John McAllister chats with 35-year-old Owen Lien of Oak Park MI about Junior Bridge, directing on BBO, playing professionally and reaching highs and lows in national events. Owen has won two limited NABC events: The 10K Swiss in 2016 and the 0–5000 Mini Spingold in 2009. He was second in those same events in 2014 and 2007.
A Platinum Life Master with over 18,000 masterpoints – 10,000 of them gold and 2100 platinum – Owen is a hardworking player who loves the game and still plays for fun at the club.
[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, I'm here today with Owen Lien.
[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I first met Owen back in 2012 at the World Use Team Championships where he was playing
[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_02]: with Kevin Dwyer on the USA1 Under-2016.
[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He is now a professional bridge player and director.
[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Recently, we both played in a speedball which is a 12-board game on BridgeBase Online.
[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Owen and his partner Drew Cavalier had a massive score of 80.25mps in 12 boards,
[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_02]: which I had never seen something so high.
[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It was really that that made me want to interview you here for the setting trick, Owen.
[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Congratulations on that.
[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure it's going to be at the top of your resume and it's a pleasure to have you as my guest.
[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, that game was insane.
[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't even that we did anything spectacular, just our opponents kept falling over themselves.
[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_04]: One of the heads there in six spades called for six and then went down four.
[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_04]: So on the other hand, the guy jumped over with all his four diamonds and he was four triple three.
[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Hadn't one of you opened a no-trop deal?
[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_04]: My partner had opened a no-trop and I invited him.
[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_04]: The other guy comes in with four diamonds with four triple three and I'm like, uh, I double.
[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_02]: You're going down.
[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_02]: How many diamonds did that partner have?
[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Three.
[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Dummy came down with three and I had three and my partner had it open to no-trom.
[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, wow, that's a lot of diamonds than Dummy.
[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_04]: How do you have so many?
[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I actually saved.
[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I took some screenshots so I was texted.
[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So I played in the same event and I think we got third.
[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We had like 27 IMPS and you had 80.
[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I actually saved some of the screenshots from our conversation because I was asking you about it and you said,
[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you said was unbelievable.
[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And you said it like, you said like twice.
[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You said was unbelievable.
[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So we'll include that in the show notes.
[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're doing this conversation at 11 a.m.
[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Eastern per year request.
[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just wondering if you're playing, so today is Thursday, September 19th.
[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you playing in the online NABC thing or whatever that is?
[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm not.
[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_04]: I just have to work at one so I figured.
[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_04]: 11 o'clock would leave me a lot of time in between.
[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Got it.
[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: When you say work, is that bridge work?
[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Directly?
[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you do that?
[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I know you do that on Bridge Base.
[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So are you doing that on the internet or in person somewhere?
[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Before the pandemic I directed regularly at my local club.
[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_04]: But then the game got a lot smaller after the pandemic and I started directing online during the pandemic
[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_04]: and honestly directing online is a lot more convenient.
[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_04]: You don't have to commute, you don't have to clean up.
[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_04]: And you get to do it from the comfort of your own home.
[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_04]: So I just continued with that.
[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_04]: And I only direct on Bridge Base five days a week when I'm home.
[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_04]: If I'm off playing at a tournament, Bridge Base is great on this.
[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I can take whatever time I need.
[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Like they let me do it.
[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_04]: So you know like last month I played four regionals.
[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Three regionals last month.
[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I took all three weeks off of directly online no problem.
[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're winning some of these.
[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I saw, I looked up to your record, you're winning some bracket one events.
[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_04]: While it helps in the teammates like David Granger, Belly Miller, Bobby Levin, like
[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_04]: you know it's a real treat getting the team up with people like that.
[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems like the field though in these events just looking at the regionals you played
[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: like I don't see a bunch of professionals.
[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_04]: So the last one we went to in Irvine, there were not so many professional teams.
[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_04]: But the week before when we were in Santa Clara, there were a ton.
[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.
[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.
[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_04]: But of course you always have at least one or two strong local teams.
[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_04]: And trust me, there are no men's meat a lot of the time.
[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Like they are very capable of beating us.
[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I saw that you played in the Omaha regionals with one.
[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_04]: No he wasn't.
[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I've been to that regional three times now and the only time that I saw him was the first
[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_04]: time I went which was in 2016.
[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_04]: But the other two times have been post pandemic and he wasn't there but he used to go there
[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_04]: and team up with Bill Gates like you'd walk in the room and be like oh there's 150 billion dollars right there.
[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Which was kind of cool.
[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I haven't seen them in the last two years.
[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Who did Buffett partner with?
[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_04]: You know I don't remember.
[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I think he played with Aaron.
[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_04]: That's exactly what I was going to say.
[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Like they had Hammond on the team in the year.
[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I saw them and if I remember correctly they were in bracket two.
[00:06:14] Yeah.
[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_03]: That's not possible.
[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Pretty sure.
[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_04]: That's not possible.
[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I'm going to look it up afterwards and find out.
[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay so do you when you direct on VBO do you direct like the same games when you do this one o'clock?
[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean so you're directing at large.
[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So any game that VBO is running like the speed ball, the 18 board games that take two hours, whatever.
[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Like and we just have a screen where the director calls like someone clicks to call the director there's a little pop up on the side window where these all pop up and we just click them to accept them.
[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_04]: And any reason that the players provide is visible there in the director call.
[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_04]: So like as soon when the director arrives at your table they already know what reason you've provided.
[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And are most of those like somebody's log?
[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm saying a huge majority are East is missing, slow play, no convention card.
[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And if people don't provide a reason which is really not ideal, but 90% of those are players not playing or whatever like.
[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_04]: It's it's it's only it's a real small nine minority of calls that are actual director calls like otherwise it's just okay let's get a sub move on.
[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_04]: How do you get this up?
[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_04]: It's super easy.
[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Like picture yourself on BBO at the table, you have the four names around the table.
[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_04]: We can right click on the player that's not playing or isn't there and this gives us a whole menu one of the options is sub, you know find substitute.
[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And each time we click it invites one person so often times will do that multiple times because that first person is always going to accept.
[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_04]: We just want the first person that always and it doesn't it invites people who have registered as subs, but it does so random.
[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like the director doesn't know who's getting invited.
[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So if he get us if you get a sub as your partner and you're not happy, don't be mad with the director.
[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you what do you do when you get like a call about cheating?
[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, so these are not uncommon.
[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_04]: So we often review and it's not really up to the director to make that determination BBO has its own ethics team to investigate these things.
[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And we have a very easy way of like forwarding the hand of them with any comments that we want to add.
[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And then at some point that pair does get investigated with an internal report and everything and BBO makes own determination.
[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, I don't.
[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So is Edgar used for that or is that separate?
[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. I don't believe Edgar is used for it.
[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's just an eyes on like a human does the investigation rights report and makes their own determination.
[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And so if if somebody says something to you, a player says something to you about somebody they thought cheated there, you will it will go to some sort of review by BBO.
[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_04]: But like I said, it's all done internally. So you report an opponent because you think they're cheating.
[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_04]: The director is going to forward the hand and that's the last year going to hear of it.
[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And for the director to it's not like your leg.
[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And remember the wheels of justice grind slowly so it's not going to happen overnight.
[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's one of my frustrations. I filled out a fair amount of quarter forms from hands on BBO.
[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I play a decent amount of speedballs.
[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And like it would be nice.
[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I think this Edgar thing is great.
[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, obviously, like it would be nice to know like what happens with people that I file a quarter forms because I don't.
[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like it's de incentivizing the fact that if I fill out recorder forms, like it just it goes into the ether.
[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like I don't really get any response.
[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like if I did get some response that it would be like absolutely like, you know, I mean, I did get one.
[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I filed a I filled a recorder form out for Sharon Anderson and her husband who got who got who got like prosecuted.
[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was that was cool.
[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it wasn't cool, but it was just like I didn't couldn't believe that I was filling it out based on her resume.
[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, but the fact that they got caught was validating right.
[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_04]: The only thing I would say is, like first of all, BBO does not share the results of our investigation with a CBL players are entitled to fill out an ACVL recorder form on the ACVL site for hands that occur on BBO because these are a CBL sanctioned
[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_04]: gink, but just know that the form you fill out on BBO where you know you go send abuse report.
[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_04]: That does not go to ACVL.
[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So anything you report just to BBO, it's not going to show up like you unless ACVL investigates them for whatever reason they're not going to show up on the ACVL disciplinary list.
[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_04]: You won't see them on any list, but I will say my personal experience playing on BBO is I find myself reporting a lot fewer pairs than it was say four years ago.
[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_04]: So it feels like the problem pairs are slowly going away.
[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So you know of people that have gotten like banned?
[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah, like this guy that used to play that plays at my local club got banned from BBO.
[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, right.
[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe he's I'm not sure if he's allowed back on there or not.
[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think he's allowed to play in the ACVL games on there.
[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_04]: But and he suffered a suspension from the ACVL as well.
[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Like for that, for his online cheating.
[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_04]: That's what it was.
[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I definitely know people who were doing it on it.
[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_04]: It said this guy was the director of my club represented it.
[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_04]: He's he immigrated here.
[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_04]: But before moving here, he had represented his country and international competition.
[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_04]: So really it just shows you that it could be anyone.
[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So one of the things I wanted to do before having you almost look up if that was because I was the highest score your 80.25 is the highest score that I had seen.
[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I was personally curious.
[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that a record?
[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a record for me.
[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So I reached out to BBO support and Diana, I told and Diana is the person to respond and she was very excited to hear that we're having you on the podcast.
[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_02]: She was she was very.
[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she was big supporter of yours.
[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So they don't have like a complete record, but they had they had it for two years.
[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_02]: They had for like 2022 and like 2019 or something.
[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there were two people in 2022 that scored higher than you guys, but not in the other year.
[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I've had 50 before that was a lot.
[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, no, I mean, I was surprised that that wasn't a record.
[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I do some work with the like.
[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, so yeah, I definitely know who she is.
[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I haven't met her in person yet.
[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_04]: She was at the Toronto Nationals.
[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I heard that I just missed her.
[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_04]: I heard that, you know, we both know David Saperin who's like pretty much the head director on BBO.
[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh really?
[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't know that.
[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_04]: So so we, you know, communicate a lot electronically.
[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a good team over there at BBO.
[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's nice.
[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm.
[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_02]: You played speaking of Toronto, you play with the you play with the Swedish guy.
[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: You've been playing with this guy, O'Neilson for first in years.
[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: How did that?
[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_04]: So, um, off had your own kind of dissatisfied with his previous partner.
[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And so he asked a friend of mine, uh, Will Ellers from Florida.
[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, he's in New Jersey now.
[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_04]: But at the time I think he's in Florida if he would become his partner.
[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, Will has a full-time job of his own.
[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_04]: He's not really interested in being full-time bridge bro.
[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And he told all if he wasn't interested, but he said he should ask me because well,
[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_04]: it will have been a captain of a junior team I was on in 2011 in Croatia and we had played some together.
[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And so off did end up asking me, uh, and we played our first national together in Las Vegas in 2019.
[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Excuse me.
[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, yeah, we have a like, I love playing with these.
[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_04]: He's a lot of fun.
[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_04]: He's a little bit crazy in the system department.
[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, yeah, I've had to change my thinking on some things just because it's like he has us playing things that nobody else plays.
[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Like we play at two of them major opener is like 11 to 14 with four in that major and a London minor.
[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, like you don't see anyone just as much as this.
[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, so I had to have him tell me like, okay, so if you're making that big, like how do I need to be thinking about it so I can get correct in myself?
[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Because it's not something I'm used to playing.
[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, but it's one of my favorite things like it comes up all the time and puts the opponents under a lot of pressure.
[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_04]: We find their fit quickly.
[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, if we have one and only once was it supposed to be a disaster and the opponent's dropped like two tricks on the fence.
[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_04]: So I will count the one.
[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like, okay.
[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_04]: But they were doubled, I guess.
[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I knew it was bad.
[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I opened like two spades.
[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I had four spades and six clubs and it went past and my partner, but three clubs pass are correct.
[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And it went double on my right.
[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I passed and would pass and my partner redoubled.
[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I had two hearts and a stiff dive.
[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like, oh no, like I have to run from this.
[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I ran the three hearts.
[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God.
[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And some lousy for down one.
[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I even had a good and I like ace fourth of spades, ace King Jack six the clubs.
[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like it wasn't like I had some joke.
[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_04]: What would he had two spades in the stiff club use five five in the red suits.
[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Imagine now he felt having to bid three clubs pass and correct.
[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_04]: But hey, like look at it.
[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_04]: He had only one but I had six good ones we were unlucky to rock that they were actually five on offside.
[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_04]: So they were able to double us.
[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Were you open the same you play the same thing vulnerable or not.
[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_04]: This this one was vulnerable.
[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_04]: So it was looking really scary.
[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God.
[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, I and previously when I had a partnership with Zach Braskill we played a relay precision system which I always loved and that's the basis.
[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_04]: That's basically when I play with all of it's not the same one.
[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a different version.
[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, really precision is just a lot of fun to play.
[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_04]: For those that don't know a relay system is basically like where one hand does just makes artificial bids to ask about their partners shape and strength and whatever.
[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_04]: And then at the end they place the contract.
[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_04]: So the opponents only know about one opposing hand that if if the person who asked all the questions becomes declare it can be a real pain to defend against this kind of system because you know nothing of the Claire's hat.
[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: What's your accident rate with that with the with the surgery.
[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like messing up the relay.
[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I've never played a real system.
[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_04]: So I would say our accident rate is zero with the relays itself.
[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_04]: There are two classes of relay systems you can play like what I call step based system that's systems like biking club or or even the kind of system that Brad and Joe play.
[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Or there's the other class, which is called symmetric relay, which means you know with any given shape say any five four three one at some point you're going to bid three hearts.
[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just the earlier beds to clarify what your suits are.
[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_04]: We play a symmetric system which makes it a lot easier.
[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like, oh I'm five four two two at some point I'm going to bid three diamonds.
[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I just have to remember what the earlier.
[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Our accident rates.
[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's all systems so he doesn't mess it up our accident rate with other parts of the system is also very low now but there was there were back to back nationals or I forgot that we were playing to suited jump over calls.
[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And both of them led to disaster.
[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And after the second one one of my teammates said hey oh and rather than taking 10 seconds after the jump over call.
[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Why don't you take it before you make it and remember when you're playing.
[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_04]: That was fair because one of them led to what a 19m plus I think and we lost that match by one.
[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_04]: So that that was really brutal.
[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_04]: And I was playing guest of like they opened the spade or a heart sorry they open a heart and I just had had a week jump over calling clubs.
[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I bid three clubs but that shows spades and diamonds so that's where that.
[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah be careful.
[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Was it a Swiss match or a Swiss gold match?
[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, oh my God.
[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_04]: We lost two of Moiles by one.
[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow so that that it was.
[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_03]: It was it was brutal.
[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_04]: But I tell you what since then I have never forgotten it.
[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_04]: That was two years ago.
[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_04]: So I feel a lot like okay getting in the freeing clear.
[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Who is your client for me on.
[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, he was not very happy that.
[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't seen Erica.
[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_04]: No, he has really been playing.
[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_04]: He's I've seen him at a couple of regionals out in California recently.
[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_04]: He played with Carlos Pellegrini in Sacramento back in May and then in Santa Clara just a couple weeks ago he was playing with my aforementioned Parker from Sweden off.
[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, other than that I haven't seen him.
[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_04]: You know since Ulf and I now team up with other people I don't know if it's just he can't find a pair he's satisfied with tuning up with or what.
[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah.
[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It's expensive hiring bridge pros I know I know that for a fact.
[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It is.
[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if that I wonder if the match that you lost to spin gold on this 19 emperor was.
[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_02]: That was a lot.
[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_04]: No, we played the next national in Phoenix.
[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like it was it was more our decision to explore other opportunities than than his like he didn't he didn't fire us.
[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_04]: He might have wanted to but he didn't.
[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's man.
[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02]: That's tough.
[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_04]: But he's an interesting fellow he's he can be a great teammate but you can also just be a real difficult one.
[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Who's not a difficult teammate when your teammates have a disaster to lose a spangled match by one.
[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I would be happy.
[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You also won you also won your round of 16 match in the team trials as well.
[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah.
[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_04]: But oh wow yeah that that was exhilarating as playing with Aaron Jones and at the other table we had Josh Don who was rotating with R.C. Barghera and Bill Bailey.
[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And we were up against I forget the captain's name, but he was playing with Michael Camel and they had Robinson I think Steve Garner was playing with David Burt Woods and
[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Finn Klesnik with Ishtamati and is a top C tourney match that swings all over the place.
[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_04]: But after 120 boards we came out ahead by one.
[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Whoo.
[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Now the next match please nobody look at the round of eight results.
[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't don't go there.
[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's still a crime scene.
[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_04]: You lost to the eventual winner.
[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay yeah that's thank you.
[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_04]: That makes us feel better.
[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_04]: They won every match by a lot too.
[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Except maybe the finals I don't remember but I think every match leading to the finals they won by over 100.
[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any plans to go to Argentina for the World Championships?
[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02]: No I'm not going.
[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll actually be in North Carolina for a regional there but also I'll be visiting family because that's where I'm originally from.
[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Where in North Carolina are you from originally?
[00:26:19] Yeah.
[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah it's like really close to Charlotte.
[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like great I get to go work and go a few days early to see my mom and sister there and then I'll stay a few days after and give us my dad down in the gust of Georgia.
[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_04]: That would be great.
[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I would love to get a Buenos Aires so like I've heard amazing things about the place.
[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_02]: There's not a ton of people that have signed up for like the in-solar events.
[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I looked the other day there are only 12 pairs signed up for the open pairs only three teams for the open teams.
[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean it's at the edge of the earth.
[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a long way to go for anybody unless you're from South America and even if you're like from Columbia.
[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_04]: It's still like a six to seven hour flight.
[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Like yeah.
[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh right.
[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah I'd like to go.
[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I've never been to South America.
[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I was supposed to go to Columbia with you on a team.
[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You should.
[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Anyone who has not been to the South American Championships in there in Columbia.
[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_04]: You should definitely go.
[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_04]: It was best.
[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I was.
[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_04]: It was overall solid.
[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Like yeah because you know when it's in Columbia it's like not far from the U.S.
[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like I mean it's still close but a six hour flight as opposed to going like New York to Columbia I think was like a six or seven hour flight.
[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_04]: But New York to Buenos Aires is like a 12 or 13 hour flight just put it in perspective.
[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a lot closer.
[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's everything is very affordable.
[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_04]: The food was great.
[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_04]: The hospitality was great.
[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And the bridge was good.
[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_04]: So like you know the best teams from South America and a couple of top teams coming from all over really like there were people there from Europe.
[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_04]: North America like it was.
[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And not the schedule is really good to like you play all your bridge basically from one until six and the rest of the day you do what you want to like wake up go have breakfast at the pool.
[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Go play bridge.
[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And then the drinking starts.
[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah I mean definitely recommend it.
[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I am learning to go back next time around hopefully we'll be in color.
[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_04]: No I don't think they're having it so it's like they have the South American Open Championships I think are just every other year just sort of like they do in there.
[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_04]: So I don't think they have anything that's coming here.
[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_04]: But 2026.
[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're both your parents play bridge I played against your dad at the Hillview Regional and your mother is also.
[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_04]: With my parents play my mom doesn't play as extensively as she used to.
[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_04]: You'll notice they just find her at the local club nowadays but my dad still goes to tournaments often you'll find him at the nationals.
[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I think he's going to be in Vegas this fall.
[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I think my mom didn't really want me to learn bridge when I was little because she wanted me to focus on studies but my dad starting when I was like seven trying to get me interested in the game and I just like no no I'm I'm fine with my computer games.
[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_04]: You know you kept trying to find different avenues to get me interested.
[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And finally when I was nine he's like hey guess what you can stay up late if you like.
[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And back then like games were one and seven 30s of staying up late really met at night like when you're nine years old that's like yeah cool.
[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't find out until later that only meant on weekends when we were at Bridge Characters didn't mean to every day.
[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Whatever so that that's how I got my foot in the door got me started playing and then a few years later I was going into high school.
[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I can stay up late anyway.
[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I was really keen on the game and then I was at a sectional in Columbia, South Carolina and someone said to me hey you see that other young guy over there.
[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_04]: You should go talk to him.
[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_04]: He just got back from an all expense paid trip to represent the U.S. and junior bridge in Brazil.
[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I have always loved to travel and I was like all expense paid does that mean free.
[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah yeah so I went over I asked him.
[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I said so what do I got to do to get on one of these teams and say get better.
[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_04]: It was John Hurd who's originally from Charleston, South Carolina that's why he was there but yeah so that lit a fire and there was no one back two years later qualified for my first junior team gets good at being back like all my friends who had made fun of me because
[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I was spending my weekends with old people.
[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I got back and it was like oh teacher asked how was everyone's summer.
[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah I went to the junior bridge captain Salah Keo then I went to the bridge nationals in Chicago and then I was the junior championships in Thailand.
[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Why no one could top that.
[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You play that do you play the nationals with your dad back now.
[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_04]: My dad and I only ever played together at one national and that was the last one that was in New York in 04.
[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_04]: But since then I've just generally played with when I was on the junior team I I've either been working or I was playing with my junior partner most of the time.
[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_04]: But I still often play with friends like I do love the game like yes it's my job but I really love it like I play twice a week at my club just for fun with my friends like I like to have a good time I don't.
[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_04]: When I'm playing on my time I don't care about the results I just want my partner to be nice and have fun.
[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah um gosh I remember the last time I played with my dad.
[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_04]: It's been five six six this year's we got into one session Swiss at the Gatlinburg regional.
[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_04]: It was not planned it just happened.
[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah he and I were right.
[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_04]: He asked me where you asked him.
[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_04]: We'd gotten not the team I was on it got knocked out in the afternoon.
[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_04]: We went back to the house that we were renting cook dinner and we'd invited my dad to join us for dinner that day.
[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And then I was like hey do you want to like join our team for the one session Swiss tonight.
[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And everyone like that.
[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh that's a great idea like okay yeah let's do it.
[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_04]: You know after we had a few drinks at dinner.
[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah we got our ride down to the game and we played we had fun.
[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh hello.
[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah but he and I were regular partners from like I don't know from I don't know when I was like 10 and so I was about 14 or something.
[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_04]: 15 some no 15 yeah 15.
[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_04]: He got me a long way in the game.
[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_04]: He got me started that's the biggest distance right there.
[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah I think he I think I played against him in the top bracket of KO and helmet so he must be like you know pretty serious player.
[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_04]: He I'm not sure what his rank is right now.
[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe around 5000 points I'm not sure.
[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you tell when you like was there a moment when you realize that you were better than he was.
[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Were you competitive with him that way.
[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Definitely.
[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean all I think this is true for all pro bridge players like you just have to have that competitive drive to really do what it takes to get to that level like you know like there's no other real motivation for it.
[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_04]: But I'd say there's a moment where I realized I'd become better than him but I can't say exactly when it was like.
[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I know that in my teens I had a lot of arrogance.
[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_04]: In fact the guy that the other guy that mentored me a lot of blood for Robert's he had a nickname for me ALS for arrogant little shit.
[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Like.
[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm sure that I thought I was better than my dad long before I actually was.
[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_04]: It's also probably not lit completely linear to like you're probably better at some things in your dad but he was probably better than other things because there's so many aspects to the game right like like you can ask a lot of partnerships which one of you is a better player and someone will say like oh he's
[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_04]: better at the bidding and she's better at the play or something like that like.
[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Which is true like.
[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just true for almost all partnerships and it's a good thing like because if your partners.
[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Better than you would certain aspects of the game you will learn from that.
[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And.
[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Vice versa right like.
[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Like one of the best pieces of advice I ever got on how to improve is play with and against people who are better than you.
[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Because even though you know like it's especially I know playing against people who are better than you is not necessarily pleasant for everyone.
[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_04]: But that I asked Joe grew when I was like 15 like hey what piece of advice you have for me to improve my game you said whatever.
[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Tournament you're at going find the toughest possible event to enter.
[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_04]: You'll get your butt handed to you for a while but it's the best way to learn.
[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_04]: And so that's what I did.
[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And he was exactly right.
[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I had my ass kicked for a few years before I started figuring out like because it wasn't the big thing to realize isn't that the top players are doing necessarily doing playing better than you.
[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_04]: It's that they're making fewer mistakes than you but they don't outplay you.
[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_04]: They just make fewer mistakes bridges the game on the stakes.
[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a game you win.
[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a game you don't lose or that it's a game that you lose by making mistakes which when I realized that it really changed my whole mindset about the game.
[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh wow like I just need to stop start eliminating my errors and then it's like OK what which parts of my games are errors which ones are so.
[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So you spoke to John Her at this tournament and then you like really got into it.
[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Like what what avenues did you have back then for like the first couple years back then this the online platform that was most popular was OK Bridge.
[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_04]: So I just went on there like I get home from school and I get on OK Bridge and basically play like with random people for like the next 10 hours.
[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Just trial and error trial and error but I was just going to learn through sheer numbers right like yeah because I didn't really have anyone to learn from.
[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And then I played for a number of years with this guy from Hendersonville North Carolina named Sam Fritzner.
[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_04]: So that very nice guy we were a good B level partnership.
[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway he was friends and with Warren Roberts they knew each other through work.
[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And Warren was the best player in Western North Carolina at the time.
[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And so Sam at some point felt like he had reached his limit like he couldn't wasn't going to continue improving a bridge.
[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_04]: So for him there was no more desire to continue playing.
[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah you know he made that decision.
[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_04]: But he told Warren hey you should take this kid under your wing.
[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_04]: He's going to be something great.
[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_04]: So Warren didn't take me under his wing and took me to a lot of tournaments.
[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_04]: He paid for everything.
[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_04]: It was truly generous like he gave me his knowledge his time.
[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah when I didn't play well he let me know.
[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_04]: But you know I learned I'd say I learned more from him than anyone else.
[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And he was quite a character like we could go to a tournament and play against say the poll you know a bunch of poll Polish experts right Polish pros.
[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And you know if we could do something to get them yelling at each other in Polish it actually wouldn't matter to him if we ended up winning that match or not.
[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Like he just loves seeing them go like that would just make his all day.
[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah like I remember for the first few years we played we played precision and I was over bidding like a maniac.
[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_04]: And at some point as I go and we got to stop playing precision because when you don't open a club you feel like you have carte blanche to bid on whatever it because you've limited your hand.
[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And yet you still don't have your bids.
[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_04]: So he's like we're going to play a system with like no conventions whatsoever so that you learn to have your bids because if you don't want to get punished.
[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And so he made me play a call.
[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Like four card majors week though Trump.
[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_04]: We only the only convention we played over one no Trump was two clubs of stamen.
[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_04]: No transfers no forcing statement.
[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I think we played Jacobi to know just so we'd have a force and made your suit raise.
[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah you play two over one.
[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_04]: No way did you know two over one could be like a seven count like.
[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.
[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_04]: And you know the first day we played that we entered in a Swiss with the likes of Larry Cohen playing with Berkowitz Polish Bros like it was a strong field and we tied for first playing nothing.
[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_04]: It was like oh maybe there is something that is like.
[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's as crazy as the system might be like it might not be the theoretically the best but it's a lot of fun to play because you get to bid a lot.
[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And and you end up with a lot of interesting contracts so it's like oh I better know how to figure out how to play this one.
[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you remember who your who your teammates were for that.
[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_04]: One of their names is on the tip of my tongue.
[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Gosh no this was 16 years ago so.
[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I can tell you in a second if I saw their faces.
[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Is this guy still alive that.
[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_04]: No he passed away in 20 I think it was 2018.
[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_04]: He had he had pulmonary fibrosis and he had a double lung transplant actually right before I met him.
[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's pretty remarkable how long he lived given that because he was told it was like 5050 that he lived five years and he lived he lived 11 so.
[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah he passed away I think it was 2018 it was either 2017 or 2018 it's 2018 for sure.
[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah I we had a like our relationship was one where it was like if we thought the other person that was wrong we would let them know so it could be difficult at times.
[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_04]: But you know I every now and again there'll be some hand where it's like Warren would have loved to hear about this hand and I like have the thought of like oh I'll call him and it's like oh wait I can't.
[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And none of his family plays bridge so it's not like I can I do still have regular contact with this family like they are they are part of my life.
[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I also went and worked for the guy for a number of years is a real estate appraiser.
[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I was there for four and a half years I think is that did bruskel is that the person yes work for that.
[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_04]: It was great.
[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I would have I would have been there longer except I ended up moving to Michigan because I'd met a girl so.
[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And now I've been in Michigan for oh shoot wow.
[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Six more days it'll have been exactly nine years since I moved here.
[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah well.
[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Well yes so Zach bruskel was he was in double dummy.
[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_02]: He's a good friend of yours and unfortunately out of touch so maybe he'll listen to this this podcast and you know you're from.
[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean I he's a very private person that I do chat with him once in a while.
[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So.
[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll probably hate that I'm.
[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_02]: No no.
[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_04]: He and I have even discussed the possibility of playing live bridge together but yeah but it hasn't happened yet I hope it does because he and I had a tremendous partnership.
[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I like I love playing with the guy he's phenomenal player.
[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And we came up with a whole system that we played together which was a lot of fun.
[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah but he stepped away from bridge and we haven't seen him since but.
[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Besides like your professional engagement with bridge both playing and directing like how do you and you said you played for fun at the local club like how do you like.
[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Like do you talk to other bridge players about bridge like like what's your like you're in Michigan.
[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You know are you asking other people about hands that you played.
[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah I regularly do like especially hands that I find problematic.
[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Like there was a hand in a little eight board online challenge match yesterday where we we had to get to five clubs and set a three no and it.
[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I was looking at it I didn't really think there was any reasonable way to do that but.
[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Shoot I'm not I don't know everything so of course like all of my friends ask them like do you think there's a reasonable way to get five clubs and set a three no on the sand and.
[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Now I must really think of a reasonable option that wasn't just something.
[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Did they.
[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_04]: As you know discussing hands with other players so play you know that's how you can improve like you can look at a hand all you want yourself and you might just be overlooking something that's really simple.
[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Or maybe not simple but that might be there and getting someone else's eyes on it might they might see it and be able to share that with you.
[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Was this playing with the robot partner or didn't partner so that makes it even harder that I didn't when I told my friends about it I did not tell them they were playing with a robot because.
[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_04]: I so rarely played with robots that it's like you know I want to I only want to discuss like a practical option that you and I could have.
[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Not that I can have with the robot systems.
[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah how many people did you ask about this about this tail when I asked three and when all of them said it's just so normal to get to three no like.
[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And that they didn't see any way I was like these are three people that I respect very much.
[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_04]: And so I thought okay I won't ask anymore.
[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Because like they open a diamond on my right and I had like a balanced 19 countless King 30 diamonds King Jack my majors were king for the space and ace King Queen for the parts.
[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_04]: So they open a diamond as to Sean over call it.
[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_04]: So I double my part of the clubs and I've been to know didn't love it with King empty 30 diamonds but whatever I've been to know and my partner had ace,
[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_04]: double to Jack, double to Lowe and Queens.
[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like just normal to raise to three no but I thought me my original thing was well maybe I could have human two diamonds over two clubs because really partners like the Queen of diamonds I'd rather play no no Trump from my partner side a lot of the time.
[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but how are going to feel if my partner of its three clubs over that I mean, I love it.
[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I only have two clubs.
[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_04]: But you know, I like no one can come up with an auction where we would get to five clubs rather than three no.
[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Like if I keep it two diamonds my partner would probably just keep it three diamonds.
[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, I've got a good hand but no good bid.
[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, okay, I love it three no over that.
[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, I mean, you can't no one can learn the game all on their own like it's something you learn together.
[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Like so at the end of the day, discuss the hands with your friends with your partner.
[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't be afraid to go ask the bet the better players at your club, which you should have done on a hand that you think you should have done better on.
[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes you'll be surprised and you'll find out that you did the normal thing it might not work but hey, and other times you'll learn something very almost all the top players that I know.
[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Like when I was learning, I don't know.
[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I just would go up to like Rodwell or anyone really and be like hey, may I have a moment of your time that ask about a hand and I don't think anyone ever said no actually.
[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Or if they did it's because they were busy.
[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it wasn't because they didn't want to help me.
[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, into the end of the end of the game at your club.
[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Is there anyone asks someone about go ask the best player in the room.
[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's flattering too when you get asked, you know, like I was at my my local club recently and this guy in the bathroom was like how many hands you think you mess up during a session.
[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, oh man.
[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's you know, probably like more than I would care to admit.
[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, just like showed me that he had like I didn't really know that he you know it was cool.
[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_02]: He was trying to get better because I think that's one of the things for me when I play with somebody like it's really hard to play with somebody who doesn't know what they're doing but they don't have a right.
[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're not like interested in improving.
[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Like as long as somebody has a curiosity about like how they could improve then like I am so happy to talk to that person and possibly play with that person but play with somebody that's not curious.
[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just like it's a non starter.
[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Same here is like I will play with the most novice person at the club if they just show an interest and improve like.
[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Because yeah, like I think it's an excellent point.
[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Like I hear a lot of people are afraid to go up to you know who they view as a top player to ask questions and say no actually you're giving them a compliment by asking like yeah.
[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to ask you the same question I asked Gavin Wilpert.
[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I've got this group of friends who want to learn and we're getting together tonight.
[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Two of them I know through golf once just a friend.
[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_02]: One of them has played bridge before but doesn't remember it really the other one I have no idea and then the third one basically doesn't know cards you know that I mean doesn't has not really played in the games.
[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_04]: So what would be your would be your format for these this trio that that last person you mentioned is probably the biggest challenge because it's like if you've not played a trick taking game before bridges probably not a starting point.
[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I know that when I was before I started learning to play bridge.
[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_04]: I played a lot of spades like yeah.
[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_04]: I might start there.
[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean you might try like start by explaining the concept of bridge value any soup can be trumps and then you know Trump.
[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And and then like just so they grasp the idea of trick taking game and play some spades.
[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I know you all have a dummy but that's not critical.
[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_04]: You can also play on what's got it.
[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_04]: I've heard it called chat bridge before where it's like well it's exactly what you would think it is.
[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_04]: You sit there like you're playing bridge but you know you discuss things you show each other your cards while you're going through because it's a learning process.
[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not like these people know how to play right like yeah like you know the guys there and it's a certain debate and he has no clue what to do what else is he supposed to do like show his hand and now all three of you could.
[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_04]: All three of them could learn as you try to explain like OK well you would want to do this because of this.
[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_04]: That that would if you're trying to start with bridge I would definitely go that route I would not go into the rules at all for the start like look.
[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_04]: You go into the rules of bridge it's a non starter for so many people just because they're they're con diluted like.
[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_04]: You might even just not bother with bidding at first right like.
[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Like OK let you just kind of like set a contract or something like.
[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Well and like maybe that's the way to go if you have like a hand a hand generator just generate some hands look at the boards in advance and be like I guess you need a deal in this store but then you could be like OK on this one the contract is going to be this.
[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You think I should just not even bother to get.
[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh don't cancel.
[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_04]: But that's why I thought Spades would be good because you know in spades you have two partnerships you can have some bidding and it'll help your friend grasp the idea of trick taking game trumps partnership.
[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Is there a lot of you are out there in Michigan.
[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean I'm sure there is but I've never played it like.
[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_02]: OK it's not it's a terrible game.
[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like a five five card trick game.
[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh you know I've played it once or twice.
[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_04]: But you know for me I don't know bridges like the gate like all other games are just all other card games for sure are just not as interesting to me.
[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean there are some but like.
[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Like.
[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Barbou was a lot of fun.
[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_04]: But most card games to me I just like if I play them I just view it as like I'm just kind of throwing cards and I'm doing it because I enjoy the company of the people.
[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Bridges such a stimulating game that.
[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_04]: No other game really compares.
[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_02]: How about that.
[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I agree.
[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's one of my favorite things to do.
[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why I probably.
[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's like late at night.
[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I randomly get on like oh who's on like let's see who like this.
[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_02]: We were actually teammates once and.
[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I remember that in Denver.
[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah you and Zach were hot coming in.
[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You guys you guys finished third.
[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think our lead was born.
[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Which is just a huge lead.
[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And we had our first average session of the event.
[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_04]: And the two pairs that overtook us had mid like to say that we had a lead in the final session.
[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Like 65% or better and they as as you can figure out by the fact that they only overtook us at the very end.
[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_04]: It was still close like.
[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Like if if they just had like 62% we would have won.
[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And 65% in the blue ribbon pairs is like unbelievable.
[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah I was like I was very disappointed.
[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean don't get me wrong.
[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Very happy third is a great result.
[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_04]: But it took me a while to realize that I was happy with that.
[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you think you'd won when you when it was over?
[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_04]: It didn't feel like we'd had our worst session of the event like we knew it.
[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's even so it's still average like.
[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_04]: They were.
[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I remember in that event I did something I've only ever done it once but it was a trick I pulled out of Zia's book bridge my way.
[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_04]: He talks about I think they're called Tiger doubles.
[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.
[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_04]: No not check tell me.
[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_04]: This is where like you try to throw the opponents off with like a psychic leap directing double or something.
[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_04]: So I remember vividly I Queen Jack doubleton too low for low five five low I might have had a jack in a mic but anyway they open a heart on my right.
[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I would pass a state past two spades past to know which was asking past the Sanford three spades for the max past for no key card past five parts and now I was saying well I go on my partner to lead either minor like I have nothing there.
[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And but maybe I can throw them off by making them think the hearts are really offside right so and they're they've clearly established spades as their fit so I didn't and they're very unlikely to now stop off and play in five arts doubles especially if they think I have like five good hearts right so I doubled and now the guy on my left had two low hearts.
[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_04]: He knew they had all the key cards except the Queen of Spades but now he thought I have a heart loser and I have to worry about the Queen of Spades so he signs off in five states.
[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay so so he gets a heart lead and it was a dream dummy had ace Queen of Hearts so he didn't finesse he went up with the ace.
[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.
[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_04]: He went up with the ace and then and now that I had all the hearts he played like he had King 1095 the spades opposite ace fourth or something.
[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_04]: So he played low and when he saw an honor come from my hand he won the king and finessed into me because he figured I was shorter in spades and then I let a heart back to my partner's king making five and for around the and around the world top like
[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_04]: only time I've done it and it works so well that I'm just like afraid to ever do it again because it's like wow that was fun.
[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you tell him about it?
[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I did a couple years ago.
[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I was like I did it once but my hand was so perfect for him because it's like so often you have a hand where it's like well I could do this but then you have something like a Queen and a minor where it's like if you have the Queen and a minor you don't mind if
[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_04]: your partner leads away from something that he might produce something here I had nothing in the minor like it was like okay let's try this out.
[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_00]: What was the expression on the on the did you could you what was it how did the person react when you won the one year spade and now play a low heart back.
[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh I think he went something like what what just happened.
[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_04]: That like us that's one of my it was in one of the semifinal sessions so no screens.
[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think there were at the time.
[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_04]: There were the cameras were set up because I remember the camera being there but the there were no screens.
[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_04]: But I do remember.
[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it was in the second semifinal session because we were north south.
[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_04]: You'd have to get find the hand I would I've been sitting north.
[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a there's a part of double dummy like the climax of double dummy is the US team like coming back in the final quarter against Israel to win the semifinal match.
[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah you know what I'm talking about.
[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And like so they've had this huge set and Zach and Adam Groszak are coming out to compare with Adam Kaplan and Zach Breskels and they come out of the door and you say something.
[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_04]: What do you do on the last board.
[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_00]: What did you do in the last board.
[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Zach like yeah he's like joy.
[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah so anybody is just listening to this they can see oh and they can see oh and that climactic scene of double dummy that that was the most amazing thing man just like having a film through there and having them come back in that match like what a what a.
[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah that memory forever in there.
[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_04]: On record.
[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah indeed you played with you play with Kevin Dwyer that right that tournament and look to you guys up you guys had a great bubble.
[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_04]: He and I had a very good partnership together for about seven years.
[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_04]: More.
[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Summary years.
[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah we played together actually again we played in the we teamed up with you make or you and I teamed up with you guys.
[01:07:28] [SPEAKER_04]: That's right and yes.
[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Providence.
[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah we did pretty well.
[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_02]: We were in the top 20.
[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we went in one and knock out.
[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember that.
[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Did we do we play the rising or to get all so I think so.
[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh we didn't qualify for day two of the rising.
[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember that still something I've never achieved.
[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh not even day two.
[01:07:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I've only entered the rising or like two or three times because so often you know my team once by the Swiss.
[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah it's an easier format.
[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_04]: The rising or it's an amazing event.
[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_04]: It's brutal like I remember the first time I played in it.
[01:08:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I was on a team with you.
[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Just around after round world champion after world champion.
[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_04]: After World Silver medalists after like everyone is like just there and they were going to bash your head.
[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Good thing.
[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah and match point or or to match match points on one top.
[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_04]: It is just so brutal.
[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a great but it's it's definitely a different version of bridge.
[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you playing rising or this year do you know.
[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_04]: So no Zagora.
[01:09:08] [SPEAKER_04]: No not not not teaming up with Dan this fall.
[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_04]: We're we're teaming up with Sam Dinkin.
[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Jake Jacob Freeman and Luke for Hays and Jacob or Jason Felton.
[01:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: This is where I was Sam.
[01:09:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah Jacob Freeman.
[01:09:35] [SPEAKER_04]: We had a great time teaming up with Zagora.
[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_04]: It was a lot of fun.
[01:09:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I love both of them both Peter and Dan.
[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_04]: They're fun guys.
[01:09:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And in our last match in the Spengled we lost the round of 16 to Zimmerman.
[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_04]: We kind of dug ourselves a hole in the third quarter.
[01:09:57] [SPEAKER_04]: We're stuck 43 or 44 with the set to go and with five words we were only down 10.
[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Like we we almost did it.
[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_04]: There was a board I made a play that I'll probably never make again.
[01:10:18] [SPEAKER_04]: But so I opened the gambling 3-0.
[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I had ace king queen 10 seventh diamonds and we all pass and they lead King of Hearts I think and dummy had two aces on a stiff diamond and I'm just sitting here thinking about the state of the match.
[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just like I did.
[01:10:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I did and and and Brink on my right such a great guy as soon like of course I thought for a long time a trick one before I made the play he's like he as soon as I put the 10 and diamonds on the table he didn't make me wait for the satisfaction he put the other three including the jack on the table.
[01:10:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Like so.
[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_04]: You mean that he was he was in front of he was in front of them and as soon as I hooked he showed me the rest of them like well done like yeah.
[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh wow.
[01:11:08] [SPEAKER_04]: That's good.
[01:11:10] [SPEAKER_04]: You know that it was like oh and then I got annoyed because I looked at the view graph record later on and the view graph operator just had me playing load of the ace and claiming.
[01:11:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I was like yeah I contacted BBO I'm like can you get this fixed and they didn't get it fixed so that made me happy but it's like Brink was such a great sports and like when I made that play he's like even pumped his fists and said this is what bridge is about like yeah.
[01:11:46] [SPEAKER_04]: That's cool.
[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And you know I figured at the time like if things were going well we're still down 25 or 30 and there was this board and only five more against one of the best teams in the world like.
[01:12:01] [SPEAKER_04]: It just felt like this is not a team that was going to be giving up and so I thought okay I know it's a big position but I feel like if diamonds are three two or just not meant to win this match.
[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So I let's play the big play and Steve Landon Steve Landon talked about doing that once he had opened a gambling tree now playing it in the regional and he talked about how he did that once there was right.
[01:12:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Amazing.
[01:12:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't imagine ever making that play again.
[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Honestly.
[01:12:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Because really like if you're making that play it means you're you're in a bad position. I don't want to be in it. I don't want to put myself in a bad position in the future.
[01:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah that's like going back to John her he actually texted me while we're having this conversation because I'd asked him to be on the show so it's funny. Yeah you're talking about him.
[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: He texted me like a little bit before he said it. But there was a hand I remember playing against him and he like I like had a queen guest and I played him for I played I played as partner for now he gives me the slow the slow roll.
[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like we don't slow roll.
[01:13:24] [SPEAKER_04]: It reminds me of the sand I was playing as a sectional. And we get to seven now where dummy had shown a solid suit. Okay.
[01:13:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And they didn't lead the suit. So I dummy actually had a East King Jack 10 8. I thought they'd shown the queen. They didn't have it. And I thought kind of weird like that this person over here didn't lead the make the safe lead.
[01:13:52] [SPEAKER_04]: So I won the lead all in low to the jack and trick tuned the game. My rights and Jack and then he played well. And I like like I knew he was not happy that I'd made this play like and it was Queen third like she should have made the lead.
[01:14:17] [SPEAKER_04]: My opponent should have made the lead anyway. I have that suit because dummy had a solid suit like right. How is this not safe.
[01:14:30] Yeah.
[01:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to ask you something else.
[01:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, shoot.
[01:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[01:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Now I'm fresh out.
[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_02]: All right man.
[01:14:48] [SPEAKER_04]: This is a lot of fun. Thank you for inviting me.
[01:14:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, man. Cool. It's I'm it. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It was it was it was an easy ask.
[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, and if you remember the question, I can pop back on and do it.
[01:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[01:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[01:15:06] [SPEAKER_02]: That's good man. Good to see you. I'll be in touch when we got this thing coming out and you know, take a look at these two.