Ep. 112: Emma Kolesnik on Winning the World Mixed Teams

Lero: I did not cry for my own win, but was super, super happy. When I would check the final score on the tablet, we'd been playing against Adam, Kaplan, and Gunto, but when we saw that we had won officially, I definitely did a little like happy jump up and down at the table. When you have equal numbers of friends on both teams, I think the family becomes a deciding factor. It's my great pleasure to welcome ⁓ the winner of the mixed teams at the recent World Bridge series. ⁓ she's from a a bridge family and she married into a bridge family. She's got a great record. ⁓ she was ⁓ won the women's trials ⁓ two years in a row, was USA won three years in a row. And ⁓ lost in the finals of the GNT with her husband. ⁓ but they made up for it in ⁓ in Katowice, Poland and won a world title. Emma Klesnik, it is a pleasure. ⁓ I'm good friends with your with your husband, with your family, with your husband's family. It's a treat to have you here. Thank you so much for joining me. Of course. Happy to be here. Thanks so much for having me. You had some exciting ⁓ you had some exciting, particularly a quarter final match in the in the mix. You won by all of one imp. Yes. The last segment was pr was a little stressful. ⁓ it's a terrible feeling when you know it's like I mean, we were up, I think, wanna say eighteen, something I think yeah, I guess we're up eighteen going into the last segment and then I started out really badly. So I went down in a game I could have made on the first board. And then I was too quick on defense on the second one, let a game through that I should have beaten. And I was like, this is not looking good. Now we're down in this match most likely. ⁓ so never a great position to be in. But luckily we were able to pull through. But I think I probably gave ⁓ my parents a heart attack watching. So they're like Don't let it get so close in the future. But luckily, I think for the rest of ⁓ the tournament we had a little bit more smooth sailing. But we were I think yeah, at in that final segment at our table, I think everyone at the table, maybe Adam the least, was not feeling thrilled. Before looking at the scores, I think everyone felt like they could have done something at least one thing. ⁓ a good amount better. But luckily we were able to to pull through and and win that match, which was really nice. We also were dealing with a time penalty from the second segment of that match. So that was also stressful to where like we were glad we didn't tie or lose by one because we would have had to go into appeals most likely. Or I guess we would have won a tiebreaker, but if we'd lost small, we would have had to be appealing time penalties. So we're very happy we didn't have to get into any of that. So We were we were happy to see the final score. Yeah. Well it was it's one imp per minute over. ⁓ my god. So we had had from the second segment a seven imp time penalty for going seven minutes over. But there'd been a director call 'cause my tablet hadn't been working for a few minutes. So there was like a lot of questions in terms of and then actually we'd gotten we'd appealed it and we'd actually been faster in the card play. by around, I think, five minutes ⁓ than the other pair we were playing against. But we'd been slower in the bidding by 15 minutes. So they assigned us the full penalty time wise. So that was also like kind of crazy where I mean again, any rules and bridge there's there's pros and cons to them. But yeah, so there was a lot of excitement in that match. ⁓ a lot of crazy hands. But so the final margin of one amp includes this seven imp ⁓ time penalty that you got charged. Yeah, exactly. So without the time penalty we would have won by eight, but that's a little less exciting. So yeah. Cause I because I was still in the US and I texted Adam, your husband and partner, ⁓ in the in the in the event and I said I didn't realize that that there was even a penalty. And I said, Is this is this result official? Yeah. And he said, Yeah, I think so. Yeah. No, exactly. We were all like And and it always is a little stressful when you win by one where you're like, Is everything sound? But luckily, you know, at some point we knew and we finally were able to like take a deep breath at dinner it sunk in that we'd we'd actually won. So So at at the World Bridge series they have ⁓ bidding on tablets, which I think everybody thinks is great. Yep. ⁓ but you can also see the result if you choose after the The segment. Yes. Yeah, I always do. You do? Yeah. Wow. I do not have enough self-control to not compare. Maybe if we were running really behind, I just check quickly. But usually I not only check, I look I look through all the scores and write down the the imps from the tablet on my scorecard if my teammates like to keep score. So yeah, I don't have the self control to not check, but ⁓ yeah, it was funny. We were all looking at the score on the tablet right after we'd finished, and then I was not as quick at the arithmetic as Glukowski, but he like immediately was like, ⁓ of course, we only picked up seven you know, he said the margin. I was like, Yes, we did it, it looks like. So he was like only picked up 17 or something faster than I'd been able to to open. So I knew before looking that. That we were in the clear. So you you guys finished second. Yeah. We our table was the slower table. Yeah. And and it doesn't actually say the final result of the it just it just has the imps for each individual board. Yeah, exactly. So it just had the margin for that quarter. And I mean, sometimes the numbers are really, really obvious. I mean, and maybe for I mean, for some people who are great at fast arithmetic, it's obvious anyways, but it wasn't like a thirty-seven to twenty final score. So it wasn't as ⁓ it was I don't know what the final margin was. But yeah, so we had to do some math quickly to see who had who had won. So in this match you're playing against, I mean, Michael Klukowski and his ⁓ his wife, ⁓ Justina Zhmuda. ⁓ I hope I said that right. And I mean Michael Klukowski like is kind of generally, you know, like most people say he's the best bridge player in the world. Yeah, I mean, I'm, you know, have my own opinions on that, but obviously he's obviously amazing. ⁓ super, super talented player. he made a lot of really amazing plays. And she made a lot of really, really amazing plays as well. ⁓ on the first board of that last segment, she found an excellent trick two or three false, I guess, trick two false card against me that made me basically, you know, I mean, I still probably didn't take the optimal line, but it was induced by her. false card at trick two where she I was drawing Trump and they were two two and she had queen and one on I mean she couldn't and so she ⁓ insta played the queen. So now I was thinking, okay, Trumps are three one. I was trying to calculate for that. I trusted her card. ⁓ and so then, you know, of course I look a little silly when I I went down when Trumps were two two 'cause I didn't draw the second Trump immediately. So so yeah, she found a lot of really, really great plays. He definitely, especially during the second segment, found some great leads against me. Got lucky in the third segment. He found some less good leads against me. ⁓ he underled his king he underled his king and one. Saw Queen Jack ten, sixth and dummy opposite ace and one in my hand. So and that was the setting trick. So that was less good. But he found some some amazing leads as well. So yeah, obviously a great player. They both are. So it was a good feeling to beat that team. You talked about ⁓ you were interviewed on Sorry Partner podcast a couple of years ago and I listened to that earlier, and you were talking about pressure in in like these big events. Yeah, it's definitely always there. I think that's something that actually Adam, ⁓ my husband, has helped a lot with is my mindset when I'm playing and the mentality of the game of You know, if you have a bad result, moving on and not getting, you know, trying to kind of detach emotions, especially when you're at the table. And the, you know, kind of philosophy of basically bridge at the table is just a grind. You know, you're just working every hand, just have to keep grinding out every single hand. ⁓ and so really just focusing on that rather than, you know, getting caught up in kind of the stress or are we gonna win? Are we gonna lose? And just really focusing on each hand. So I do think I've made in the last couple of years a lot of progress on that front, but obviously still something that, you know, you sit down for a final segment and you know you're, you know, if you win, you're gonna get a medal in this event. And if you lose, you're you're not. It's, you know, high stakes and you're playing a good pair. So obviously hard to not let the stress get to you a little bit. But luckily I was able to kind of refocus after those first couple boards where I had some nerves or whatever, you know, get to me. ⁓ luckily I think on the Must have been the fourth deal of the set, maybe the third. They bit out to seven spades, which I doubled and she went down two. And I was like, okay, I think we might be we might have some some potential here again. ⁓ you know, if we play carefully and and avoid any other huge losses, which we managed to do. So but yeah. You never know. There's always a lot, as like a lot of people say, there's always a lot more bridge to be played until there's not. But but yeah. And even staying super focused into the last hand, I mean the you know, in this match it was sort of, you know, easy that I had a feeling it the match was coming down to the last board. We're vulnerable at imps. We're having an invitational sequence. ⁓ you know, and I know the margin's super close, so this could easily, you know, be the match. So I locked in and and ended up making not the most losing decision, luckily. ⁓ but sometimes, you know, it's doesn't You have no idea the state of the match, but it's still always super important to treat the the last board of the segment like the first board, even though you wanna know just know the result, but you never know what's gonna where the imps are going. I think there were six imps on the last board. Was that ⁓ yeah, yep, exactly. Yeah. We lost six, but Adam had bid two no invitational and I guess our auction I'd opened a club, Zmuda had doubled. And then Adam bid two clubs, invitational or better in clubs. I believe they bid two spades on my right now. Klukowski did. I passed, pass, and Adam bid two no now pass. And I had 12 with Jack in a club, but three small spades. So my spade holding looked horrible. ⁓ I have, you know, in theory, more points than I've promised. ⁓ we open 11s regularly, but we were vulnerable. So I knew pretty quickly I wasn't gonna bid three-no. ⁓ once I worked that out, you know, I had to construct some hands, but I was like, if we're cold for three-no, Adam needed to have bid three-no. So I worked that out, but ⁓ I thought I had a real problem whether to bid three clubs or not. I thought it rated to be the better contract, but I was also a little worried about wrongsiding the spade suit, if that mattered. And then I also didn't wanna induce a three no bid from partner. So you know, like I didn't wanna confirm, you know, if he thought my bidding three clubs that I rated to now have three clubs or something. Yeah. And now he's able to interpret that, ⁓ we have a running club suit when my jack and one holding I knew was not gonna be what the holding he needed for for three no. So I decided it was safest to just pass. And luckily Two no is only down one, so for lose six, but if we'd been in three no down two, it would have been lose eight to to ⁓ yeah, to lose by one instead. So a lot of crazy hands that segment. Yeah. Man, that's that it's just ⁓ it's amazing how the pressure is in like the the big events, you know, like ⁓ it really is a ma I mean it's not like anything Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know. It's hard to deal with, you know, it's definitely hard to deal with, like 'cause I know that I want to win so badly. And you know, you have the opportunity. This this world championships is only every four years. ⁓ when you know the mixed is really like the main event. ⁓ yeah. So Exactly. So yeah, and I you know, it was it would be such a big deal and I wanted it so badly. And you know, you're so close to getting to at least the medal stage. Yeah, the pressure was definitely there. But ⁓ yeah, w felt great to win and breathe a a sigh of relief that we were getting a medal. So and again, I think we all felt a lot better 'cause there's nothing worse than, you know, if you lose and you really felt like there's hands you could have done a lot better on, which would have definitely been the case had we had we lost. So was was a much better feeling to to win. But I do have sympathy for the other team having been on the other side of a small loss ⁓ or a small margin result. It definitely doesn't feel great when you've had a couple big mistakes or even small mistakes. You know, you're just agonizing. So definitely have empathy for for the Edmonds team after after that last segment. But ⁓ yeah, was very happy we came out on top. A lot of I th I think most of your bridesmaids You you guys got married two years ago two years ago. Yeah, two years or a year. Yeah, like a year and a half or so. Yeah, exactly. I think most of your bridesmaids were not bridge players. Yep. All of them. None of them were bridge players. Yeah, they were all my I decided to go with my college friend group for my bridesmaids at the wedding. So I've taught a couple of them bridge. So my maid of honor, ⁓ Elkie, she knows how to play bridge a little bit, but you know, not in a super serious way. ⁓ back when I was in college, I would run in partnership. Well, I was part of the Harvey Mudd Bridge team or the Claremont College's bridge team. So would do that. But none of my friends would ever come to those meetings. But in collaboration with Mitch Dunnitz, actually, ⁓ I don't know if you know this, but he does a lot of sort of sponsoring for like teaching college kids bridge. And so we'd set up a program where I was running weekly bridge lessons at Script. And so I did get all of my friends to come to those. Those were girls only. ⁓ and we're we're a fun time. We were yeah, we had free food and stuff for people. So I think that was pretty motivating. But I did manage to get all of my all of my bridesmaids to come to those lessons, but I don't think any of them have really ⁓ stuck with it since then, unfortunately. But you never know, maybe later in life. But yeah. So now the format is Mitch is actually paying people to not only teach, but also for the students who are learning to Yeah, I think I think he was doing that back then. I think it was I set it up to where I think if they came to all four lessons, I paid them. He was down to pay people per lesson, but I was like, I think we're gonna get more seriousness if we actually pay people at the end. So I think that was the format we did. I don't I can't remember the exact amount, but it was maybe something like twenty bucks a lesson for everyone. So people were definitely happy to happy to to sign up for those. But it was fun. I think it's such a funny thing. Like I imagine explaining to your parents, like if you're the, you know, the the the muggle as Adam Voldowski calls him. Adam Vodowski's a bridge player and he uses the Harry Potter term. ⁓ Like, what is it like telling your parents, you know, like I'm getting paid to learn bridge? Like it seems like so nefarious to me ⁓ to think of as a as an outsider. No, exactly. I think there definitely was some of that. And even people were like, Is this a scam? Like I think if they hadn't known me super well, like again it was mostly people that I knew and I went to a small school, but people were like, What do you mean you're gonna pay me to like learn how to play this game? And a lot of people had heard of it 'cause their parents or grandparents had played. ⁓ so, you know, they were interested in learning, but it was definitely a funny, funny dynamic. ⁓ for sure. But everyone that had told their parents or whose parents' grandparents played were definitely really excited that their kids were getting, you know, I mean, not necessarily getting paid, but learning how to play the game. Cause I think it's one of those things that, you know, as a grandparent, you're like, ⁓ you know, you should learn how to play this game. And then, you know, the college kid is like, What are you talking about? Why would I learn to play this? So it's exciting when they're like self motivated and just do it. ⁓ definitely. So the reason I brought it up is your college friends is how did they find out? Like did you text your your girlfriends or or like what 'cause it 'cause they don't play. I mean, obviously I I I guess they probably most of them know you're in Poland, for example. Yeah, we all still have each other's locations. So they we could they can track me around the world as I as I do my bridge traveling. but I think my mom actually texted most of them. That was nice. So yeah, and then I think the ones my mom didn't text, I like texted or sent some like message to ⁓ a few days later. But yeah, they were all super excited for me, ⁓ for sure. Did you cry? ⁓ I actually don't think I did cry, but I was definitely like super, super excited. It was really cute. ⁓ Finn started crying a little bit, but it was a very like ⁓ like a moment of parallel because I remember at his first really, really big win ⁓ when he won the Solo, I remember like running I'd been at dinner and it was when you still could watch on VGraph with no delay. So this was the last time they did that. ⁓ and so we're at dinner with a group and I have, you know, BBO up open on my phone and it looked totally hopeless for him to win. ⁓ and then, you know, with a couple boards remaining, they kept picking up imps, picking up imps, and it's like all of a sudden, like, okay, you know, it's getting quite close. ⁓ but then they needed, I think, a game swing on the last board. And It didn't look possible for them to go down in game. but the guy took kind of an unusual line and ended up going down, which was the game swing Finn's team needed to win this match. ⁓ and I remember like we left dinner, ran over. So that I actually did cry for. I was so excited. ⁓ and it was also just awesome seeing, you know, because I I've been long term friends with Kevin as well. So was really, really great getting to see that. ⁓ And celebrate that with them. But I did not cry for my own win, but was super, super happy. I definitely when I when I would check the final score on the tablet, we'd been playing against Adam, Kaplan, and Gunto. But ⁓ I when we saw that we like had won officially, I definitely did a little like happy, happy jump up and down at the table. ⁓ and it was fun because all my family was standing right outside the room too, and and we're all there to to start cheering us on and and Kaplan was really happy for us ⁓ as well. Obviously, he's also a longtime friend at this point. So even though I think he was hoping for the other way, we were all really happy to be ⁓ in that first and second place in the event. Yeah, you played against ⁓ your husband's brother, Zach Rosak, in the ⁓ yeah in the finals. Yeah, that was definitely an adventure. yeah, we love Zach, obviously. ⁓ and I'm super close with Olivia as well. She's great, you know, plays amazing. I've been really impressed with her game. recently. ⁓ that's been great 'cause I've just known her since she was so young. But ⁓ yeah, playing against Zach is always an adventure. but it was it was nice to to come ahead in those couple segments we played against them. And yeah, you know it's going well when Zach has to get up from the table for a couple water breaks. ⁓ That was it's always good. ⁓ Did he like get make Olivia get up too or just himself? Well, there was there was once where he he suggested she take a walk too, so there was a lot of breaks. Luckily we all play fast, but yeah, it was it was tough. There was there was some tough hands, but you know, I was really happy we I got some some nice defenses right, but it was I remember I can't remember which if it was the second or third segment, but The last board turned into a bit of a comedy of errors with me and Olivia because Zach. So Zach makes a lead. And at first glance, it looks like this lead has just basically given away the contract. So I had Ace King Queen Jack, fifth of spades, opposite three small. And as long as spades are no worse than four-one, I just have 10 tricks at this point, or maybe 11. But I'd had Ace King Jack of clubs. So if I'd had a club loser, or I think clubs were four two offside. So if he hadn't let a club, I was probably going down. ⁓ maybe. So Zach's like raging at trick one. He was so unhappy. He's like, I can't believe I I made another lead like this. It just, you know, he so he's kind of going off. And then, you know, so I kind of look at the hand. I play the first Trump and he shows out. So Trumps are five zero. So and at this point now, because of the lead, I still I have the pitch I need to where I actually can still make it. I'd had a whole line planned out ⁓ where I like draw drew four Trump and I was just gonna always play another club to hand, cash the third club winner and pitch a heart. But there's so much commotion going on at the table after I cross to with the club back to my hand. I'm like, wait a second, maybe it's actually better to like ruffalo club was not better. ⁓ and at that point I actually was down. ⁓ but again, like there was so much commotion happening from Zach's side of the screen that I don't think anyone could really focus on any trick to be had. So Needless to say, the the defense, you know, when the smoke cleared, I ended up with eleven tricks, but it was definitely turned into like, you know, you're like everyone's like, What's even going on? ⁓ yeah, it was a lot. But luckily, you know, all through all the other boards at least was able to stay ⁓ decently well focused. But yeah, it's always like exciting when when Adam and Zach are at the same table. So or just maybe anytime Zach's at the table, things get a little exciting. I mean, yeah, he's obviously an amazing player, so ⁓ and so is Olivia. So they're a tough pair, but ⁓ luckily we had some some luck and ⁓ winning decisions on our side. I'll say that. This this has gotta be though the most consequential match that they've played against each other. I mean, they were partners at the beginning of their bridge career. ⁓ they like ⁓ you know, only in the last maybe five or so years did they stop playing together. and I mean it w what was the what was the dynamic between them like when they you know, when you guys started to realize, you know, obviously you're on opposite sides of the bracket and they beat the the team that qualified first, you guys qualified second. Yeah. But they beat the the number one qualifier in the semifinals. Like what was that all kinda Yeah. I mean obviously yeah. ⁓ you know we were really excited for them. I think we would have been in a lot of ways happy for whoever won that match 'cause it was all of our friends playing each other. So the team that had finished ahead of us was Debbie and Michael and Kevin and Amber who ⁓ Amber and I, you know, had played together a lot in the past and then obviously still played together sometimes and, you know, have known Kevin for forever. And ⁓ Debbie and Michael have both been mentors of mine. So obviously longtime friends. ⁓ so, you know, always happy when they have success. And then a lot of our friends on, you know, Zach's team, I think probably we were rooting for for Zach's team a little bit just because you know, obviously it's Adam's brother and when you have equal numbers of friends on both teams, I think de family becomes a deciding factor. ⁓ so we were really, really happy for them to to get that win. It was super exciting. And then, you know, just hope for a friendly, friendly final match, ⁓ with some excitement, which we definitely I think accomplished both of those. Overall the match was very friendly and fun. and and definitely had some exciting borders as also We were talking about your brother earlier, Finn Klesnik, who won the Soloway. ⁓ I talked to him yesterday in preparation for this and he said that ⁓ so you're six years older than he is. You're six years older than your brother Finn. And he said that Bridge helped you two become great friends. Yeah, it's definitely true. ⁓ I think, you know, obviously when you have that big of an age gap, growing up. It's, you know, for most of your young life, you don't have that much in common. ⁓ you know, when I was in high school, he was still in elementary school. So you're just at really different stages of your life. ⁓ but it was so exciting when, you know, I'd in high school and I guess, you know, I could think my parents taught me bridge when I was like six, seven, eight, like pretty young. ⁓ and Finn as well. But for most of, you know, Finn's life once he knew the game, he actually didn't like to play bridge at all. It was it's like a funny joke looking back. But it we would be like, ⁓ Finn, can we just play a couple hands of bridge? And he's like, I'll play any other game. Just not bridge. Any other game you want to play, I'll play, but not bridge. So it would be like pulling teeth, trying to get him to play like one or two hands. ⁓ and then When I was in high school, I'd go to the youth NABCs since our district would give us some money to go. And my par my dad was usually playing anyway. So ⁓ I played in a couple of those. And Finn at some point was like, wait a second, Emma's getting paid to go do this. Well, I want the money too. So that was finally what what pushed him over the edge. So we actually ended up playing together at ⁓ my last youth NABC. So the summer between my senior year of high school and my freshman year college since I was 18. So that was my last year I could play the youth NABC. ⁓ we played together and it was really fun, especially that was when they still had the old schedule. So we played in all of the midnight games. And I think that was also a big shifting factor of like, wait a second, bridge can be super, super fun and social. And you know, you had all these other kids playing and it was way more casual and just, you know, a great environment. So I think that helped kind of Kick started off a lot. and then once I got to college, my college had this great bridge team and it was close by to where my family lived. I mean, a couple hours, but in LA, it's close enough. ⁓ so Finn would come meet us with my dad at a lot of these tournaments, or they'd come pick us up and drive whoever wanted to to come to the local sectionals and regionals. so you know, Finn and I just got way, way closer. and that was kind of the start for both of us getting really serious about bridge. So it was a really, really fun time and definitely great for us to now, you know, be super, super close friends and, you know, have this great hobby in common. So it's a great story overall. He said that you guys were really competitive at first with it. Yeah, I think that's definitely true. I mean, I think in some ways maybe him more than me, but also, you know, we both I mean, I think anyone who's successful at bridge and loves the game likes to win and has a competitive streak. I don't think you can pick, you know, to spend most of your free time playing a competitive game if you don't have a competitive streak and like to win. So we definitely take all games very seriously. ⁓ and I think there is that aspect. But I also think, you know, I was always really, really excited for his success. and You know, I think eventually he got to the point where he was also excited if I had any success, but maybe that took a little bit longer ⁓ to happen. So Finn told me that Adam asked him if ⁓ if he could ask you out. He asked for his permission. Yeah. And and Finn said that that was fine, but he didn't think that ⁓ he had a chance with you. Yeah. I know those Finn had a great speech ⁓ at our engagement party in Austin where he told the story and it was really, really funny. ⁓ was very cute. But yeah, it was it was kind of funny because I hadn't known Adam so well through Bridge. I mean, he was already out of the sort of youth program by the time I was getting involved in it. So, you know, I was going to the, you know, junior world championships and stuff on the ⁓ the girls' team. for the young women's team and Finn was on those teams, or not the, you know, in different events, obviously. But ⁓ and so I'd known Zach because we'd had a few mutual friends from college. And then also he was playing those events. And so I knew of Adam and then I'd see him at some tournaments, but he was mostly in the kind of adult professional bridge world and and I wasn't. But he had been Finn's bridge mentor for his youth group for at least a couple of years. So in the like Civi and the junior USB C program, if you're one of the teams that's gonna compete, you have to do, I think, weekly mentor sessions with ⁓ a like expert volun or world class volunteer, which is an awesome program that we both enjoyed. So yeah, Adam had been Finn's group's mentor. So like during all of COVID and stuff. So I remember like hearing them on calls sometimes, but yeah, I hadn't connected as much directly with Adam. And then after the pandemic and after a couple of tournaments when, you know, I was working full time professionally and was out of college. ⁓ Adam and I sort of got to know each other a little bit better and hit it off. and yeah, and I mean at first I wasn't totally sure I wanted a serious relationship. So Finn's Finn's doubts might not have been so unfounded, but ⁓ ultimately I just always loved spending time with Adam and, you know, he was so easy to to be around and Yeah, I mean he's an amazing, amazing guy. Obviously I married him. So ⁓ yeah, the rest is is kind of history, but eventually, ⁓ yeah, we kind of realized, yeah, c wouldn't want to spend any time without each other. So but yeah, what's funny. Adam sometimes can be a little bit of a grumpy partner with me. I think with everyone occasionally. I'm not saying I'm at your level, but but does he Like it's do you prefer playing with screens with Adam? I definitely do prefer I mean, I in general prefer playing with screens, so it's not just with Adam, but definitely with Adam as well. ⁓ but I think also, yeah, I mean everyone knows there can be some some difficulty occasionally playing with your spouse. In general, Adam and I do amazing. I think we both really love playing with each other and it's so fun to do well together and you know, we overall do great as a partnership, so it's it's really fun, but I definitely ⁓ it's very important for me for my partner to be a good partner. And I also really try to be, and that's something I pride myself on, is that I think I am a really good partner at the table usually. so we've definitely gotten into a couple of, you know, arg I won't even say arguments exactly, but I've definitely gotten upset a couple of times because, you know, when he's maybe gotten a little grumpy or Or made like one too many comments or faces. his favorite is like, I didn't even say anything, but I'm like, Yeah, but you made a face that I could see. So you know, or something. Or when we first started playing, I remember, you know, ⁓ before he kind of realized what a big deal it was to me. There was a couple of hands where he couldn't really figure out I was declaring and he couldn't figure out why I'd fit it the way and the play wasn't going as expected. And he'd make some like hand gesture I could see under the screen, like what's going on? ⁓ and I'm like, you can't do that either. Anything. I was like, I know, but you know, you can't you can't do any of the above. But I think we've definitely worked out all of that and now just have fun together. So but I mean, I think again it's it's one of those things where when you really want to win and you have that competitive drive, sometimes it can be difficult to maintain perfect composure. and you know, nobody's perfect in that regard. And I I certainly have had my moments as well. Adam laughs now that that I probably make more comments at the table than he does. But ⁓ again, not very many, but n maybe a couple. But ⁓ so I definitely have a lot of empathy, but was that was definitely, you know, the cause for a couple of arguments throughout our many years together. How many times do you think you had to tell him to stop with the hand gestures before he he was able? Luckily only once. Only once I was Yeah. Please learn. Just took one conversation. That's impressive. Yeah. He said some of the other stuff has maybe been a couple of conversations. He said that you had some ⁓ you had at least one offer to play professionally in the in the mix, world championships, the one that you won. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I did. ⁓ You know, it's always a balance deciding when you're gonna play professionally versus not. and always have to kind of make those decisions. I mean, for me, I am really lucky that I have a full time job outside of bridge. So I don't need the income always. ⁓ obviously it's nice to have and you know, in certain situations, you know, I do play professionally a decent amount, but ⁓ always have to balance that. But ultimately, It is important, I think, and really fun to get to sometimes play on teams where you sort of just have a really great chance of winning. And obviously, you know, at least on paper, those odds are always a little bit better when you're not playing with a client on the team. ⁓ not always. It really depends on the situation. But in this case, you know, maybe there were certain dollar amounts I would have I would have taken instead of playing with Adam, but the offers weren't anything like that. So it was it was pretty easy to just say, you know, that I was Excited to play with Adam and and we had such great teammates too. Roy and Sabine are are awesome and we had a a blast playing with them. And obviously I've respected their game and they're a great Knicks pair ⁓ for a while. So I knew that was going to be a really, really fun opportunity. We'd we'd eventually really wanted to play six handed so that we could have more of a break. ⁓ because we all kind of enjoy the vacation element of some of the bridge tournaments as well. But ultimately, you know, we just didn't end up finding another pair. ⁓ And it worked out. So can't can't complain too much. And the schedule really wasn't so bad. I mean, I think you play fifty-six boards a day, so four sets of fourteen. So it's not so strenuous, I think, as a four-handed team. There's other formats that I think are are harder to manage with that. And it's faster too, because the bidding is on tablets, so you don't have this screen going back and forth, and you don't have to take your bidding cards up and the score and is all like ⁓ Exactly. automated and stuff. Yeah, absolutely. yeah, and not having to turn in the scores so you can, you know, everything. Yeah. Yeah. The tablets are are much, much, much better. I hope. At some point the A CBL is able to follow suit. I mean, I really do prefer playing with screens and at high level tournaments and as well as the the tablets. I think they're both huge improvements to the the quality of the game. So it's always fun. What's your prediction on when the A C B L switches to tablets? ⁓ it's I mean, I I don't know. I mean, I have a lot of faith in Bronya. She's awesome and I think is doing really, really great work. So I'm so happy that she's ⁓ at the helm. I just I have a lot of respect for her decision. So I think that we'll see a lot of stuff happening a lot sooner than it might have ⁓ with someone else in that leadership position. And then, you know, I think it is hard with the A CBL where a lot of the events are much, much larger. So It's just is more of a financial consideration when you have so many more teams and events where you can't have everything with screens day one, which makes sense. But I hope eventually at least in the, you know, events where at some point you get to a day with screens that then anytime they're doing the screens, they have tablets. I don't think we're so far away from that, but you know, it might be a little while. But I mean, I'm excited to see how it goes in I think it's fall of twenty twenty eight. So I mean still a little bit away, but I think that's when they're gonna do the first trial national with no regional events. ⁓ so I think we could see some big changes, especially if that's a success and you know, maybe implementing more screens and some of this stuff. So Yeah. Time will tell. And they have changed the format in the in the Swiss so that everybody plays the same board. Which I think is a big improvement. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a huge improvement. I mean, obviously there's some more concerns with, you know, overhearing results at tables, but I think the trade off, in my opinion, is so worth it because it's just it's so much more fun to be able to have hand records of all the, you know, deals played. It's a lot more fair, especially in a Swiss format when everyone's playing the same boards. And yeah, it's so much more fun at dinners to actually be able to post more about all playing the same hand. So That's been a huge improvement that I think is great. So I think it helps having like someone like Bronya who plays bridge seriously. Her partner's also s you know, Billy is also Billy Cohen is also someone who plays bridge professionally. So I think they have that perspective and she has that perspective of those kind of changes that really matter for, you know, the quality of the experience for a lot of professionals and and expert players playing the game. Yeah, I think if if I were in your shoes and I got invited to play the mixed with Roy and Sabina, who are past champions of the event, they won it in in twenty fourteen when I first played in my first world championships. And ⁓ with Adam as your partner who won the open world championship, the Bermuda last year. I mean that's that's a t that's gotta be some decent money to turn that down. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That was my my opinion as well. And obviously, you know, was was pretty easy decision. I mean, and we had a really, really fun time. It's always a great combination when you can have a lot of success with a team, but also just a lot of fun on a personal level. We had a great time at dinners and all, you know, really enjoyed teaming together. So it was great on both levels. So it was super, super fun. Glad I made that decision for sure. I I played the South Americans last year with Roy and Sabina as our teammates and ⁓ I was I it would really I I mean it's not that I mean it's a continental championship, you know? And I was really hoping we could get it done. I got to play with Joe Grew and unfortunately ⁓ unfortunately we lost in the quarterfinals. So ⁓ they were fun to team up with ⁓ and we and they're and they're really into golf too. ⁓ they've gotten really into golf recently. I know Sabina broke ⁓ I think she broke ninety recently for the first time. So I'm like You had a team. Yeah, because Joe I know as well, also super into golf. So the whole team you had some some common interest there. Yeah, it was funny. We were a lot of times at dinners we'd see them like following some of the different golf matches happening and checking the scores. And I don't know if they were doing betting or not, but it's always funny. Did you guys have dinner every night together when you during the Not all of the nights, but a decent amount of the nights we ended up doing like either you know, the four of us are group dinner, which is always really fun when you have that kind of dynamic of like the friendship element as well. ⁓ so what was it like? You were you were in ⁓ you were in in Denmark when Adam won the Bermuda Bowl ⁓ last year. I you were playing in the Yeah, I was playing in the women's. Unfortunately we didn't have as much ⁓ yeah success as we were hoping. We had a good team but couldn't couldn't quite make it out of the ⁓ the round robin stage, which is obviously a bit disappointing. But But was really, really fun to be able to follow Adam's team and root for him. And obviously, you know, that whole team are good are great friends of mine. You know, is it was a really, really fun team to to root for. ⁓ you know, I joke it's not that often you get to root for your husband and your brother and then also some of your like, you know, closest friends in the bridge world. ⁓ so yeah, it was great. Yeah, we're really close with Adam Kaplan and then ⁓ Johnny Heard as well is is a great longtime friend at this point. So ⁓ and then now, you know, Eddie and ⁓ Kevin Bathurst also. I mean, just a really, really nice team of great guys. So it was really, really fun to root for them and ⁓ yeah, and to see them, you know, have such a great run of it was awesome. I think it was a long time coming for a lot of people on the team getting a a gold at a world championship. So was super awesome. Yeah, like Finn. Yeah, exactly. Years and years we've been waiting. Yeah. What ⁓ where were you watching the the last day of the finals? I think I was mostly watching on my phone. So I was still playing. ⁓ but luckily the yeah, we were we played all throughout, so we were in the like, you know, whatever. consolation, consolation event there was at that point. So some bam at that point. But luckily it was a half day of play. So ⁓ for the second half of the match I was just watching on my phone. And then once they had a really good third quarter, ⁓ we were optimistic. And so but during the final segment, obviously, you know, you're waiting and Amber, Lynn and I ⁓ during the trials when it looked like they were gonna win, had gone to the store to pick up flowers for everyone and, you know, some champagne and stuff to help celebrate. ⁓ but you obviously have to wait till it's a lock to like buy anything because you don't want to jinx anything. ⁓ so we were at the store, like watching on our phones with all the stuff in our basket already, like waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting until it was a lock and we could finally check out and head back to the playing site. But Luckily it did not come down to the last board, so we were we were able to to make our purchases and and make it back in time to to meet everyone with, you know, drinks in hand and and flowers and everything. So it was great. And Finn and and Adam Kaplan were there too, obviously, since they weren't playing the last quarter. So they were getting ready in their ⁓ this is in Denmark. Yeah, in Denmark, yeah. Yeah, I was I was ⁓ It was it was cool for me because I played the Transnationals last year with your dad. And and he wa he was he was always, you know, letting me know like how it was going. So it was really fun to be able to see it ⁓ through his eyes. And I actually I ended up leaving a day before 'cause it looked like there 'cause, you know, Adam and Finn's team was ahead by so much after the first day that I thought it was Yeah. Yeah and then I was at the at the like my connecting airport, I forget where I connected to fly back to the United States and the match got tight and I was like, ⁓ man, I'm I'm sorry that I left. Yeah, there was one really stressful segment. I think segment two maybe of the of the second day of the final was definitely not fun to be watching. I remember watching a couple of the boards ⁓ during lunch and Yeah, I won't I won't mention any. I think Finn might be mad if I mention any of the particularly stressful ones, but there was definitely a couple where I was watching and sometimes you can kind of it's like a a car crash where you can sort of see it in slow motion, the like possibility for a really bad result. ⁓ you know, there was there was one hand where Finn had to find what you know, like a lot of hands, if you're looking at all four hands, the killing defense is very easy and findable. And I was the only one at the table that was like, I don't know that it's necessarily gonna be found. And I was really worried that everyone's like, no, no, no, of course, of course, there's no way to get this wrong. And I was like, if you're looking if you're looking at it from his perspective, there is a way to get this wrong. You know, maybe he should still get it right, but it's definitely not like auto a hundred percent. And sure enough, he actually he didn't end up finding ⁓ the play. And that was one of many boards where It was like tough to watch. But luckily, ⁓ they were able to pick up a lot in the third segment. And so it was a little less stressful, ⁓ watching that fourth segment of the day. I've never really watched Geograph where I've been ⁓ I've been that invested, you know, like where it's my brother and my husband. Like I I it must be you know, I've watched some geograph like in the trials in the US. We have when I was on six handed team. But I didn't really like to watch the view graph when my teammates were playing. It was kinda too too like not ag I didn't anyway. It's not relaxing. It's good to relax. I think when you're six handed and and watching your teammates, it's it's sometimes better to just relax and and not be so focused and vested, you know, your mental energy, especially if you still have to play later that day or, you know, even just playing the next day any more hours of bridge spent watching definitely take a mental toll. So But yeah, it's it's definitely true that it was fun for me in this case, both during the open trials and the world championships, actually getting to to watch a lot of the hands was super invested, but ⁓ you know, was able to mostly keep cool. I mean, obviously it's it was from the kibbutzer perspective better at the trials because you have an a hundred percent accurate play record and results record. So There's no question of, ⁓ do you think this is a view graph operator error? Do you think the score's right? There's no question versus, you know, anytime a view graph operator is actually keeping track of the play, there is some question. But again, another nice thing at least of the tablets being used is that when you're looking at the running scores, those are at least, you know, basically confirmed and that everyone at the table had to accept it. So you at least have that. So ⁓ so your dad and I ⁓ we became we first kinda started hanging out in ⁓ in Tromso at the European Championships which was in twenty fifteen. ⁓ we like hiked up the there was like a hike ⁓ where there was a tram that went up and Tromso is in is in Norway and it's i it's inside the Arctic Circle. So the European every other year the European championships are open to anybody. And ⁓ I I just thought it was so cool because because we're in the Arctic circle, you know, like when am I gonna and the the sun doesn't go down. ⁓ but you were there, ⁓ I understand, ⁓ not playing bridge. Yeah, not playing bridge. Yeah, it was kind of our family tradition for many, many years before Ben or I started playing where wherever the open Europeans would be, my dad would go play and we'd my parents are both professors, so it's great. They have the summers off. So we would plan a whole family vacation around the region that the tournament would be in. So that summer we went to Tromso, ⁓ which was really amazing. I mean, that area is so beautiful with the sun being up all day and some great hiking and just it the whole area looks like a postcard, literally. It's it's kind of hard to believe with your eyes. ⁓ But we ended up doing traveling to basically all of Scandinavia. ⁓ so we went to ⁓ I mean we went to some other places in Norway. ⁓ we went to Sweden, Finland, Denmark, ⁓ Estonia and I feel like I'm leaving a place out, but I'm not sure which one it is. But yeah, so we did we did I think like a month and a half total in all those areas. So which is amazing. Yeah. Super awesome. So and yeah, and some some previous summers. Did you rent? Yeah, we rented we rented a car. ⁓ so we mostly got around driving. So that was kind of our our go-to with ⁓ all four of us. Or actually my grandmother was there as well for the later part of the trip. She came with Finn. So I don't remember if Finn was in Trompso or not, but ⁓ according to your dad yesterday. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So Finn and my grandma flew later and met us met up with us right after Trompso, ⁓ I think in Oslo. So we Rented a car, went all around. We went on ⁓ like an overnight cruise, I think, for one of the trips over the the water. So but mostly with the car or would you rent a new car? Yeah, we drove we drove the car on to the ferry. So yeah. So usually with the car. So in Europe, can you rent a car like in in Norway and drop it off in Finland? I don't remember we might have dropped it off in Norway again. We might have finished off the same place, but actually I think that you can return it in another country. Cause I think a lot of times it's just based on the company that you rent it with. So how many countries have you been to? Do you know? Total, I don't know an exact number. ⁓ I'm pretty sure I've been to almost every country in Europe. ⁓ which was cool. We did one year. Yeah. So however many that is. So at least at least 30 countries in your if there's 34, at least 30. There's I think there's a couple I haven't been to. ⁓ I haven't been to Switzerland, but I think otherwise, at least I don't it's possible we drove through Switzerland, but I don't I don't remember it. ⁓ and then I've been to all of North Amer the American like I've been to Canada and Mexico and then a good number of Central American countries. ⁓ I've been to a couple in South America. And then I've been to Morocco in Africa. I'd like to go to some more countries in Africa. I've only been to China in Asia, so I would like to do some more trips there and then have yet to go to Australia or New Zealand. So but I think Australia, New Zealand, and then ⁓ Antarctica are the last continents I have to I have to hit. So I've been to four continents or five continents. Yeah, I haven't been Antarctica's the only one I haven't been to. Yeah. It's a little harder last last year with Roy and Sabina. Yeah. Yeah, I want to go there though. I mean that's so cool that you guys would would do that. Like ⁓ that's so different from like we did one R V trip across the country when I was a kid. We owned an R V for a period of time and we did like a month, like half Halfway out, half like north out, south back. And it's like so much in like the lore of our family, like this R V trip. But you guys sounds you got and you guys are doing it abroad too. I mean, that's it's really amazing. Yeah. And and really amazing family memories. And, you know, obviously just yeah, we got to do so many cool things growing up. ⁓ you know, both going through other parts of Europe for the other Europeans and and other family trips. So we always had a blast. And and it's great too, because my parents are ⁓ great at planning trips and doing research. And they'd always let me or Finn plan a couple of days as well if we wanted to. So, but you know, we always we're great at doing a lot of different cultural things as well as some some of the outdoor nature things. So really got a good appreciation for a lot of that growing up. So very lucky to have such great parents. Because when I go I mean, I love traveling for bridge, but it's kinda like perfect for me 'cause I I don't actually really want to do anything other than play bridge. I'm not like a sightseer. ⁓ but like, you know, you get the culture, you get to eat, and then you play bridge. What did did you do anything in ⁓ did you go to like Auschwitz, for example? When we were in ⁓ no, we didn't get a chance, basically because we were playing four handed and then I actually wasn't able to take too much time off of work, so I We flew out. We arrived the day before we started playing. And then I left just a couple days after I finished playing. So we didn't I didn't get a chance to do much sightseeing. I did make it to a couple museums in the area. So I do I love art. So I I always try to make a point to go to at least a couple museums and then obviously you get to go to a lot of great restaurants. sometimes do a little bit of shopping and stuff like that and walk around the city. So But definitely, yeah, that's been one big change I think in Adam's life since meeting me is before before me. I don't think he he would do anything but restaurants, hotel, and bridge on any of these trips. And now I'm like, Okay, honey, we're gonna go to this museum. Should be really fun. ⁓ you know, and taking him to do some more like intellectual cultural activities, which I think is ⁓ has been a change, but but a welcome change I think overall. So but definitely a shift for him. Yeah. Roy and Sabina are pretty locked-owned restaurants. So ⁓ they're they're definitely they're good for that. Yeah, they were perfect for that. Yeah, I was awesome. They did they did a lot of research and found a lot of great places. So we ate very, very well. So we're very lucky and yeah, definitely we'll be getting all of my restaurant recs from her in the future. So I didn't realize that ⁓ your so your team name in this mix was called Ticket to Ride. And I didn't realize your dad told me that that's a that's a game that you guys really enjoy playing. I didn't re I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah. So we love all we love a lot of different games. So not just Bridge. ⁓ my family. I mean, especially since, you know, Finn for the first bit of time wouldn't even play Bridge. We definitely have done a lot of other board and card games as well. And then with Adam too, he loves games and so does his family. So that's been something we really spend a lot of time and have bonded over. ⁓ And Ticket to Ride being one of those. I remember we first played it, I think with Zach and then Adam's friend Ula, who's from Copenhagen or from Denmark, and a group, I think at her birthday party. So and it was funny, Adam and I were on a team together and it was both of our first time playing it. And we ended up winning. But it was funny because I was really like not paying attention for the first little bit of the game and Adam was doing it. And then I don't know if you know this about Adam, but unless he has like poker to keep him up or a big win. He's out around like 9 p.m. He goes to bed super early. So unless he has something specific to keep him up, there's just no way. And he he'll fall asleep like wherever he is. ⁓ so around 9 p.m rolled around, we were still playing and he's like, okay, you're taking over Emma and then ends up we ended up winning. And so, you know, that kind of got us into it and it was a fun game. We were talking to Royan Sabine, trying to decide on a team name and we were all talking about how much we liked board games and I was like, what about Ticket to Ride? And so that ends up being the the winner. ⁓ and it was fun because they actually brought Ticket to Ride to play. And so we did manage to at least the day after the event get one game of Ticket to Ride in. But we were a little focused all the rest of the day. So didn't have time before that to to get a game in. But yeah, it is a great game. So if you haven't played, definitely worth it is it it's a team game or It's actually it's individual. So the general premise is each person is kind of their own like railroad company building different railroad tracks to connect different routes. So at the beginning of the game, you pick up all these different route cards. So like in the there's a US version, there's a Europe version. So in the US version, you might get Los Angeles to New York. And then you have to build a route to get from Los Angeles to New York and then If you, you know, there's all the scoring that goes into it. But that's kind of the general premise is connecting your and building your railroad. ⁓ so it is a really fun game. There's an app for it on your phone that Adam and I were playing, but any any game aside from bridge, if you play it on your phone and play too much of it, you just get sick of it immediately because, you know, they they stop being so interesting or you're winning every single time you play, and so it gets a little bit boring. ⁓ So that had happened to us with Ticket to Ride where we were just playing too much of it and just got totally sick of it. This was now, I guess, a year and a half back. So we'd taken a long break from the game, but was fun to actually play it again and maybe we we will play more in the future now. But ⁓ definitely yeah, had to delete the app from our phone. was not stopped being fun. When you guys get together as a family, you must not play bridge. You must play like ⁓ other Yeah, we tend to play other games, but we will usually get in a couple hands of Bridge. I mean, we do all really like the game, but it's always a little bit we have to draw for partners and stuff. ⁓ but we do play sometimes a couple hands, but we like Caton a lot. That's always a fun one. So we we always get at least a couple of games of Caton in nowadays. ⁓ trying to think the other popular ones. We learned n surprisingly not to do cooperative games. ⁓ At first we were like, we're all so competitive. It's such a good idea to play cooperative games and not have, you know, this horrible comp competition. ⁓ but actually it was much worse because what happens is with cooperative games, you all win or you all lose. And so if you all lose, it's a blame game. It was this was your fault. You should have figured this out. How could you not have figured this out? So And that was a much, much worse dynamic for my family. So we went back to competitive games only. So yeah. ⁓ Not keep it peaceful. Your dad said something about or maybe it was Finn. Like when you guys played in the midnights, like the way that you lined up was like the was so that the least likely to have, you know, like ⁓ like as a family, the least likely to have people get upset with each other. Yeah. Exactly. No, there's always Yeah, playing with your family is always like a a special dynamic, especially with my family where I'm lucky we're all so close and there's like a high degree of unconditional love to where you don't have that worry of like, ⁓ well if I yell at this person, you know, they're never gonna speak to me again. You know, some of these consequences aren't there and you're so close. And also, again, I mean Being close, you know, you can read people's expressions immediately. So you know, you know, I remember like anytime I played with Finn, I couldn't watch his face at all when we were playing because I'd know immediately, like, ⁓ he was not happy with that play that I made. so there's definitely all these other like layers and dynamics I think that go into playing with your family members, especially when you're close. But we've luckily been able to work through most of them and and all enjoy playing at this point. I think maturity helps with that. But ⁓ But yeah, it was definitely a possi a real possibility that there would be some some heated emotions. The last few fall nationals, you've been playing ⁓ the risinger, I think, with your dad. Yeah, yeah, which has been really fun. ⁓ ⁓ were you gonna say sorry? No, is that is that the plan ⁓ for San Diego? So ⁓ I do always try to get like at least one event in with my dad. I believe we're gonna play the first weekend pair event. ⁓ I'm actually leaving the Fall Nationals a little bit early this year because my mom coordinated a yoga retreat for her birthday. So I'm going on that instead of playing the risinger this year. So ⁓ and maybe the break will be good. We had the first year we played the risinger, we had a really great run where we ended up making the third day and coming in eighth. ⁓ and we probably could have I mean, I didn't play particularly well the third day. I was so exhausted, my stamina was not quite where it is now with the game. So, you know, could have maybe potentially done even better, but was still an awesome, awesome ⁓ finish for the first time playing it with with my dad and that team. But we haven't had quite as much luck the next couple of years we played. ⁓ We've been like the first non qualifier two years in a row where like I think both times we were above average and didn't make the second day. So that was frustrating. ⁓ so maybe one year off will be a good break where we can come back stronger potentially in in twenty twenty seven. So but yeah, I love yoga, so it'll be really fun and and relaxing with my mom. So yeah. You think it's fair to say that your mom is the least ⁓ bridge enthused of the of the of the Kleznick four? I don't know if I would go that far to be honest. I mean, I don't know that she doesn't play quite as much at like the high competitive level and I don't think she enjoys that aspect of the game as much. But she loves teaching bridge and is an amazing bridge teacher. So she does a lot of lessons in the LA area, ⁓ mostly to beginners. And I think also her teaching both me and Finn how to play is a lot of why we, you know, first started loving the game. So she definitely loves the game and loves teaching it. ⁓ So she has, you know, a strong passion for bridge, just in a slightly different way, I would say. Your mom's really sweet. She's she's the one I I got to know the the most recent ⁓ but ⁓ Yeah, she's where's the yoga retreat gonna be ⁓ gonna be held? It'll be in Puerto Vallarta in Mexico. So we'll be really fun. Yeah. A week long retreat. So I'm excited. Yeah, my mom and I've done a couple yoga retreats before. ⁓ And they're always a blast and really relaxing where you're like, Well, yeah, all I need to be perfectly relaxed is, you know, four hours of yoga a day, a private chef cooking for me and no job or responsibilities and, you know, access to a beach to go swim at. ⁓ that's the secret to perfect relaxation. So but it's really nice to do, you know, ⁓ whenever we can just to kind of reset and refocus. So it'll be fun. Well, ⁓ you know, you guys all are a ⁓ a huge asset to Bridge and ⁓ I was definitely rooting for you guys in the finals of the ⁓ of the mixed. ⁓ you were you and Adam came down for my surprise fiftieth birthday party in April. ⁓ I was not expecting that. ⁓ and that that ⁓ yeah, made it easy to to root for you guys. It was it is tough though, you know, when you're friends with ⁓ But but it also exciting to see, you know, like your friends all, you know, doing so well. No, exactly. I know it it's it was really fun to be on the other side of it because now I've had I've had quite a few times where I'm like rooting for Adam where he's, you know, having a great run of it. A couple of times recently with you, ⁓ you know, both in Sweden and then also in the Platinum pairs where I'm like, Go, go, go. You know, you have the running scores and everything and then off obviously for him at the World Championships last year. So it was really, really fun to actually be be playing with him this time and and have us be in in position for for the for the win and a medal. So it was great to be on both sides. Yeah, that platinum pairs final. We were leading for like the first ten boards or something, I think. Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the pairs ended up just having kind of a like a super, super whoever won it that year had a really, really strong final segment, which was hard to beat. But I know I was like, ⁓ my gosh, I was rooting hard for you guys. But I mean third place is still like such a great finish. ⁓ Super super awesome. So I bet you were thrilled. I know. I know Adam was super thrilled. Yeah. Obviously, you know, you want to win, but still like ⁓ you know. I pitched a board against your brother badly. ⁓ it was like probably the third to last round or fourth to last round. And just did something I didn't think. And I just now gave him like all the tricks and like a parts score. Yeah. It was like, ⁓ They always stick with you when you don't win, especially. Like from the GNT where we came in second, we had a huge lead going into the second half. And on like the second to last board of the third segment, I had a very costly, like huge mind loss. Like I think it was like a it might have been lose more than 17 imps where I just got I I got confused with one of Adam's bids and I bit a grand slam off an ace, doubled, and they were in slam in the other room. So it was just it was very, very bad. and we ended up losing by five. And so we could have done it in the last segment, but that, you know, boards like that just like stick with you for so long when it's like the difference like that. But luckily it doesn't happen as much. ⁓ you just remember the good boards when you win. So it's good to have have a mix but ⁓ but yeah so it definitely can relate to some of the that was the funny thing about the the the hand where they did seven spades in the Edmunds match is that they they play they played in game it the other day. Yep. Yeah. That was that was a crazy hand. I know that's where I was like at the end I was like I think everyone in that match had had at least one board where they were like What was I doing? You know, where I'm sure Klukowski was was not thrilled with himself when, you know, he thought for a long time before bidding seven spades. And then I think probably first when I doubled, and then when they went minus 500 for both of those, he was not feeling his best. ⁓ yeah, it was a tough hand. But it was, it was a weird hand from my perspective where I had two aces and a king. And I doubled ultimately, but I'm like. There's a good chance they could also just be making this. Like you realize it's totally possible because clearly a lot of distributional hands for I had a seven card suit and you know, clearly nobody's bidding a slam or a grand slam when they have like, you know, so many obvious losers and and sure enough, it actually it came down to the lead, I think, whether seven spades made or not. So it was good I doubled because I got Adam off the off the heart lead. Yeah. So which would which would have let it make so was was definitely much better. Yeah. 'Cause it gives them the I think so, yeah. I was I was looking back at it so it 'cause the tempo I think goes the other way. If ⁓ she can rough out my ace in a heart and then I think she can just fully basically cross rough the hand to make it. Wow. Yeah. ⁓ my gosh. Was was was good. He he I doubled and he found a minor lead and then we were able to to get it down to. So it was was definitely all around. ⁓ we had I had a sigh of relief on that board a little bit again to to kind of compensate for for some of my ⁓ you know, my too quick defensive play of U boards previous. So yeah, was a crazy segment. Yeah. I you guys definitely were not in the lead at the point that they were bidding that hand. No. And I knew we weren't. I knew for sure we were behind at that point 'cause we I knew we'd already blown our our like buffer there. ⁓ so yeah, I was definitely yeah, it's it's always funny 'cause there's some sets where the imps are all because of amazing plays, and then there's some sets where the imps are all because of like suboptimal plays. ⁓ And this was definitely one of those sets where I think basically all of the imps were because of of mistakes rather than than phenomenal plays. you know, I mean they obviously go hand in hand, but I think there is a lot of declare play ⁓ decisions to be made that, you know, people where the winning action was not necessarily taken ⁓ during that set and then a couple during the bidding as well. So yeah, never feel the best about those kind of segments, but Luckily, yeah, for us we were able to to hold on to the to the lead there. Well, well done for you for refocusing because that's that can be really hard, particularly in a world championship final. I I I don't I mean I ⁓ Yeah. No, it was definitely crazy where it's like, you know, you know that a medal one way or the other is on the line. and you know, but yeah. It's ⁓ it's why it's so important though to be able to like ⁓ no, no, we're like we're the quarter final, whatever, you know. But ⁓ it was definitely like, I mean, by far our closest match. And you know, well, there was a lot of the the fourth quarters were very exciting. Like in our ⁓ let's see, it was the round of 16 match. We'd had like a pretty solid lead all the way up to the last segment. And, you know, you kind of expect like, okay, we'll just kind of have some normal results here that here and there, and you know, get through this. And there was like Only wild, crazy hands. Like, you know, you're like, it doesn't happen that often where you play in, I think I was it was spades, five spades doubled, making like six or seven. And you're like, I think this is a loss. Like, I'm pretty sure we lost him on this point. And sure enough we had, because you know, when teams are down a lot, they're swinging. And so when all these slams are on, ⁓ you always are a little bit worried, but And and actually in that match, I think we almost didn't win. One of the slams that the opponents had bid, ⁓ they could have just made, but they decided before drawing Trump to use one of the dummy entries to take a a finesse in one of the suits where they they were always gonna take the finesse, but if they'd drawn Trump and taken the finesse, then they would have just made it. ⁓ But they took the finesse first and now Adam was actually able to work out that I'd had a singleton in the suit they finessed and give me my rough to beat the slam ⁓ to win seventeen. And I think that was ⁓ ends up being the match that ended, which was not what we would have expected going into that that last segment ⁓ at all. So yeah, there was a lot of wild fourth quarters for sure. How long did it take him to give you the give you your rough? It took a bit of time, but he did manage to get there. But it was it was funny from my perspective 'cause sometimes, you know, like from you as the other defender's position, it's so obvious and it's like, Come on, why aren't you playing? You know, and you just have to sit there calm, not show anything, but in your mind you're like, What are you even thinking about? But this this I actually knew exactly what he was thinking about. I knew his exact problem and I I really and I thought I was like, you know I I can't even blame him if he doesn't give me my rough because, you know, he has to play for this like really specific thing to be happening and her to kind of have gotten the timing a little bit off. ⁓ but finally he actually worked it out. And I was thinking, like, yeah. I was I was thrilled, obviously. But ⁓ but yeah, definitely from from the other perspective, I I knew exactly what he was thinking about, you know, like what her more likely shape was. And I think it came down ultimately to the spot she played to in her hand. She had ace. ⁓ Between ten eight or something like that. And or maybe she'd played to the eighth spot in her hand, but Adam just was like, There's no way she took a first round like at trick two. There's no way she hooked Emma for like Jack and one here at trick two, just be too weird. ⁓ so he was able to kind of work it out finally from that inference. But ⁓ yeah, there was a lot of crazy ends like that. So yeah, it was fun. All right, final question. Final question. Thank you so much for being here. When's the next time you're gonna play bridge? I don't care if it's like the World Championships, NABC, Speedball, like when's the next time you're planning to play Bridge? ⁓ I mean probably sometime tomorrow. I tend to play at least a couple of hands every single day. So just to try to like get some practice in. ⁓ I will be playing in San Diego. I think that'll be my next in person tournament, if I'm not mistaken. Unless I play some random day at a sectional or regional over the weekend, which can definitely happen. But yeah, I tend to play bridge online basically every single day. ⁓ it's not always the most high quality of bridge, but I ⁓ I love the game and it it's always fun. So always play a little bit. So when you play tomorrow, you'll play like with a computer partner or with ⁓ with a human being? Probably with a computer partner tomorrow. I tend to play Like whenever I have time, I tend to play the there's like a women's online event on BBO where you win money. So it's how I fund any other like speedballs I play. So, you know, if you get like a above a sixty percent or something, which I typically do, you win like five dollars or something. So So it's how I fund It's like a a dollar to play, I think. So I tend to to average my my net EV is usually around like four to five dollars. So easy way to fund fund other tournaments I play with with human partners. ⁓ but yeah. It was fun. All right. Emma Klesnik, thanks. It's been a treat. Yes, it was great talking to you and everything, and thanks much for having me.