who actually we made Tricky Bridge? Scott Hopper. Because I think it's a very nice ⁓ credits to him for making such a very nice ⁓ app for Learning Bridge. I interviewed him on here. I'll send you the episode. Yeah. Thanks. So there won't be a quiz on it. For the next time at ⁓ J Jeopardy in the in the States. Boo is the Boo's behind Tricky Bridge. Well, James Holzhauer would get that right. Yeah, he he gets ⁓ he g he gets everything right. ⁓ Hoffer, Hoffer, Scott Hoffer. Hoffer, I think it's our thing. So that's ⁓ that that would be nice or like just a website. If you go to a website and you get just you can just do the the the the the ten basic ⁓ lessons, you get there and you you're finished and if you're quick you can do it in an hour and you can play bridge with everybody, with Stamen and Jacoby. I think that would be great if we have had s had s just something simple like that. But yeah. Then we if I go more into in debt, I'm too late to get my dollar and I get into trouble with a lot of things. And that's not what we want. But this has been a lot of fun. I've laughed a lot. I know a lot of listeners enjoy hearing me laugh. So you brought that out. ⁓ thank you, Tim. It's been a pleasure.